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LuxBlue
21st June 2013, 01:41
Hey gang, after seeing this post

http://xlforum.net/vbportal/forums/showthread.php?p=4463909#post4463909

about stators getting whacked I investigated and used Aaron's from Hammer Performance recomendation about using a series regulator rather than the OEM shunt regulator our Sportys come with. I purchased a Cycle Electric series regulator from Hammer Performance and I will get it tomorrow and install it this weekend.

The difference between, a shunt regulator like our OEM and a series regulator is that the shunt regulator bypasses or "shunts" unused AC current from the stator to ground, even if our bike's system doesn't need the supplied AC current after rectification and regulation for charging the battery or running the lights, ignition, etc. That means the stator is always working "balls to the wall" and putting out max current...some to the DC system after the regulator rectifies and regulates it and the rest to ground.

I wanted to see this in action so I borrowed this from work...

a Fluke AC/DC clamp meter.

http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii267/F86sabre_bucket/100_1018_zps2495fa23.jpg

It has clamp jaws that are attached, or can be removed for remote measuring. Pretty cool!

http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii267/F86sabre_bucket/100_1019_zpsa5356627.jpg


I started the bike, (it was already warmed up from my ride home), and clamped the meter's jaws on to one of the AC leads coming from the stator to the OEM shunt rectifier.

http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii267/F86sabre_bucket/100_1020_zpsda0d2310.jpg

I let the bike run for a minute to get the battery voltage up to 13.9 VDC so the only load on the regulator was the lights and ignition...about 9 amps. At idle, (around 950 rpm), the stator was already putting out more than the bike needed and shunting the rest to ground.

http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii267/F86sabre_bucket/100_1022_zps5bf233d9.jpg

When I ran the RPMs up to over 2000, the stator was at full output, about 26 amps.

http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii267/F86sabre_bucket/100_1024_zps1ce909cd.jpg

So, the OEM shunt regulator works as adverised and keeps the stator busy all the time.

The new series regulator I'm getting will only use what is needed by the DC system and let the stator breathe easy when it doesn't need to work so hard.

After the install I will post my findings and pics of the series regulator in action.

aswracing
21st June 2013, 03:38
Good info Lux, thanks for sharing. I'm looking forward to the same measurements with the series regulator.

Bob s hog
21st June 2013, 03:39
a crap I knew I for got to do something. but I did test it at idle will get more info for you but at my batt volts were 14.4 at idle 1000 rpm didn't do a amp test just yet but I will can fell a hp improvement thought weathere it be the new stater or both the new reg and stater but the bike runs smother and faster or im crazy.

Rico 05R
21st June 2013, 03:46
Scott...what's the Cycle Electric Part#?

LuxBlue
21st June 2013, 11:57
Scott...what's the Cycle Electric Part#?

Hey Rico!

Sorry, I seemed to have misplaced the actual Cycle Electric Part #. I'll post it here tonight when I get the regulator, provided it's stamped on somewhere or on the packaging.

If you order from Hammer Performance, the part # is 2112-0393. That's what I used when I ordered. See below:

http://www.hammerperf.com/images/regulators.jpg

07XL1200N
21st June 2013, 12:24
Wow. That's a lot of amps it's putting out for no reason.

vspkent
21st June 2013, 13:04
Has anyone dissected a inop stator to see what failed on it ? Back in the day when I worked as a shop boy at a Alt/Starter rebuilder I saw many cheap solder joints fail on stators from heat.

Kent

Jimg
21st June 2013, 13:28
Has anyone dissected a inop stator to see what failed on it ? Back in the day when I worked as a shop boy at a Alt/Starter rebuilder I saw many cheap solder joints fail on stators from heat.

Kent

Good question. I doubt the stator much cares what it's putting out. Getting the load off the engine would be the attraction for me.

Rico 05R
21st June 2013, 13:40
Thanks Scott.

Bob s hog
21st June 2013, 14:01
it melts the wires about 1 inch from stator and load on the stator is every thing, why they run it to ground is stupid , you would never ask this out of a car alt because it would do the same thing once the systems fully charged the amps should go down to 4-5 amps but on a Harley system there is no break for the stator it littery working its ass of for nothing and I hope its nice this week end im woundering if my fuel milage will go up because with the new reg my stator wont be working it ass off .

rejeanprimeau
21st June 2013, 14:10
Same topic here.

How a permanent magnet system, our stator, can be control by a gizmo ??? The alternator has to be induced to be capable of changing is input. Snake oil on those system. The wording is just like made to sell, for an example: a relay or a selenoid switch; can someone explain me the difference. A shunt is more mechanical and a serial is more electronic. So you decide to install a electronic shunt on your alternator.

LuxBlue
21st June 2013, 14:51
Wow. That's a lot of amps it's putting out for no reason.

Amps = heat = stress failure on stator and regulator. Amps also = loss of HP. Not much, but if you are dumping 15 extra amps to ground....15 amps X 13.6 volts = 204 watts = .27 HP.

LuxBlue
21st June 2013, 14:54
Same topic here.

How a permanent magnet system, our stator, can be control by a gizmo ??? The alternator has to be induced to be capable of changing is input. Snake oil on those system. The wording is just like made to sell, for an example: a relay or a selenoid switch; can someone explain me the difference. A shunt is more mechanical and a serial is more electronic. So you decide to install a electronic shunt on your alternator.

Posted this on the other thread too:

A more accurate term for a series regulator would be a "switching" regulator. No snake oil here...the electronics in the series regulator only draws or "loads" the stator output when it needs power. Any other time the load on the stator is reduced by switching off when the DC system is satisfied. This switching action occurs rapidly, resulting in a steady "need only" AC current output from the stator. The regulator can ramp up the AC current to the max if needed but throttles down to what it needs only any other time.

milmat1
21st June 2013, 14:56
I read that earlier as well and thought the same thing. Good For You for doing this. Cant wait to see the results. If the stator is at load all the time there must be a HP or two hiding there. In fact once we get some real numbers I may be able to calculate (close) how much power is being wasted...

SUSCRIBED !

milmat1
21st June 2013, 15:01
Amps = heat = stress failure on stator and regulator. Amps also = loss of HP. Not much, but if you are dumping 15 extra amps to ground....15 amps X 13.6 volts = 204 watts = .27 HP.

Guess I should have read the whole thread first huh.....LOL

But that is what I was driving at...

Heck we will fiddle all day with an air cleaner for .2hp....:shhhh

DUALLS
21st June 2013, 15:03
LuxBlue I have a feeling if this turns out like I'm hoping,then there will be a run on these regulators!!

LuxBlue
21st June 2013, 15:19
I read that earlier as well and thought the same thing. Good For You for doing this. Cant wait to see the results. If the stator is at load all the time there must be a HP or two hiding there. In fact once we get some real numbers I may be able to calculate (close) how much power is being wasted...

SUSCRIBED !

Milmat...I did the math in an above post but I'm not sure of what the loaded AC voltage output from the stator is?

Do you know?

The regulator rectifies the AC into DC but the stator has to output more than the 13.5 to 14 volts the DC system needs. All the regulators I ever worked with need a substantially higher AC input voltage to get the desired regulated DC output. So, if an OEM stator say, puts out 20 volts AC X 15 extra amps to ground, that would equal 300 lost watts. 300 / 746 watts (watts in a HP) would be about .4 HP lost through heat. Hey, every little bit helps. If the AC voltage is even higher, the HP loss would be more. I originally calculated the watt loss using 13.6 volts as my example but it has to be higher than that.

LuxBlue
21st June 2013, 15:23
Guess I should have read the whole thread first huh.....LOL

But that is what I was driving at...

Heck we will fiddle all day with an air cleaner for .2hp....:shhhh

Whoops, we posted over each other! Let me know if you know the loaded AC volts of the stator. Most bikes, unless they're really loaded up with goodies, don't draw more than 10-12 amps after the battery gets charged back up from starting, so an OEM shunt regulator is, in most cases sapping at least 14 - 16 amps to ground!

Matty
21st June 2013, 16:26
I may be in line for one of these as well. Can one of you guys please clarify my thinking for me. Since these are permanent magnet alternators, they do not require a field wire. And since the stator is stationary, no brushes are required. This is the logic I have buried my head in the sand about, but it seems like a prudent issue to address with 39K miles on the ride. It seems to me it's not a matter of if, but when the excess heat generated by this system eventually takes out a component in the system, either the stator or the regulator.

If this is the case, then it's not a matter of if, but when I have the money to call Aaron to order the correct parts.:D

LuxBlue
21st June 2013, 17:42
I may be in line for one of these as well. Can one of you guys please clarify my thinking for me. Since these are permanent magnet alternators, they do not require a field wire. And since the stator is stationary, no brushes are required. This is the logic I have buried my head in the sand about, but it seems like a prudent issue to address with 39K miles on the ride. It seems to me it's not a matter of if, but when the excess heat generated by this system eventually takes out a component in the system, either the stator or the regulator.

If this is the case, then it's not a matter of if, but when I have the money to call Aaron to order the correct parts.:D

You are correct about your thinking. There is no field to regulate the stator output, it's a permanent magnet setup. A series regulator switches on and off depending on needed load. A series regulator is way more complicated than a shunt regulator as far as electronics goes but does not sink a lot of heat and is obviously more efficient.

LuxBlue
21st June 2013, 17:46
LuxBlue I have a feeling if this turns out like I'm hoping,then there will be a run on these regulators!!

Quite possible! I'll get mine installed this weekend and post the data. I'm just hoping the series regulators pan out to be as rugged as the shunts. They won't be getting real hot, that's for sure.

04xl1200c
21st June 2013, 18:24
I ran a series reg on my cb750... It made a big difference seemed to last good as well! Much better than the "shunt points" that came factory!!!


Sent from my iPhone on the flip side.

Reaction Racing
21st June 2013, 18:56
I just found and bought one for $60 brand new! It was the only one he had otherwise I would have bought more and helped others out.

Bob s hog
21st June 2013, 19:00
I think it is going to be a great investment for all xl owners I just ordered one for they 06 sporty to day.

LuxBlue
21st June 2013, 19:09
I think it is going to be a great investment for all xl owners I just ordered one for they 06 sporty to day.

So Bob, you have yours installed on your other bike and it's working good? My shunt regulator's output is just a little low for my taste. I hope the new regulator I put in puts out closer to 14 volts.

LuxBlue
22nd June 2013, 02:54
Thanks Scott.

Rico,

I got the regulator today. The actual Cycle Electric part # is CE-210 but I ordered it with the other # I posted. The instructions say it will fit all 2004 - 2006 Sportsters. They make these regulators for all Harleys that don't have them though. Very nicely made and looks good. Instructions also say it will regulate between 14.2 and 14.6 volts at battery. I will install tomorrow and post findings.

Fresh outta the box. Here's what you get.....

1. The regulator, with the correct input and output plugs, for your application.
2. A push mount zip tie to attach the wiring to the frame.
3. Two star washers for the mounting bolts. You reuse the old bolts.

http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii267/F86sabre_bucket/100_1025_zpsca2c1a1e.jpg

Rico 05R
22nd June 2013, 03:00
I guess I'm just going to have to get one. :frownthre

Screw Loose Dan
22nd June 2013, 05:33
Love the testing and fact finding you are doing!

When I ran the RPMs up to over 2000, the stator was at full output, about 26 amps.

Just curious, did it stabilize, or plateau, at 2000 RPM/26 amps? Did you rev it much higher to see if it went any higher?

For some reason I thought the pre-EFI rubber mounts had 22 amp stators and 30 amp regulators. Or something like that.

LuxBlue
22nd June 2013, 14:29
Dan, the stator amps stabilized right at about 26 AC amps above 2k rpm, no higher, no lower. I believe you're right though, the stator is rated at 22 amps so mine is an over acheiver! I'll be installing my new regulator late this morning or early afternoon after I get some other things done. Will post more then. I'll try to get all the DC data too.

milmat1
22nd June 2013, 14:41
I think the numbers will show that the total losses will get clise to 1 hp.

Btw.
The ac from the stator is Rectified then the dc is Regulated..

Sent from my Sportster while passing a B.T. using Tapatalk..

Helibee
22nd June 2013, 15:45
For those looking for a Cycle Electric stator for '07-12 (CE-0732), www.bikertrends.com can order direct and ship for $96.90. Got mine last month but have yet to install...

LuxBlue
22nd June 2013, 19:17
OK gang, I installed the new Cycle Electric regulator and have this to report:

Installation was straight forward as expected. It is literally unplug / plug and play. How easy are these instructions?

http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii267/F86sabre_bucket/100_1033_zps6509c089.jpg

OEM regulator still installed. I have a chrome cover for it. Since the Cycle Electric has the same dimensions, the cover will fit it too! Man is my bike dirty! I got caught in the rain the other day:

http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii267/F86sabre_bucket/100_1026_zps4994a10e.jpg

After unbolting, the OEM regulator is shown with stator AC plug removed:

http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii267/F86sabre_bucket/100_1027_zps710050fc.jpg

Unplugged completely and removed. AC connection from stator on left, DC plug on right:

http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii267/F86sabre_bucket/100_1029_zpse60a1c1d.jpg

Tale of the tape. Physical dimensions are exactly the same as the OEM shunt regulator:

http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii267/F86sabre_bucket/100_1030_zpsdc8e2dae.jpg

The only difference is the OEM regulator has the DC common tied to it by a torx screw and the Cycle Electric has it wired internally:

http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii267/F86sabre_bucket/100_1031_zps761de744.jpg

I used dialectric grease on the plug connections to keep the electrical plugs corrosion free and keep Mother Nature at bay:

http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii267/F86sabre_bucket/100_1032_zpsf788b0ad.jpg

One thing I did do....when I plugged in the AC plug to the stator, I used small zip ties run through the split between the wires on each side to keep the plug from coming loose. The plug fits tightly but there is no locking mechanism. The DC connection has an "O" ring and locking tabs, so no worries there. I still had enough slack to get the ammeter jaws over the AC wiring to test:

http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii267/F86sabre_bucket/100_1035_zps29fa259b.jpg

New regulator installed. I used the supplied zip tie to tie the AC side wires to the OEM hole in the frame. I used another zip tie to hold the DC connector in place:

http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii267/F86sabre_bucket/100_1036_zps6ed49ce8.jpg

I was able to route the DC wires on the left side like this for easy access for the clamp on ammeter:

http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii267/F86sabre_bucket/100_1037_zpsb15ad58b.jpg

Battery voltage measured at the battery before start:

http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii267/F86sabre_bucket/100_1038_zpsa86d5ebe.jpg

Ammeter jaws clamped to DC wiring for test:

http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii267/F86sabre_bucket/100_1039_zps3a4c840e.jpg

Right at start....ammeter DC amps supplid by regulator on left, battery DC volts on right. Regulator is supplying ~ 20 DC amps to charge battery which has fallen off from starting:

http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii267/F86sabre_bucket/100_1040_zps95c955ea.jpg

After warmup and idling at 950 rpm, battery is regulated at 14.28 VDC and DC amps from regulator have fallen off to 12.3:

http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii267/F86sabre_bucket/100_1041_zps5220a9fb.jpg

Ammeter jaws clamped to AC stator wiring, right side for testing:

http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii267/F86sabre_bucket/100_1042_zpsfb95543f.jpg

AC stator amps at idle with battery at proper charge voltage for idle speed:

http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii267/F86sabre_bucket/100_1043_zps9e283cc5.jpg

Bike running at 2100 rpm. Regulator has battery @ 14.45 VDC:

http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii267/F86sabre_bucket/100_1044_zps4706d3f7.jpg

AC stator amps at the same 2100 rpm only putting out 14.9 amps...NOT 26!

http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii267/F86sabre_bucket/100_1045_zps9e993150.jpg

As battery charged more, stator amps dropped to 12.2, just enough to run the DC system's lights and ignition, a savings of 13.8 AC amps going to ground in wasted heat and HP!

http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii267/F86sabre_bucket/100_1046_zpsbf73e4c7.jpg

DC amps from regulator with battery at full charge....this is what my bike draws after the battery is full:

http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii267/F86sabre_bucket/100_1047_zps13931da1.jpg

Summary:

The new Cycle Electric regulator works as advertised.

It allows the stator to kick out up to 26 amps when needed to recharge the battery after starting.

After the battery is recharged, it throttles back the stator amps to only draw what is needed to run the bike's DC system.

I saw an average savings of 10 to 15 wasted stator AC amps and a savings of .2 to .3 HP.

The stator does not have to work "balls to the wall" all the time and should be less prone to failure.

I say it's a win, win situation.

Reaction Racing
22nd June 2013, 19:31
Wow! Great write up. Thanks for all the info.

04xl1200c
22nd June 2013, 19:36
Also remember that stator is "heating" up the primary oil :( if u keep that stator at a lower output it will not cause as much heat build up in the primary!


Sent from my iPhone on the flip side.

Bob s hog
22nd June 2013, 20:30
I got the same readings and when you say heat there less of it and believe it or not my engine oil heat is less I youse to run 180 oil temp and its running 170 know may be the less heat in the tranny not heat sinking into the engine is a win win great right up luxsblue and great pics to.

LuxBlue
22nd June 2013, 21:49
Wow! Great write up. Thanks for all the info.

I got the same readings and when you say heat there less of it and believe it or not my engine oil heat is less I youse to run 180 oil temp and its running 170 know may be the less heat in the tranny not heat sinking into the engine is a win win great right up luxsblue and great pics to.

Also remember that stator is "heating" up the primary oil :( if u keep that stator at a lower output it will not cause as much heat build up in the primary!

Thanks guys, just reportin' da news! I didn't even think about the stator heating up the oil. Wasted heat is everywhere when you're dumping excess current to ground.

One thing I didn't add. The Cycle Electric regulator charges my battery to 14.4 VDC. The OEM regulator only charged to 13.9 VDC which I always thought was a little low.
My Shorai lithium ion battery reccomends charging to at least 14.34 VDC for 100% charge.

rocketmangb
22nd June 2013, 22:07
HP wise
When all the low hanging fruit has been picked it's time to look at everything !
I think I'm the poster boy for "looking at everyhing" !

Thanks Lux.

LuxBlue
22nd June 2013, 22:12
HP wise
When all the low hanging fruit has been picked it's time to look at everything !
I think I'm the poster boy for "looking at everyhing" !

Thanks Lux.

Yup....that's why I am running the 3" K&N filter you pioneered for the Hammer and NRHS air cleaners!

Screw Loose Dan
22nd June 2013, 23:49
Thanks for all the empirical research. And I'm super excited about the possibility of an extra horsepower or so. :rolleyes:

BUT!!! What I really care about, what does Legs think??? :geek We are 40 posts deep of all this really important data and nothing from Legs on the topic?? How is this possible? I think it invalidates all this research...how can it all be true if she hasn't chimed in on it?? :rolleyes: :geek :frownthre ;)

(Seriously, thanks for putting the effort and time into all this!) :clap

XLXR
23rd June 2013, 00:13
Can you feel any difference in engine power when riding, maybe even just running a bit smoother?

Crosshairs
23rd June 2013, 00:21
Ive been following this thread and I just ordered one......seems like it will be worth it for just keeping the stator happy....

$129.16 with free shipping.....Ive taken worse gamble's..:)

LuxBlue
23rd June 2013, 01:16
Thanks for all the empirical research. And I'm super excited about the possibility of an extra horsepower or so. :rolleyes:

BUT!!! What I really care about, what does Legs think??? :geek We are 40 posts deep of all this really important data and nothing from Legs on the topic?? How is this possible? I think it invalidates all this research...how can it all be true if she hasn't chimed in on it?? :rolleyes: :geek :frownthre ;)

(Seriously, thanks for putting the effort and time into all this!) :clap

Legs did quiz me on the box that arrived and I told her it was another goody for my bike. I tried to explain why I was replacing a good regulator with another one that worked more efficiently and she just said, "OK, I guess you know what you're doing." :D

Tom Beckner
23rd June 2013, 01:34
Quote:

Summary:

The new Cycle Electric regulator works as advertised.
(snip)

End quote.

That's a great job on this review. Thank you.

One question that's not really a big deal, but do you think this regulator has
any draw on the battery when the key is in the <Off> position?

According to the wiring diagram on my 2002 XL, the easiest place to check
would be with the voltmeter in series with one of the terminals on the 30 amp
circuit breaker.

Tom Beckner

rocketmangb
23rd June 2013, 01:42
ordered 1 from Dennis Kirk 136.99

LuxBlue
23rd June 2013, 02:47
Can you feel any difference in engine power when riding, maybe even just running a bit smoother?

Nah, I won't make that claim. After all we're talking about the charging system here.

I just got back from a ride. I know I picked up about 1/3 HP but I can't say I felt it. Although knowing my stator was breathing easy gave me a feeling of acomplishment.

The only noticeable thing is my Dakota Digital's battery indicator is showing that I'm running between 14.2 and 14.4 VDC while riding, about .5 to .7 VDC higher than the OEM shunt regualtor provided.

LuxBlue
23rd June 2013, 02:50
Quote:

Summary:

The new Cycle Electric regulator works as advertised.
(snip)

End quote.

That's a great job on this review. Thank you.

One question that's not really a big deal, but do you think this regulator has
any draw on the battery when the key is in the <Off> position?

According to the wiring diagram on my 2002 XL, the easiest place to check
would be with the voltmeter in series with one of the terminals on the 30 amp
circuit breaker.

Tom Beckner

There's no draw from the regulator on the battery in the off position.

Bob s hog
23rd June 2013, 03:01
I can say my bike is better less shake but my bike mine is a rigged mount.

rocketmangb
23rd June 2013, 03:25
I really just want the charging system to work good and I get some power all the better

LuxBlue
23rd June 2013, 04:12
I really just want the charging system to work good and I get some power all the better

You hit it on the head there George! No outlandish claims to be made, just a correctly working, more efficient, less prone to failure charging system is what you get. Plus a 1/3 HP increase, a cooler running stator and cooler primary oil!

Reaction Racing
23rd June 2013, 05:23
Lux, thanks for all your testing and info on this. I am looking to get everything I can out of this engine, hp and reliability and this aids me in that pursuit.
Thanks again for all your work. Rep to you!

LuxBlue
23rd June 2013, 17:37
Lux, thanks for all your testing and info on this. I am looking to get everything I can out of this engine, hp and reliability and this aids me in that pursuit.
Thanks again for all your work. Rep to you!

Thanks! Aaron from Hammer Performance showed me the way.

I was happy to test the new regulator. Curiosity may have killed the cat but it makes for better running Sportys!

DUALLS
23rd June 2013, 23:59
Well I guess it looks like Aaron will be stocking up on Regulators!!

LuxBlue
24th June 2013, 00:54
Well I guess it looks like Aaron will be stocking up on Regulators!!

Yep, it's gonna be like a run on the bank during a stock market crash!

rejeanprimeau
24th June 2013, 02:37
I stand corrected, now where is that stupid credit card before they start selling those regulator 300$. Have to remember the price of the 2004-2006 1200 heads how they skyrocket after someone said on the XLF how good they are. Buy the stock when the price is still good.

LuxBlue
24th June 2013, 03:26
I stand corrected, now where is that stupid credit card before they start selling those regulator 300$. Have to remember the price of the 2004-2006 1200 heads how they skyrocket after someone said on the XLF how good they are. Buy the stock when the price is still good.

I wasn't sure we could convince you!

toe
24th June 2013, 10:02
Now we need a regulator that also is a DC-DC buck regulator so we can get more amps out of the alternator..................

Should be simple add on to the series regulator......

LuxBlue
24th June 2013, 14:32
Guys, on a side note........ I have a Shorai Lithium Iron Phosphate (LiFePO4) battery on my bike.

The new regulator puts out almost 14.6 VDC @ 2000 rpms and above which is 3.65 volts per cell on the battery. That's at least .7 to .8 VDC more system voltage than the OEM shunt regulator put out.

Everything I'm reading on line says 3.6 VDC per cell is the recommended max charge for a lithium iron battery but I've also read that 4.1 VDC per cell is maximum before any damage occurs. That would be a system voltage of 16.4 VDC which is way above where I am now.

I'm not real concerned about 5/100th of a volt per cell and also because the battery isn't held at 14.6 VDC all the time and actually discharges down to around 14.0 VDC around idle.

I put a question about the battery max voltage into Shorai and will post when I hear from them.

Screw Loose Dan
24th June 2013, 14:47
It'll be interesting what Shorai has to say.

Do you have one of there chargers? I keep thinking I should get one, but I'm not sure why.

LuxBlue
24th June 2013, 15:01
It'll be interesting what Shorai has to say.

Do you have one of there chargers? I keep thinking I should get one, but I'm not sure why.

No, I don't have one of Shorai's chargers. They say right on their web site that any tender that doesn't have a desulfation mode can be used which fortunately includes my Battery Tender Jr.

However, since these batteries have very little internal resistance and will minimally discharge unloaded, they can sit for a long, long time without needing a charge. But, if your bike has a security system or clock or something else that draws down the battery while sitting, you may need to top it off occassionally if you're going to let it sit for awhile.

From Shorai's FAQ website:

Q. Can I use Lead-Acid battery chargers or charger/tenders?

A.Yes. HOWEVER, you may NOT use a charger/tender if it has an automatic "desulfation mode", which cannot be turned off. We have confirmed with Deltran, makers of the "Battery Tender" brand, that their products do NOT have a desulfation mode, and are therefore OK for use with Shorai LFX, for example. But the best possible charger/tender for Shorai LFX is the SHO-BMS01. It uses the 5-pin BMS port in the LFX batteries, in order to monitor, diagnose, and balance the individual cells during charge. And it also has an optimized storage mode that will give the longest possible service life to your LFX.

If you are storing your vehicle and want to check the remaining capacity, or you're a racer with a constant-loss system, you'll want to know how resting voltage (i.e. with no load or load under 200mA) maps to remaining capacity. LFX batteries should be maintained such that 20% capacity remains at minimum, as best practice. Use a good-quality voltmeter to check remaining capacity, and consider recharge whenever the battery capacity falls to about 50% remaining. Of course, if you get the Shorai dedicated BMS01 charger, you can just hit the "Store Mode" button and leave it to do the work for you.


Q. Should I use a battery tender?

A.The short answer is "only if you really need to". Most powersports enthusiasts have gotten used to hooking up a tender to their lead-acid batteries, all the time. Shorai LFX have much slower self-discharge than the best lead acid do (1/6 to 1/7, on average), they do not sulfate as capacity drops, and they are the ultimate "deep cycle" battery, which means that they can still crank your vehicle even if the remaining capacity is quite low. Therefore most riders will not need to use a tender at all. Even a charger or tender uses energy you have to pay for, and there is always the possibility that a charger or tender can fail in some way, so if not really needed the best practice is to not use one.
A fully charged LFX can sit for a year or more and still retain adequate starting capacity, without damaging the battery. As such, any vehicle which has no current flowing when the key is OFF should never need a tender. At most it should be charged every 6 to 12 months, depending on the average storage temperature (cool storage is much better for any battery). Many older vehicles and most dirtbike/atv fall into this category.
Newer vehicles may have a significant draw even when the key is OFF, to maintain clocks and computers, etc. In this case we expect that a few hours of riding per month will be all that is needed to avoid tending. If you know that you will go a number of weeks or months without riding, you can either attach a tender, or disconnect the negative cable from the battery. In any case, during storage you may use the voltage chart above and an accurate voltmeter, and consider recharging when the battery is around the 50% capacity remaining mark, or above.

rocketmangb
24th June 2013, 15:12
Off topic But !
I am trying to charge a dead AGM MoCo battery
It wont even turn the charger on !
I read this in Hot Rod magazine a while back
Hook up a good battery to the charger and then piggy back the dead battery
They say this works very well on the AGM types
Not so well for me however
My weak battery is up to 13.7 volts but the dead one is 10.6 so I'm guessing it has a bad cell.

Screw Loose Dan
24th June 2013, 15:20
Yeah, I've tried my battery tenders and chargers. It was a year or so ago, so I don't remember exactly, but the voltage seemed to go well over what I felt comfortable with. Lithium and over-voltage makes me nervous.

I'm sure I don't *need* one, just noticed it only charges to 13.9 with the bike running. Sometimes after she's set for a couple weeks takes a few tries to get her started. But, she does always start. And, it takes some getting used to the subsequent cranks being stronger, not weaker like normal batteries.

LuxBlue
24th June 2013, 17:50
Yeah, I've tried my battery tenders and chargers. It was a year or so ago, so I don't remember exactly, but the voltage seemed to go well over what I felt comfortable with. Lithium and over-voltage makes me nervous.

I'm sure I don't *need* one, just noticed it only charges to 13.9 with the bike running. Sometimes after she's set for a couple weeks takes a few tries to get her started. But, she does always start. And, it takes some getting used to the subsequent cranks being stronger, not weaker like normal batteries.

Yeah, that thinking does seems counter intuitive but it does work, especially in colder weather. I haven't heard from Shorai yet.

LuxBlue
24th June 2013, 17:50
Off topic But !
I am trying to charge a dead AGM MoCo battery
It wont even turn the charger on !
I read this in Hot Rod magazine a while back
Hook up a good battery to the charger and then piggy back the dead battery
They say this works very well on the AGM types
Not so well for me however
My weak battery is up to 13.7 volts but the dead one is 10.6 so I'm guessing it has a bad cell.

Yeah, sounds like it....sorry!

rocketmangb
24th June 2013, 18:13
Had to give it a shot before I replace it !

Cosmo Kramer
25th June 2013, 01:51
Phenomenal stuff in this thread! I'm sold!....order has been placed. Thanks Scott for providing this info! I'd give you some rep but it won't let me right now.

Rico 05R
25th June 2013, 01:55
Phenomenal stuff in this thread! I'm sold!....order has been placed. Thanks Scott for providing this info! I'd give you some rep but it won't let me right now.

I got him for you Cosmo.

LuxBlue
25th June 2013, 02:45
Phenomenal stuff in this thread! I'm sold!....order has been placed. Thanks Scott for providing this info! I'd give you some rep but it won't let me right now.

I got him for you Cosmo.

That's high praise, coming from a resident electrical Guru and a Map Master extraordinaire, and I thank you! :banana

Thanks to all who offered rep but I think we owe Aaron a piece of the pie for reminding us about our OEM shunt regulators.

rocketmangb
25th June 2013, 03:00
Frankly I had no idea this was an issue !
Thanks Aaron !
Mine should be here Friday !

LuxBlue
25th June 2013, 03:22
I just checked my email and I got a response from Shorai.

Kind of a disappointing response from their customer service rep and she didn't answer my second question about the absolute max voltage but she assures me all is well with my regulator running at 14.6 VDC. I guess I can call and get more details from a technical person if I want to. I'm more curious than anything.

Here's my post and the reply below:

I recently replaced my voltage regulator on my HD Sportster.

The new regulator has a slightly higher output than the one I replaced.

The new regulator is putting out 14.6 VDC (3.65 volts per cell) at maximum output to charge the battery.

Is this in the acceptable high range for my Shorai LFX21L6-BS12 battery?

If so, what is the recommended maximum total or per cell charge my battery can take before being damaged?

Thanks,

Scott


Hi Scott,

"The new regulator is putting out 14.6 VDC (3.65 volts per cell) at maximum output to charge the battery." This is OK

Screw Loose Dan
25th June 2013, 05:31
LOL! Gotta love direct and to the point customer service folks. At least you got an answer, I guess. If you do call, keep us posted.

LuxBlue
25th June 2013, 11:48
LOL! Gotta love direct and to the point customer service folks. At least you got an answer, I guess. If you do call, keep us posted.

My guess is she asked someone who knew and they told her it was OK and didn't elaborate. I'll try to call today if I have time.

LuxBlue
25th June 2013, 18:33
I called Shorai and got the same woman that sent the email to me. She couldn't or wouldn't forward me on to someone technical but she said she'd get the answer for me and email back, which she did.

According to her new email, 14.4 VDC is the recommended max voltage for my Shorai battery with 15.2 VDC the point where damage occurs.

I can live with what my regulator is putting out since it doesn't go much higher than 14.55 VDC and doesn't stay there all the time.

Screw Loose Dan
25th June 2013, 21:55
That's reasonable, I suppose. Is the 14.55 measured with the Fluke or is that the Dakota Digital's display? Or, are they the same now (I think I remember at one time they weren't but I can't remember the outcome :o).

LuxBlue
26th June 2013, 00:18
That's reasonable, I suppose. Is the 14.55 measured with the Fluke or is that the Dakota Digital's display? Or, are they the same now (I think I remember at one time they weren't but I can't remember the outcome :o).

The 14.55 VDC was measured at the battery with my Fluke MM and I have yet to see it any higher. The Dakota Digital reads very close, within .25 VDC.....I got a 14.3 VDC reading on it when the battery was at 14.55.

Since the battery is constantly charging and discharging through the range of RPMs, I'm sure it's never at the highest charge for very long. Looks like if I never go above 15 VDC I'll be OK.

Screw Loose Dan
26th June 2013, 00:42
That's cool. You should be able to see that well enough with your Dakota Digital. Only time I'd have any concern is sustained highway riding.

Thanks again for all the time and effort you put into this. And, thanks of course to Aaron at Hammer Performance for putting you on this track. When I get around to ordering one, it will be from Hammer since they were the ones that got us going in this direction.

LuxBlue
26th June 2013, 03:43
That's cool. You should be able to see that well enough with your Dakota Digital. Only time I'd have any concern is sustained highway riding.

Good point, but even then I'm only at 14.6 VDC system volts at most. I think Shorai is being a little conservative on their limit also (15.2 VDC which is 3.8 VDC per cell) as any product manufacturer should be to insure their products don't get destroyed! I've seen other info online that states that LiFePO4 cells can go as high as 4.1 VDC per cell (16.4 VDC system volts) which would never happen unless the regulator got f@&ked. In that case you'd probably fry more than just the battery.

Thanks again for all the time and effort you put into this. And, thanks of course to Aaron at Hammer Performance for putting you on this track. When I get around to ordering one, it will be from Hammer since they were the ones that got us going in this direction.

Yeah, it's only fitting to show homage to Hammer Performance....they offer great service, products and know how.

LuxBlue
30th June 2013, 22:36
More info to think about...while trying to help rocketmangb with his stator problem....... :frownthre

I read in the manual that the stator produces between 19 and 26 VAC per 1000 rpm. If it can kick out 19 - 26 volts per 1000 rpm without plateauing, that means at 3000 rpm the stator would produce between 57 and 78 AC volts.

With the OEM shunt regulator in the circuit and the stator supplying 26 amps above 2000 rpm, (15 of which is wasted to ground!).....the watt heat loss would be more like 855 to 1170 watts.

That's a 1.15 to 1.57 HP loss!:doh

Milmat may have been right about a more significant HP loss!!!

This all depends whether the stated voltage output of the stator is specified as unloaded or loaded and connected to the regulator. The voltage may be limited to a a lesser value if the stator has the regulator load attached.

Gcram399
30th June 2013, 23:34
Good stuff here. Just the reduction in heat and making the charging system components last longer would be the big selling point for me.
Thanks to Lux and Aaron.

Rico 05R
30th June 2013, 23:49
Good stuff here. Just the reduction in heat and making the charging system components last longer would be the big selling point for me.
Thanks to Lux and Aaron.

:iagree

Gcram399
1st July 2013, 01:53
Does this regulator problem exist on all Sportsters or is this just a Rubbermount issue?

LuxBlue
1st July 2013, 03:14
I think all Sportys that have a stator rather than a DC generator probably have a shunt type regulator.

Gcram399
2nd July 2013, 02:59
Thanks Lux. Yea, mine has a rotor stator setup. Guess I'll make the investment too.

rocketmangb
2nd July 2013, 03:03
Im sure my stator is croaked !
I bought the Cycle lectric reg from Dennis Kirk for 136.99
The Stator is an EBAY item from Fay Meyers HD in Fla for 102.22
Hope it gets here by Friday dammit !

rocketmangb
2nd July 2013, 03:03
FWIW
Both are Cycle Electric

Crosshairs
2nd July 2013, 03:10
Got my Cycle Electric regulator today...but wont be able to install if for 2 weeks

Gcram399
2nd July 2013, 03:10
Rocket, Just to be clear, the stator you cooked was an OEM one, correct?
Do you have it apart yet to see if the fragmented clutch debris is what caused it to fry?

rocketmangb
2nd July 2013, 03:18
Gman
Was OEM
And Im only guessing the clutch spit some shit over that way
Wedge will assist in surgery when the parts show and pix will follow

Gcram399
2nd July 2013, 03:23
Wedge will assist in surgery when the parts show and pix will follow

We do love surgery pics too!!

leo
2nd July 2013, 03:48
I just installed a cycle electric regulator this weekend too.
the bike seemed smoother on the ride to work... could just be in my head

LuxBlue
2nd July 2013, 11:54
Gman
Was OEM
And Im only guessing the clutch spit some shit over that way
Wedge will assist in surgery when the parts show and pix will follow

I'll be following this!

Matty
30th July 2013, 17:42
I just ordered my regulator, finally! Thanks Hammer Dan!

90sportster
30th July 2013, 17:48
I'm upgrading my electrical system as well due to this thread.
Cycle Electric voltage reg and stator.
All Balls starter and battery cables.
just need to figure out what to do with the notorious 4 speed clutch basket....

cHarley04
30th July 2013, 18:00
I'm upgrading my electrical system as well due to this thread.
Cycle Electric voltage reg and stator.
All Balls starter and battery cables.
just need to figure out what to do with the notorious 4 speed clutch basket....

After several years of multiple failing starter clutches and stators I replaced mine with an All Balls starter and Cycle Electric stator and regulator. Haven't had a starter problem or stator problem since. (50,000+ miles) ;)

90sportster
30th July 2013, 18:33
That's good to hear.
Worth the investment then.

Sent from my DROID X2 using Tapatalk 2

LuxBlue
31st July 2013, 14:25
After several years of multiple failing starter clutches and stators I replaced mine with an All Balls starter and Cycle Electric stator and regulator. Haven't had a starter problem or stator problem since. (50,000+ miles) ;)

Yep...I put an All Balls starter on mine and the Cycle Electric Regulator is doing great...just got back from a 4022 mile, nine day ride!

http://xlforum.net/vbportal/forums/showthread.php?p=4511729#post4511729

splineman
31st July 2013, 17:15
Very cool thread... Thanks luxblue.
Rep to you for sure.
I have a hard time justifying new parts when the old ones are working, but you are convincing....

Sent from my ST25i using Tapatalk 2

Matty
1st August 2013, 01:05
Well I ordered my regulator from Hammer yesterday and I could barely get it cranking enough to start when I left work this afternoon. I got home and measured the voltage @11.9V max. When I shut the bike off it read 12V. I've got it on the charger now. I sure hope its the regulator and not the stator...

And I thought I was being proactive.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

rocketmangb
1st August 2013, 01:39
check the stator output voltage
26V AC per 1000 RPM

LuxBlue
1st August 2013, 01:56
Well I ordered my regulator from Hammer yesterday and I could barely get it cranking enough to start when I left work this afternoon. I got home and measured the voltage @11.9V max. When I shut the bike off it read 12V. I've got it on the charger now. I sure hope its the regulator and not the stator...

And I thought I was being proactive.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Read you battery while your bike's running and rev it to over 2k and see if the DC voltage creeps up or like rocketman says, unplug the regulator from the stator and check the stator output. That should narrow it down in a hurry.

LuxBlue
1st August 2013, 01:57
Very cool thread... Thanks luxblue.
Rep to you for sure.
I have a hard time justifying new parts when the old ones are working, but you are convincing....

Sent from my ST25i using Tapatalk 2

The regulator sells itself!

splineman
1st August 2013, 02:28
Yeah seems that way! I have added it to my wishlist lol

Matty
1st August 2013, 03:10
check the stator output voltage
26V AC per 1000 RPM

Well at least I've got the right part ordered. The AC revs right up like a tach. DC is a static 11.9V. Thanks for the tip rocketman! I'll call Hammer tomorrow and see if I can expedite this order. I just told Dan yesterday there is no hurry, I'm just trying to beat the clock. lol


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

leo
1st August 2013, 04:06
I have a cycle electric regulator on mine, installed last month...
I had to jump start my bike to get home today.
got home checked voltage and had 11.8
installed new battery started and stayed around 12.5 at idle and 12.6 at 3300 rpm.
reinstalled stock regulator and same results.

I tried to be proactive about too, but I think my stator went bad.
I get continuity to ground with the stator leads.

rocketmangb
1st August 2013, 04:11
Does sound like the stator is shorted
How many ohms to ground ?
Course mine passed that test

leo
1st August 2013, 04:19
0 to ground. but still got .2 from the two wires.

wedge
1st August 2013, 04:58
The regulator sells itself!
I just read this entire thread and either I missed something or you never did report back about doing that same testing procedure to the new regulator. Do you see the output of the stator changing as advertised, and how much? Sorry if I missed your report.

Matty
1st August 2013, 05:00
0 to ground. but still got .2 from the two wires.

The .2 ohms is just the resistance in the winding. The zero to ground is the problem.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Matty
1st August 2013, 05:03
I just read this entire thread and either I missed something or you never did report back about doing that same testing procedure to the new regulator. Do you see the output of the stator changing as advertised, and how much? Sorry if I missed your report.

I just checked that on mine tonight Wedge and the AC voltage just keeps going up. At least I don't need a Stator. Yet...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

LuxBlue
1st August 2013, 12:20
I just read this entire thread and either I missed something or you never did report back about doing that same testing procedure to the new regulator. Do you see the output of the stator changing as advertised, and how much? Sorry if I missed your report.

I don't know how you missed it....post #33 tells all about the new regulator.

I didn't measure stator volts but I did measure stator amps.

It's all right here:

http://xlforum.net/vbportal/forums/showpost.php?p=4474642&postcount=33

wedge
1st August 2013, 16:33
I don't know how you missed it....post #33 tells all about the new regulator.

I didn't measure stator volts but I did measure stator amps.

It's all right here:

http://xlforum.net/vbportal/forums/showpost.php?p=4474642&postcount=33
Damn, how the heck did I miss that? I must have missed an entire page of posts because there is no way I could have missed it. You didn't post a pic of Legs there and delete it later did you? I can't see any other way I could have missed it. Anyway, great write-up. I'm sold.

leo
2nd August 2013, 02:31
I replaced my stator this morning, and it's good. 14.3v at idle...
took me 2.5hrs to do this swap before I rode to work.

Gcram399
2nd August 2013, 03:07
I wouldn't know an amp from volt if it bit me on the a$$.
But.:...... I do know my charging stuff is all stock and 16 years old.
I bit the bullet and ordered the CE Regulator and CE Stator. Figured I may as well take care of it while I'm installing the better clutch, tensioner and encapsulated rotor.

LuxBlue
5th September 2013, 17:11
I just checked my email and I got a response from Shorai.

Kind of a disappointing response from their customer service rep and she didn't answer my second question about the absolute max voltage but she assures me all is well with my regulator running at 14.6 VDC. I guess I can call and get more details from a technical person if I want to. I'm more curious than anything.

Here's my post and the reply below:

I recently replaced my voltage regulator on my HD Sportster.

The new regulator has a slightly higher output than the one I replaced.

The new regulator is putting out 14.6 VDC (3.65 volts per cell) at maximum output to charge the battery.

Is this in the acceptable high range for my Shorai LFX21L6-BS12 battery?

If so, what is the recommended maximum total or per cell charge my battery can take before being damaged?

Thanks,

Scott


Hi Scott,

"The new regulator is putting out 14.6 VDC (3.65 volts per cell) at maximum output to charge the battery." This is OK


I posted this awhile back. Just checked in on the Shorai website. They changed it around a lot and added this in the FAQ section. (Bold is my emphasis.)

A. Starter batteries of any type contain a large amount of energy. During a short circuit, ALL that energy is released in a matter of seconds, creating an extremely hot arc welder, possibly causing fire or explosion. You MUST be very careful at all times to avoid short circuit of the positive and negative terminals. Do NOT wear jewelry on wrist or neck while handling batteries. INSURE that when installed the positive and negative terminals are properly covered and insulated from the vehicle. Do NOT use carbon fiber battery hold down units, as carbon is an electrical conductor. When replacing a battery, its important to verify that your charging system is working properly and the output voltage is within the recommended range of 13.6-14.4v. At no time should the charging system output be above 15.2v or it can damage the battery.


Looks like up to 15.2 VDC on the charging system is OK. The new regulator goes as high as 14.3 VDC which looks to be okie dokey.

Screw Loose Dan
5th September 2013, 17:17
Thanks for the update! Interesting that they changed the acceptable voltage range.

LuxBlue
5th September 2013, 23:20
Thanks for the update! Interesting that they changed the acceptable voltage range.

They must have got some feedback about it!

I saw another LiFePO4 battery site that also says 15.2 VDC is the voltage charge limit. So I know my series regulator is OK @ 14.3-14.5 VDC max.

bustert
9th September 2013, 02:35
that is a total misconception!!!! the regulator does not shunt any unused charge current to ground!!! if that would be so, the regulator would be forcing the alternator or generator at full output and life would be short lived. the term actually refers to how the charge system is measured within the regulator. please do some research as this old wifes tale should have died years ago!!!

bustert
9th September 2013, 03:00
unless you have a direct short with massive current over-flow(in which the regulator will fail) the stator failure would be evident by being burnt readily visible to the eye. most stator failures are less catostropic in nature. the varnish on the wire is an insulator and when this breaks down, the windings will short together effectively cutting turns ratio and output. the coil could also leak to ground via the coil form and would reduce output. an internal winding turn could open and cut current flow. the hd system is series single phase so any failure would cut output. the best system is three phase where a phase failure would only reduce output but not kill the system unless of coarse the three phases failed. a failing three phase system shows up in the headlight before failure totally occurs as a flicker caused by the missing phase unlike a total failure of a series system.

LuxBlue
9th September 2013, 12:36
that is a total misconception!!!! the regulator does not shunt any unused charge current to ground!!! if that would be so, the regulator would be forcing the alternator or generator at full output and life would be short lived. the term actually refers to how the charge system is measured within the regulator. please do some research as this old wifes tale should have died years ago!!!



WTF dude....get your facts straight. Didn't you see the measured results I posted?

A shunt regulator does draw full stator current all the time.

It does shorten the stator life.

That's why replacing the OEM regulator makes sense.

cHarley04
9th September 2013, 13:33
WTF dude....get your facts straight. Didn't you see the measured results I posted?

A shunt regulator does draw full stator current all the time.

It does shorten the stator life.

That's why replacing the OEM regulator makes sense.

+1 - This is correct on all points.

LuxBlue
9th September 2013, 14:20
the best system is three phase where a phase failure would only reduce output but not kill the system unless of coarse the three phases failed. a failing three phase system shows up in the headlight before failure totally occurs as a flicker caused by the missing phase unlike a total failure of a series system.

If you'd lost a phase on a 3 phase system, you would see diminished output current by a factor of a square root of 3 (~1.73). The battery filters out the AC ripple or the single phase system would flicker all the time.

bustert
9th September 2013, 18:59
a normal charge system that uses ac will have ripple and yes the battery acts as a large capacitor that will allow the signal or ripple to ground out as this is one of the basics of a capacitor. however, ripple in a normal circuit will be on the milli side where as a lost phase has a greater potiential. depending upon how the phases are combined, there is a natural cancellation of opposing wave forms and also the switching effects of the controlling device. this is an advantage of a scr over diodes. the lights will usually not be steady state but the flicker will be there no matter how small.

LuxBlue
9th September 2013, 19:20
a normal charge system that uses ac will have ripple and yes the battery acts as a large capacitor that will allow the signal or ripple to ground out as this is one of the basics of a capacitor. however, ripple in a normal circuit will be on the milli side where as a lost phase has a greater potiential. depending upon how the phases are combined, there is a natural cancellation of opposing wave forms and also the switching effects of the controlling device. this is an advantage of a scr over diodes. the lights will usually not be steady state but the flicker will be there no matter how small.

Ripple would be negligible.

Are you still saying the OEM shunt regulators aren't maxing out the stator all the time?

EL in NH
9th September 2013, 21:26
Ripple would be negligible.

Are you still saying the OEM shunt regulators aren't maxing out the stator all the time?

It appears he is saying the HD OEM regulator is a series regulator. At least that's what I gather from his post # 118 "the hd system is series single phase"

bustert
9th September 2013, 22:39
to help out the understanding, i will post two simple pictures. notice that the shunt uses an external referrence source aka the shut which draws so little current, i doubt it would illuminate an led. the series takes the referrence off of the current that the load draws. if it would be true that excess current goes to ground, it would be parasitic and draw quite a bit of heat, the number one killer for a regulator much less the alternator/generator.

http://i906.photobucket.com/albums/ac261/bustert/shuntseries_zpsb1d124de.jpg (http://s906.photobucket.com/user/bustert/media/shuntseries_zpsb1d124de.jpg.html)

http://i906.photobucket.com/albums/ac261/bustert/shunt_zpse222ffa4.jpg (http://s906.photobucket.com/user/bustert/media/shunt_zpse222ffa4.jpg.html)

bustert
9th September 2013, 22:57
ch04
a regulator is basically an on/off switch, does your ceiling light stay on with the switch off??? if so you do not need a power company!!! if there is no load being drawn, the regulator is off and if a load is applied, it will go on/off as necessary to maintain the the set voltage level.

aswracing
9th September 2013, 23:21
The factory regulator is a shunt.

The aftermarket regulator being discussed here is a series.

The shunt keeps the alternator fully loaded. Hence the stator failures.

ColinB
10th September 2013, 09:05
Surely shunts in regulators are zener diodes in parallel with the load which, at a set voltage, start conducting and dissipating power as heat? How this would work in a series application I don't know.

However, a permanent magnet spinning in a fixed coil of wire (the stator) causes an EMF (electro-motive force, the 'voltage' developed at the supply rather than the 'voltage' drop across the load) in proportion to the speed of the spin. (This can't be changed except for having a coil-tap on the stator.)

Faraday's law. (the delta t in the formula is basically 'per second' and all the other values remain constant, so EMF is proportional to speed of rotation)
http://dvapphysics.wikispaces.com/file/view/fday.gif/341981488/fday.gif

I can only think that the series 'shunt' (and a shunt in physics is just a device which allows electric current to pass around another point in the circuit by creating a low resistance path) still uses a zener diode to switch current to ground and dissipate heat, but in a differing point in the circuit so you're not measuring it with your meter. So the alternator is still producing full power.

This is a discussion point - I'm in no way trying to shoot anybody down after all the hard work they've done. I expect, and hope, to be corrected here 'cos I'm always up for being proved wrong and learning something new. If it was as simple as changing a resistor from parallel to series it would've been done decades ago by all the big car and motorcycle manufacturers, so someone (me!) is probably missing something or assuming something.

toe
10th September 2013, 10:01
Ok, here's another question.

Is the shunt before or after the rectification of AC to DC?

Would it matter?


The shunt doesn't need to be a zener diode. You just need to have a voltage sensor that will turn on a transistor, SCR, or MOSFET when a certain voltage level is exceeded at the output of the regulator....

ColinB
10th September 2013, 10:17
The shunt doesn't need to be a zener diode. You just need to have a voltage sensor that will turn on a transistor, SCR, or MOSFET when a certain voltage level is exceeded at the output of the regulator....

Of course. :doh My automotive electrical knowledge is all from the 80s and things have moved on now. Has the MoCo caught up? :)

However; the alternator will still be producing EMF proportional to the speed of magnet rotation, the switching system to 'waste' the excess power won't change that. All I can think of is better control of 'back EMF' to reduce current in the stator windings, but that is determined by the charge in the battery and the voltage across it's terminals. As the alternator charges the battery (in the opposite polarity to the alternator) the difference in the two voltages gets less and the flow of current in the stator drops. If the revs increase to increase the emf of the alternator, then the current will increase and this needs to be shunted to ground - the actual switching system itself (series, parallel, zener diode, MOSFET) doesn't matter in the slightest. Ya canna change the laws o' physics, cap'n. (One can, however, get them wrong.) Excuse the rambling - I'm thinking out loud here!

http://img.pandawhale.com/5458-einstein-simply-ekY1.jpeg

http://trendingsideways.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/einstein-500x312.jpg

LuxBlue
10th September 2013, 12:00
The proof that the OEM regulator draws max stator amps above 2k rpm is pictured in post # 1.

The proof that the Cycle Electric regulator draws only what the DC system needs is pictured in post # 33.

What else can be said?

ColinB
10th September 2013, 12:19
How it works can be discussed, surely?

ColinB
10th September 2013, 13:01
...and found it! In the spirit of Einstein's 'simple' quotes, I cut'n'paste the following:

One caveat: 'Shunt' is always parallel, you simply can't have a shunt resister in series, by definition.

Shunt or series regulators can be composed of many various components. Diodes, Bipolar transistors, SCR’s [silicon-controlled rectifier. The standard 'bridge rectifier'], resistors, capacitors and inductors. There could be a shunt type and a series type that uses the exact same components arranged in different ways. An SCR in the circuit is not necessarily indicative of a shunt regulator.
Shunt regulators were the standard for a very long time because they worked, they were good enough, simpler to build and cheaper I think.

The Shunt type, no matter what the components, will shunt or pass to ground (through a resistance instead of to the load) any current in excess of that needed by the load. By load I mean motorbike systems that use power-battery, lights, ignition etc. These Shunt regulators get a bad rap because they cause the permanent magnet alternator to produce power continuously and therefore generate more heat in the rectifier/regulator and the alternator itself. If well designed, they can work fine and last a long time.

The series rectifier/ regulators can use different schemes to accomplish the regulation, but most I have seen insert a switching component in place of one of the diodes in each conducting path in the bridge rectifier. In this way, when load demand has been met, the control circuit turns off the bridge and no current flows through the stator or the rectifier. This reduces the average current though all the stator and rectifier components and as such reduces the resultant heat. The smarter control circuits will be able turn on the switching component anywhere from zero to the full potential of the stator output and can limit's rectifier output to just what is needed.

So....rep to you LuxBlue, your experiment was correct and the load on the rectifier is reduced for the above reasons.

~Grind~
10th September 2013, 13:50
Thanks for experiment and explanaions! All I really know about electricity is if you don't pay your bill they will turn it off and it can kill you and letting the smoke out of electtrical components will render them inoperable. Thanks again you guys! :)

LuxBlue
10th September 2013, 14:14
How it works can be discussed, surely?

Sure it can be discussed!

LuxBlue
10th September 2013, 14:18
...and found it! In the spirit of Einstein's 'simple' quotes, I cut'n'paste the following:

One caveat: 'Shunt' is always parallel, you simply can't have a shunt resister in series, by definition.

Shunt or series regulators can be composed of many various components. Diodes, Bipolar transistors, SCR’s [silicon-controlled rectifier. The standard 'bridge rectifier'], resistors, capacitors and inductors. There could be a shunt type and a series type that uses the exact same components arranged in different ways. An SCR in the circuit is not necessarily indicative of a shunt regulator.
Shunt regulators were the standard for a very long time because they worked, they were good enough, simpler to build and cheaper I think.

The Shunt type, no matter what the components, will shunt or pass to ground (through a resistance instead of to the load) any current in excess of that needed by the load. By load I mean motorbike systems that use power-battery, lights, ignition etc. These Shunt regulators get a bad rap because they cause the permanent magnet alternator to produce power continuously and therefore generate more heat in the rectifier/regulator and the alternator itself. If well designed, they can work fine and last a long time.

The series rectifier/ regulators can use different schemes to accomplish the regulation, but most I have seen insert a switching component in place of one of the diodes in each conducting path in the bridge rectifier. In this way, when load demand has been met, the control circuit turns off the bridge and no current flows through the stator or the rectifier. This reduces the average current though all the stator and rectifier components and as such reduces the resultant heat. The smarter control circuits will be able turn on the switching component anywhere from zero to the full potential of the stator output and can limit's rectifier output to just what is needed.

So....rep to you LuxBlue, your experiment was correct and the load on the rectifier is reduced for the above reasons.

Thanks! What you posted is a perfect description of what is what in theory.

I only showed by measurement that it is actually so!

LuxBlue
10th September 2013, 15:45
Found this too:

Linear regulators exist in two basic forms: series regulators and shunt regulators.

Series regulators are the more common form. The series regulator works by providing a path from the supply voltage to the load through a variable resistance (the main transistor is in the "top half" of the voltage divider). The power dissipated by the regulating device is equal to the power supply output current times the voltage drop in the regulating device.

The shunt regulator works by providing a path from the supply voltage to ground through a variable resistance (the main transistor is in the "bottom half" of the voltage divider). The current through the shunt regulator is diverted away from the load and flows uselessly to ground, making this form less efficient than the series regulator. It is, however, simpler, sometimes consisting of just a voltage-reference diode, and is used in very low-powered circuits where the wasted current is too small to be of concern.

It looks like shunt type regulators, although simpler than series regulators, should only be used only in low powered circuits where the wasted current is small, not where it can be significant (15-20 amps) like in our OEM charging systems.

bustert
10th September 2013, 23:42
these statements maybe true more or less according to the type/design of the regulator and is not the bible on regulators. a well made shunt electronic regulator only shunts enough in order to measure and control the output. here is a good article.
http://www.ko4bb.com/e102/e102-4.php
to shunt 25+ amps to ground would require sizeable componets and the temps could easily exceed 500+ degrees, look at a soldering iron. place your hand on the regulator and you will see that it does not get that warm.

LuxBlue
11th September 2013, 00:25
these statements maybe true more or less according to the type/design of the regulator and is not the bible on regulators. a well made shunt electronic regulator only shunts enough in order to measure and control the output. here is a good article.
http://www.ko4bb.com/e102/e102-4.php
to shunt 25+ amps to ground would require sizeable componets and the temps could easily exceed 500+ degrees, look at a soldering iron. place your hand on the regulator and you will see that it does not get that warm.

You're really stuck on your beliefs. Read what you just said.

Nobody's saying 25 amps is being shunted to ground. That's the entire output of a Sporty stator.

The OEM shunt regulator does make the stator produce 22-26 amps all the time over about 2000 rpm. But only what is not needed to supply the DC needs of the system is shunted to ground.

After the battery is charged and depending what the load of the running lights, headlights, ignition and other goodies hanging on the system are, it could be shunting anywhere from to 10-17 amps.

Using P=I*E (watts=volts*amps), the regulator would only dissipate the wattage caused by it's own voltage drop, probably only about 15-25 watts.

The regulator does get that warm. That's why it's encased in a finned heat sink and put up front in the air flow.

However, using the OEM regulator, the stator works the same whether the DC system needs 1 amp or all 25 amps.

What we're trying to do here by replacing the OEM shunt regulator with a series (switching) regulator, is to draw from the stator, ONLY what the system needs at the time, not to shunt what's possibly available and not needed to ground. This keeps the stator breathing easier and gives it longevity.

rocketmangb
11th September 2013, 02:55
If I didnt believe ya Lux I wouldnt have dem Cycle Lectric parts !

rejeanprimeau
11th September 2013, 02:55
5$ or 25$ in cost production is the reason why H-D use the shunt type. Simple.

Ireeman
11th September 2013, 03:04
Of course. :doh My automotive electrical knowledge is all from the 80s and things have moved on now. Has the MoCo caught up? :)

However; the alternator will still be producing EMF proportional to the speed of magnet rotation, the switching system to 'waste' the excess power won't change that. All I can think of is better control of 'back EMF' to reduce current in the stator windings, but that is determined by the charge in the battery and the voltage across it's terminals. As the alternator charges the battery (in the opposite polarity to the alternator) the difference in the two voltages gets less and the flow of current in the stator drops. If the revs increase to increase the emf of the alternator, then the current will increase and this needs to be shunted to ground - the actual switching system itself (series, parallel, zener diode, MOSFET) doesn't matter in the slightest. Ya canna change the laws o' physics, cap'n. (One can, however, get them wrong.) Excuse the rambling - I'm thinking out loud here!

http://img.pandawhale.com/5458-einstein-simply-ekY1.jpeg

http://trendingsideways.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/einstein-500x312.jpg
Hey flash.. 3 phases.

LuxBlue
11th September 2013, 11:34
If I didnt believe ya Lux I wouldnt have dem Cycle Lectric parts !

Not trying to convince you George! :wonderlan

bustert
11th September 2013, 11:52
in your last statement, you said all unused current is shunted to ground so what happens when the load is next to zero??? todays regulators shunt a constant current from the source and is measured. ohm's law on current is used so a increase in current to the load causes a drop in the constant current across the shunt and the circuit causes the switching device to stay on longer to bring the system back to set state. you know that at one time the earth was considered flat but i believe you could still find some who still believe it.

LuxBlue
11th September 2013, 12:05
in your last statement, you said all unused current is shunted to ground so what happens when the load is next to zero??? todays regulators shunt a constant current from the source and is measured. ohm's law on current is used so a increase in current to the load causes a drop in the constant current across the shunt and the circuit causes the switching device to stay on longer to bring the system back to set state. you know that at one time the earth was considered flat but i believe you could still find some who still believe it.

OK, I give up.

rejeanprimeau
11th September 2013, 12:50
OK, I give up.

I was about to give you the Einstein view but, I've spoke with an electrician engineer that work for Hydro Quebec; the biggest producer of electricity in the world. He simply told me if no demand on an alternator; switch close in your house, the alternator stay colder, More demand, the alternator come hotter. After the alternator reach full capacity (maximum heat it shut itself).
It's why you have power shortage in a grand demand period. He answer my shunt question by simply telling me if the barrage alternator where to shunt the capable power of itself in the ground, no worm will survive in a 10 mile radius. The Harley shunt is the least costly mean of managing excess current. Simplier than that, someone has to try.

LuxBlue
11th September 2013, 13:57
A shunt regulator is cheaper to produce with the caveat that it's a strain on the alternator. The thing is, Cycle Electric charges about the same price for their series regulator as the MoCo charges for theirs. The Moco's motive is profit only since they can probably get the shunt regulator produced for a very small price. I'd rather use the Cycle Electric regulator to ease the burden on the stator and make it last longer.

aswracing
11th September 2013, 14:17
OK, I give up.

Smart man ;)

EL in NH
11th September 2013, 15:21
http://www.stromtrooper.com/v-strom-modifications-performance/68109-series-type-vs-mosfet-r-r.html

cHarley04
11th September 2013, 15:57
http://www.stromtrooper.com/v-strom-modifications-performance/68109-series-type-vs-mosfet-r-r.html

+1 - the answer is in the first post.
"The Mosfet is still a shunt type... dumping excess load to ground, still causing stress on the Stator... However, the series type (see link above) has the advantage of shutting down the charing system when there is no load on the battery... As I understand it, when there is no demand on the battery, the voltage is shunted directly to the ground on the O.E. or Fet style shunt type R/R. In the Series style, the voltage regulator turns the charging system off. Therefore reducing stator current and thus heat build up..."

I think part of the argument/confusion comes from Cycle Electric simply referring to their regulator as a "series" regulator, when in fact, it's a Switching regulator.

LuxBlue
11th September 2013, 17:03
+1 - the answer is in the first post.
"The Mosfet is still a shunt type... dumping excess load to ground, still causing stress on the Stator... However, the series type (see link above) has the advantage of shutting down the charing system when there is no load on the battery... As I understand it, when there is no demand on the battery, the voltage is shunted directly to the ground on the O.E. or Fet style shunt type R/R. In the Series style, the voltage regulator turns the charging system off. Therefore reducing stator current and thus heat build up..."

I think part of the argument/confusion comes from Cycle Electric simply referring to their regulator as a "series" regulator, when in fact, it's a Switching regulator.

++++1!
Yep......Can you hear us now Bustert? :doh

splineman
11th September 2013, 17:39
I have found this thread fascinating. Thanks to all for the enlightenment.

Sent from my ST25i using Tapatalk 2

Jimg
11th September 2013, 23:01
I have found this thread fascinating. Thanks to all for the enlightenment.

Sent from my ST25i using Tapatalk 2

Me too. My question is, if I bought one of the CE regulators, will it pay for itself? Or will it be un noticable BUT my oil will be in better shape when I change it and will my stator last longer AND will it be like installing a turbo??
Is this worth doing if your bike runs fine?

Crosshairs
11th September 2013, 23:08
Me too. My question is, if I bought one of the CE regulators, will it pay for itself? Or will it be un noticable BUT my oil will be in better shape when I change it and will my stator last longer AND will it be like installing a turbo??
Is this worth doing if your bike runs fine?

I put one on my turbo bike...Its almost like a twin turbo now....:)

rocketmangb
11th September 2013, 23:24
I dont care if it adds any more power
Sure cant hurt to reduce the heat in the primary !
And my battery stays happy !

Matty
11th September 2013, 23:26
I put one on my turbo bike...Its almost like a twin turbo now....:)

Well there ya have it! Lmao

For me it was worth it simply because its not a matter of if, but when the factory regulator is going to cause you problems. The day I ordered my regulator is the day my stator quit.

I think once I get the new ignition system in I'll be in a better position to feel that turbo power. :D


Sent from my iDont using Tapatalk

rocketmangb
11th September 2013, 23:33
Lets see here
I ordered a clutch and the day it came my stocker blew up

I ordered a CE regulator and they day I was gonna install it my battery was dead because the stator shorted !

So two weeks after the clutch exploded we had to go in and do the Stator and regulator ! (special thanks to Wedge and Rhartlin for the help)

At least when we do mt 1250 hop up that side of the motor is done !

Gcram399
12th September 2013, 00:29
My Cycle Electric stator and regulator are still in the boxes along with a pile of other new parts that will get installed when it gets cold and rainy here in SW Pennsylvania.
I don't have clue how the CE products all work but my original stator has been soaking in primary fluid and clutch debris since 1997. Because I was already going to be inside the primary to upgrade my clutch, tensioner and rotor, I may as well do the stator too.
Until someone can prove to me that the Cycle Electric products are not better than the parts that the MOCO had produced by the lowest bidder and installed in 1997, I'll be installing them.

Thanks Lux, for all the time and testing you did. Your tests and Rocketman's prodding helped me to decide to buy the CE stator and regulator.

bustert
12th September 2013, 12:01
i will pray for ya when you get to switched mode power supplies!!!!

one other note: the emf on a pmg is fixed no matter what, parasitic drain and the sporty probably takes aroung 1 hp to move, would have to break out the pencile and calculate the load but anyway, the alternator in a auto and some mc's have a field forced excitation that varies the emf and loads the engine accordingly but chops hp requirements when not needed. the electrical system runs totally off the regulator and the battery only provides the short-fall. so it is possible to see draw. you must understand the circuit in question before absumptions can be made. i say to each his own, believe what you may but do not step off the edge, you might fall off into space. nuff said.

LuxBlue
12th September 2013, 13:40
i will pray for ya when you get to switched mode power supplies!!!!

one other note: the emf on a pmg is fixed no matter what, parasitic drain and the sporty probably takes aroung 1 hp to move, would have to break out the pencile and calculate the load but anyway, the alternator in a auto and some mc's have a field forced excitation that varies the emf and loads the engine accordingly but chops hp requirements when not needed. the electrical system runs totally off the regulator and the battery only provides the short-fall. so it is possible to see draw. you must understand the circuit in question before absumptions can be made. i say to each his own, believe what you may but do not step off the edge, you might fall off into space. nuff said.

And we'll pray for you too. 'Nuff said.

bustert
18th September 2013, 15:47
http://i906.photobucket.com/albums/ac261/bustert/hdregschematiccopy_zpsf217879e.jpg (http://s906.photobucket.com/user/bustert/media/hdregschematiccopy_zpsf217879e.jpg.html)

Here are two typical circuits for the hd regulator. There are variations depending upon which one is used. Hd buys their regulators from over-seas but they work basically the same. There are basically three elements: #1 rectification, #2 regulation and #3 protection.
#1 the ac from the pmg is rectified via a dual diode full wave setup or a bridge setup. Note that the dual diode full wave must have a center tapped coil to work properly unlike the bridge.
#2 the now rectified ac is a pulsed dc wave form and the regulation circuit converts this to a smooth out put and is usually controlled by a zener diode in this case a zdp 13 which has a range of 12.4 to 14.1 volts. The on/off controls the gate to the scr. The out put of the regulator turns on/off the power scr’s in a flip/flop fashion. Interestingly, instead of using a larger single scr, this circuit splits the load and smaller scr’s can be used since the power is in half and on time is reduced which equals less heat. Note that an scr can not conduct unless it has a gate current so without that, no power can flow to the battery/load.
#3 the protection circuit limits the parameters so that the regulator can have a nice long life. This circuit is also controlled by a zener diode usually a zpd 47 with a range of 44 to 50 volts but sometimes you can find different values. When the zener turns on the scr circuit, they direct the over voltage to ground aka shunt.
The hd system is most effective in the 2k to 3k rpm range and as speed increases, less effective. The hd pmg is a 12 pole system and at 1k rpm, the hertz is around 100 hz so at 3k rpm, the hz would be 300 hz. Why the need for a protection circuit??? Well current is can be equated to heat so devices are sized to handle the load but there is more to it! Voltage is critical also as this is a stresser of pn junctions and even the insulating varnish of the pmg winding. Although this is factored in with usually a 400 piv rating on the devices, it still can cause problems long term. This protection circuit limits voltage build up as rpm increases and coil saturation nears. Although it does shunt current to ground to reduce voltage according to ohm’s law, this circuit is not used all the time. When cruising around at normal speeds, the electrical load usually keeps the voltage within check so that the regulator after charging the battery will carry the load with the battery making up the short fall. Remember that checking the pmg ac out put is open ended aka no load. If you add load, the voltage reading will come down.

cHarley04
18th September 2013, 16:25
Here are two typical circuits for the hd regulator. There are variations depending upon which one is used. Hd buys their regulators from over-seas but they work basically the same. There are basically three elements: #1 rectification, #2 regulation and #3 protection.
#1 the ac from the pmg is rectified via a dual diode full wave setup or a bridge setup. Note that the dual diode full wave must have a center tapped coil to work properly unlike the bridge.
#2 the now rectified ac is a pulsed dc wave form and the regulation circuit converts this to a smooth out put and is usually controlled by a zener diode in this case a zdp 13 which has a range of 12.4 to 14.1 volts. The on/off controls the gate to the scr. The out put of the regulator turns on/off the power scr’s in a flip/flop fashion. Interestingly, instead of using a larger single scr, this circuit splits the load and smaller scr’s can be used since the power is in half and on time is reduced which equals less heat. Note that an scr can not conduct unless it has a gate current so without that, no power can flow to the battery/load.
#3 the protection circuit limits the parameters so that the regulator can have a nice long life. This circuit is also controlled by a zener diode usually a zpd 47 with a range of 44 to 50 volts but sometimes you can find different values. When the zener turns on the scr circuit, they direct the over voltage to ground aka shunt.
The hd system is most effective in the 2k to 3k rpm range and as speed increases, less effective. The hd pmg is a 12 pole system and at 1k rpm, the hertz is around 100 hz so at 3k rpm, the hz would be 300 hz. Why the need for a protection circuit??? Well current is can be equated to heat so devices are sized to handle the load but there is more to it! Voltage is critical also as this is a stresser of pn junctions and even the insulating varnish of the pmg winding. Although this is factored in with usually a 400 piv rating on the devices, it still can cause problems long term. This protection circuit limits voltage build up as rpm increases and coil saturation nears. Although it does shunt current to ground to reduce voltage according to ohm’s law, this circuit is not used all the time. When cruising around at normal speeds, the electrical load usually keeps the voltage within check so that the regulator after charging the battery will carry the load with the battery making up the short fall. Remember that checking the pmg ac out put is open ended aka no load. If you add load, the voltage reading will come down.


Thank you for confirming what we've been saying.
If you're not putting around town at 2K-3K RPM, but running all day at 4K RPM down the slab, the regulator is constantly shunting excess current to ground and cooking the stator in the process.

:rolleyes:

LuxBlue
18th September 2013, 19:20
Thank you for confirming what we've been saying.
If you're not putting around town at 2K-3K RPM, but running all day at 4K RPM down the slab, the regulator is constantly shunting excess current to ground and cooking the stator in the process.

:rolleyes:

+1, except I saw full draw at and over 2k rpm.

Here we go again.

This is the exact wording of the description for the Cycle Electric regulator I installed, right from the J&P Cycle catalog:

Cycle Electric Regulator

• Cycle Electric rectifying regulators control voltage on the alternator, unlike others that dump to ground and cause maximum stator current and higher temperatures
• The reduced stator current means lower temperatures and reduced drag on the motor

What more can we say?

MaNickles
5th August 2016, 21:44
I will be on my now 3 regulator my 1st factory died replaced it with some chrome one from a Local parts store about 2000 miles late it has died as well (threw some check engine codes High side battery voltage and high side carb voltage it would happen intermittently 16+volts at times)

i should have my cycle electric in today i will install it and hope it takes care of my voltage issues.

Edster
3rd October 2016, 17:23
Installed the CE-208 on This past Saturday. So far so good. It seems to be more consistent on voltage output according the voltage function my speedo (dakota Digital MCL3200). The stock regulator seemed except when I had a bad battery earlier last week. It didn't seem to go much over 13.2V until it had put a charge on the battery. I'm sure it was okay but I had the money for the cycle electric unit so I figured it would save me stator trouble in the future. Much easier and cheaper to replace the regulator.

bustert
4th October 2016, 14:57
http://i906.photobucket.com/albums/ac261/bustert/hdregschematiccopy_zpsf217879e.jpg (http://s906.photobucket.com/user/bustert/media/hdregschematiccopy_zpsf217879e.jpg.html)

Here are two typical circuits for the hd regulator. There are variations depending upon which one is used. Hd buys their regulators from over-seas but they work basically the same. There are basically three elements: #1 rectification, #2 regulation and #3 protection.
#1 the ac from the pmg is rectified via a dual diode full wave setup or a bridge setup. Note that the dual diode full wave must have a center tapped coil to work properly unlike the bridge.
#2 the now rectified ac is a pulsed dc wave form and the regulation circuit converts this to a smooth out put and is usually controlled by a zener diode in this case a zdp 13 which has a range of 12.4 to 14.1 volts. The on/off controls the gate to the scr. The out put of the regulator turns on/off the power scr’s in a flip/flop fashion. Interestingly, instead of using a larger single scr, this circuit splits the load and smaller scr’s can be used since the power is in half and on time is reduced which equals less heat. Note that an scr can not conduct unless it has a gate current so without that, no power can flow to the battery/load.
#3 the protection circuit limits the parameters so that the regulator can have a nice long life. This circuit is also controlled by a zener diode usually a zpd 47 with a range of 44 to 50 volts but sometimes you can find different values. When the zener turns on the scr circuit, they direct the over voltage to ground aka shunt.
The hd system is most effective in the 2k to 3k rpm range and as speed increases, less effective. The hd pmg is a 12 pole system and at 1k rpm, the hertz is around 100 hz so at 3k rpm, the hz would be 300 hz. Why the need for a protection circuit??? Well current is can be equated to heat so devices are sized to handle the load but there is more to it! Voltage is critical also as this is a stresser of pn junctions and even the insulating varnish of the pmg winding. Although this is factored in with usually a 400 piv rating on the devices, it still can cause problems long term. This protection circuit limits voltage build up as rpm increases and coil saturation nears. Although it does shunt current to ground to reduce voltage according to ohm’s law, this circuit is not used all the time. When cruising around at normal speeds, the electrical load usually keeps the voltage within check so that the regulator after charging the battery will carry the load with the battery making up the short fall. Remember that checking the pmg ac out put is open ended aka no load. If you add load, the voltage reading will come down.

while true that it shunts ac to ground, the protection circuit is not always on. as above, when the battery is charged, the system runs off the regulator, look how hd wires it in. if the battery craps, the machine can still run. the readings you are getting maybe only partly true since the battery is not pulled up to zener cut off and the system load is still being supplied.

yes my stator failure was on the terminations from winding to lead but I believe with was the break down of the adhesive they used to secure it and the ac bled through. the original regulator is still in use(2001).
also of note is that the ac current value is not the same as the dc value.

Edster
4th October 2016, 16:03
http://i906.photobucket.com/albums/ac261/bustert/hdregschematiccopy_zpsf217879e.jpg (http://s906.photobucket.com/user/bustert/media/hdregschematiccopy_zpsf217879e.jpg.html)

Here are two typical circuits for the hd regulator. There are variations depending upon which one is used. Hd buys their regulators from over-seas but they work basically the same. There are basically three elements: #1 rectification, #2 regulation and #3 protection.
#1 the ac from the pmg is rectified via a dual diode full wave setup or a bridge setup. Note that the dual diode full wave must have a center tapped coil to work properly unlike the bridge.
#2 the now rectified ac is a pulsed dc wave form and the regulation circuit converts this to a smooth out put and is usually controlled by a zener diode in this case a zdp 13 which has a range of 12.4 to 14.1 volts. The on/off controls the gate to the scr. The out put of the regulator turns on/off the power scr’s in a flip/flop fashion. Interestingly, instead of using a larger single scr, this circuit splits the load and smaller scr’s can be used since the power is in half and on time is reduced which equals less heat. Note that an scr can not conduct unless it has a gate current so without that, no power can flow to the battery/load.
#3 the protection circuit limits the parameters so that the regulator can have a nice long life. This circuit is also controlled by a zener diode usually a zpd 47 with a range of 44 to 50 volts but sometimes you can find different values. When the zener turns on the scr circuit, they direct the over voltage to ground aka shunt.
The hd system is most effective in the 2k to 3k rpm range and as speed increases, less effective. The hd pmg is a 12 pole system and at 1k rpm, the hertz is around 100 hz so at 3k rpm, the hz would be 300 hz. Why the need for a protection circuit??? Well current is can be equated to heat so devices are sized to handle the load but there is more to it! Voltage is critical also as this is a stresser of pn junctions and even the insulating varnish of the pmg winding. Although this is factored in with usually a 400 piv rating on the devices, it still can cause problems long term. This protection circuit limits voltage build up as rpm increases and coil saturation nears. Although it does shunt current to ground to reduce voltage according to ohm’s law, this circuit is not used all the time. When cruising around at normal speeds, the electrical load usually keeps the voltage within check so that the regulator after charging the battery will carry the load with the battery making up the short fall. Remember that checking the pmg ac out put is open ended aka no load. If you add load, the voltage reading will come down.

while true that it shunts ac to ground, the protection circuit is not always on. as above, when the battery is charged, the system runs off the regulator, look how hd wires it in. if the battery craps, the machine can still run. the readings you are getting maybe only partly true since the battery is not pulled up to zener cut off and the system load is still being supplied.

yes my stator failure was on the terminations from winding to lead but I believe with was the break down of the adhesive they used to secure it and the ac bled through. the original regulator is still in use(2001).
also of note is that the ac current value is not the same as the dc value.
So does this mean if the battery craps out the machine won't run with the Cycle Electric regulator?

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bustert
5th October 2016, 01:37
that I can not answer. if it is tied in to the original wiring, probably so. I say this because one poster referenced all grounds at the battery, he was building a custom with home-made wiring. here, if the battery craps, you lose the circuit. the hd unit is ref to frame and frame to battery. here if the battery craps or you take it out, the regulator is ref to frame ground and the regulator should still function, but the battery can not support electric foot. I used to use a dry cell 12vdc lantern battery to run my machine, just enough power to kick the ignition in, of course, the was no other load and it was manual foot and points. the machine would actually run with out the battery but you had to push start it. a pmg is nice since it outputs power without a whole lot of hoopla, aka, no excitation circuits.

Edster
5th October 2016, 03:45
PMG? All I did was swap out the regulator. I didn't change any wiring. So I reckon if the battery craps out the machine will still run.

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Edster
5th October 2016, 03:50
that I can not answer. if it is tied in to the original wiring, probably so. I say this because one poster referenced all grounds at the battery, he was building a custom with home-made wiring. here, if the battery craps, you lose the circuit. the hd unit is ref to frame and frame to battery. here if the battery craps or you take it out, the regulator is ref to frame ground and the regulator should still function, but the battery can not support electric foot. I used to use a dry cell 12vdc lantern battery to run my machine, just enough power to kick the ignition in, of course, the was no other load and it was manual foot and points. the machine would actually run with out the battery but you had to push start it. a pmg is nice since it outputs power without a whole lot of hoopla, aka, no excitation circuits.
BTW I had an 82 Honda XL250R that would run w/o the battery as it was kick start yet had an alternator (stator). I say this because I had a VW that I had to push start because I had no cash for a new starter and it had a generator.

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bgavin
5th October 2016, 05:08
I found a new CE-211 for my 2008 1200R at $119 shipped from Amazon.
My bike only has 8200 miles, so this might be soon enough to extend the life of my stator.

bustert
5th October 2016, 15:55
well mr. 04 you left out part of the process.
the fact remains that dc currents and ac currents are not the same. convert both to watts and then divide by voltage and you will see the ac currents are less. only way to confirm the ac protection circuit is active is to monitor the wave while going down the road. the load on the machine keeps pretty much things in check.
other than the connection failures which explain themselves, there are other factors to consider.
1. as copper ages, it brinells and this effects current. you can get skin effect where the majority of the current is in the outer edges of the wire and not throughout. in high tension power lines, the electric current actually flows on the surface of the wire.
2. as this happens, the resistance of the wire increased, aka, heat loading
3. eddy currents can develop which is swirling magnet fields circulating in the wire as polarity changes.
4. these eddy currents induce themselves in adjacent wires further from the current and can alter the distribution of the currents. that said, some windings will carry more load or even the wire wounds themselves.

so what does this mean, simple there is no one factor that nails a failure, could be several. also of note, when the circuit is on, the voltage is reduced and this also has effects but still the greater load goes to the system.

bustert
6th October 2016, 15:18
some interesting things about the hd system. i did not factor in effiency rating and all things are considered maximum values with data take from hd documentation.
1. system max amps = 22
2. @ 2000 rpm volt x amps = 323.4 watts
3. @ 2000 rpm current level @ 13.0vdc = 19>23 amps

we now have maximum watts available dc. using zener value range

1. 323.4/ 38vac = 8.5 amps
2. 323.4/ 52vac = 6.2 amps

these are the amp draw required from the stator. NOTICE as the voltage climbs, the amperage goes down, product of OHM's law.

electrical loading

1. headlight = 5.0 amps
2. position = .32
3. tail = .59
4. stop = 2.25
5. running/signal = 2.25 front and 2.25 rear = 4.5 amp
6 ignition = 3.0 > 5.0 amps

total draw = 17.6 amps (times 14.7vdc = 258.72 watts) (using max zener cut off)

take 258.7 from available = 64.7 watts reserve

1. 64.7 watts/ 44vac = 1.47 amps
2. 64.7 watts/ 50vac = 1.29 amps

this would be the zener cut in amps ac to be shunted, notice as vac goes up, the amperage goes down, once again a product of OHM's law.

also, one has to consider: what is the average value of an ac sine wave??? of coarse that would be ZERO volts and with out volts, can there be amps? that is why one has to use the RMS values to calculate dc equivalent. point being, there isn't a massive amount of current being shunted to ground. by the way, the hd regulator is a series unit WITH shunt over voltage control. the only way to tell if the circuit is active is by monitoring ac wave while going down the road at speed and recording ac wave value and knowing zener cut in value. as long as the value is below it, the system is taking care of the load by keeping voltage in check.

Edster
6th October 2016, 15:24
Replaced the regulator and 4 days later I'm getting low voltage at the batt. When running. 12.5-12.6 vs the 14.1-14.6 as per Cycle Electrics instructions. Could the regulator fry the stator? Or could the regulator go bad?

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bustert
6th October 2016, 16:01
I can jump back later with some hd manual testing stuff
but: reach out to the sportsterdoc as he is well informed on these issues. I am in the process of making purlings for a roof and have to get busy, time for play is over for now.

sportsterdoc
7th October 2016, 22:59
Let's start with this:

Stator and Regulator Testing
Measure stator resistance to ground (∞) and stator resistance (0.1 to 0.5 ohm, depending upon system), pin to pin.
22 amp system ~ 0.2 to 0.4 ohms
32 amp system ~ 0.1 to 0.2 ohms

Generally, I just figure that if wiring (double check regulator ground)and stator check OK, blame the regulator.

If you have a diode setting on your multimeter, you can use a test sequence adapted from JPCycles. I can post that, if you want.

Just when I thought I was caught up, work is calling. Will check back later.

One more thing: Is the regulator well grounded to the mount? What is resistance from mount surface to battery negative post?

Edster
8th October 2016, 01:16
Let's start with this:

Stator and Regulator Testing
Measure stator resistance to ground (∞) and stator resistance (0.1 to 0.5 ohm, depending upon system), pin to pin.
22 amp system ~ 0.2 to 0.4 ohms
32 amp system ~ 0.1 to 0.2 ohms

Generally, I just figure that if wiring (double check regulator ground)and stator check OK, blame the regulator.

If you have a diode setting on your multimeter, you can use a test sequence adapted from JPCycles. I can post that, if you want.

Just when I thought I was caught up, work is calling. Will check back later.

One more thing: Is the regulator well grounded to the mount? What is resistance from mount surface to battery negative post?
Thanks. Did the test light to ground in the stator plug as its running and got lights. According to Cycle Electric, stator is bad. I called them and they confirmed it. Hopefully the new regulator is still ok after the stator quit.

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sportsterdoc
8th October 2016, 01:22
The stator may be bad, but what test light did you use to ground with the AC output live?
Best to use ohmeter on de-energized circuit.

bgavin
8th October 2016, 03:00
If you have a diode setting on your multimeter, you can use a test sequence adapted from JPCycles. I can post that, if you want.
Please do. It would be very helpful.

Edster
8th October 2016, 03:36
The stator may be bad, but what test light did you use to ground with the AC output live?
Best to use ohmeter on de-energized circuit.
Automotive probe type test light with a alligator clip on a pigtail. Clip was on ground and probe was in stator holes in plug.

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sportsterdoc
8th October 2016, 04:16
Automotive probe type test light with a alligator clip on a pigtail. Clip was on ground and probe was in stator holes in plug.

Best to retest with an ohmmeter, no power from AC stator leads.
Was stator unplugged from harness?

Is the regulator well grounded to the mount? What is resistance from mount surface to battery negative post?

sportsterdoc
8th October 2016, 04:19
Please do. It would be very helpful.

Post one, about 3/4 down

http://xlforum.net/vbportal/forums/showthread.php?t=1986193

Stator and regulator testing
Measure stator resistance to ground (∞) and stator resistance (0.1 to 0.5 ohm, depending upon system), pin to pin.
22 amp system ~ 0.2 to 0.4 ohms
32 amp system ~ 0.1 to 0.2 ohms

If you have a diode setting on your multimeter, you can use this test sequence adapted from JPCycles.

Generally, I just figure that if wiring (double check regulator ground)and stator check OK, blame the regulator.

Regulator Test: Each of the following tests isolates the regulator only, so if any of these tests fail, the regulator is at fault.

Identifying Wires:
Battery Charge Lead– Wire going from regulator to battery positive.
AC output leads– Wires coming from the Stator to regulator.
Ground– Wire from Regulator to ground or regulator may be grounded via the physical bolting to chassis.

Regulator Ground Test: Insure the regulator body is grounded or grounding wire is fastened tight to a good ground (you should verify this by checking continuity from regulator body to chassis ground).

Fwd/Reverse Bias Test/Diode Test: This check is testing the Diode function to ensure it is regulating the AC current for the stator into DC Current.

Switch multi meter to Diode Scale.
Place your Multi meter positive lead on each AC output wire.
Place your multi meter negative lead on the battery Charge wire.
The meter should read voltage typically around .5 volts.
Next, switch your multi meter leads putting the negative lead on the AC output wires and the Positive lead on the Battery Charge Wire.
The reading should be Infinite.
With your meter on the same setting, place your multi meter positive lead on the regulator ground wire or to the regulator directly, and then place your meter negative lead on the AC output leads.
The meter should read voltage typically around .5 volts.
Next, switch your multi meter leads putting the negative lead on the regulator ground and the Positive lead on the AC output wires.
The reading should be Infinite.

Edster
8th October 2016, 04:21
Best to retest with an ohmmeter, no power from AC stator leads.
Testing for shorts to ground

xThe best way to test for shorts to ground is with a 12-volt test light. Sometimes an ohms meter will not pick up a short to ground. The light test is better.

Using a standard automotive test light, connect the ground clip to a good ground. Test the light by touching the probe to something positive such as the positive battery terminal. The light should light indicating you have a good ground. Now you are ready to start the test.

Unplug the regulator from the stator and start the motor. Probe each stator pin with the test light one at a time. If the bulb lights when connected between any of the stator plug pins and ground the stator is shorted and needs to be replaced.

Copied from Cycle Electric's website.

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sportsterdoc
8th October 2016, 05:10
BTW, They make good products, but there are holes in their diagnostics suggestions.
No point arguing.

If replacing the stator does not solve your problems, check the resistance to ground on the regulator mount.

sportsterdoc
8th October 2016, 05:21
For the benefit of future references to this thread...

Here are other sources of trustworthy methods to properly check your charging system:

http://blog.jpcycles.com/step-by-step-instructions-for-testing-your-harleys-charging-system/

https://www.denniskirk.com/learn/how-to-diagnose-motorcycle

http://www.xlforum.net/vbportal/forums/showthread.php?t=634520

The Cycle Electric test suggestions subject your 12 volt test light to 19-26 volts at idle. Blip the throttle and see what that does to the test light.

Not being able to find a ground with an ohmmeter is a statement which needs explaining.

Energizing the stator with voltage is not needed to find a ground. If a winding is shorted, it is shorted energized or de-energized. The exception might possibly be if the rotor rubs a stator winding at one point, each rotation and all the other windings are undamaged.

Checking with an ohmmeter provides a lot more info than a test light. For example, the reading can sometimes identify the approximate location of an out of spec winding resistance.

When you open the inspection cover on the primary, does the primary fluid smell burnt?

Again, the stator may be an issue, but still best to use a VOM for a full check.

BusterT: Back to you

Edster
8th October 2016, 14:20
For the benefit of future references to this thread...

Here are other sources of trustworthy methods to properly check your charging system:

http://blog.jpcycles.com/step-by-step-instructions-for-testing-your-harleys-charging-system/

https://www.denniskirk.com/learn/how-to-diagnose-motorcycle

http://www.xlforum.net/vbportal/forums/showthread.php?t=634520

The Cycle Electric test suggestions subject your 12 volt test light to 19-26 volts at idle. Blip the throttle and see what that does to the test light.

Not being able to find a ground with an ohmmeter is a statement which needs explaining.

Energizing the stator with voltage is not needed to find a ground. If a winding is shorted, it is shorted energized or de-energized. The exception might possibly be if the rotor rubs a stator winding at one point, each rotation and all the other windings are undamaged.

Checking with an ohmmeter provides a lot more info than a test light. For example, the reading can sometimes identify the approximate location of an out of spec winding resistance.

When you open the inspection cover on the primary, does the primary fluid smell burnt?

Again, the stator may be an issue, but still best to use a VOM for a full check.

BusterT: Back to you
Thanks. I haven't opened her up yet. Honey do's, kids school activities court fees for the oldest etc. It looks like Sunday. To homework & school. I did remove the regulator and scaped the paint off where the nolt heads contact. Cleaned threads on both ends and still the same result. I did use a meter to check the ohms but readings were well nelow specs.

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bustert
8th October 2016, 21:27
down from nose bleed ladder work, temporary. this is out of most people's budget and for something not used enough, probably not worth buying but a heck of a good deal if a comprade has one.
the ohm meter is a good go/no-go test but can be very inconclusive. a short between wounds can not be detected yet it basically shortens the coil and output. the same goes for the test light. if one were to use a meg-ohm meter, it could tell you much more but!!! if in the wrong hands and operated wrongly, it can and will destroy the stator so care must be a priority! another tool but out of most reach is the o-scope on a dynamic test.
the stator could test good but still have dynamic issue as was brought out earlier in the thread.
if you do as the doc says, it will pretty much lead you down the path you need to go.

Edster
8th October 2016, 21:59
down from nose bleed ladder work, temporary. this is out of most people's budget and for something not used enough, probably not worth buying but a heck of a good deal if a comprade has one.
the ohm meter is a good go/no-go test but can be very inconclusive. a short between wounds can not be detected yet it basically shortens the coil and output. the same goes for the test light. if one were to use a meg-ohm meter, it could tell you much more but!!! if in the wrong hands and operated wrongly, it can and will destroy the stator so care must be a priority! another tool but out of most reach is the o-scope on a dynamic test.
the stator could test good but still have dynamic issue as was brought out earlier in the thread.
if you do as the doc says, it will pretty much lead you down the path you need to go.
I drained the primary and the oil stank like something electrical was cooked. I reckon its the stator.

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sportsterdoc
9th October 2016, 00:28
I drained the primary and the oil stank like something electrical was cooked. I reckon its the stator.

OK, that is a more objective observation.

I have three goals posting on the Forum:
1. Help forum members in solving issues
2. Try to reduce the cost of throwing parts at a problem, which usually saves $.
3. Continue to stimulate the gray cells and share what I have picked up over the decades.

Number 2 was my concern in the earlier posts.

The stator has been the likely culprit, but I was encouraging a more proper test before reaching a conclusion.

Test lights can find some issues, but they are very limited in providing information.

On a 22 amp stator, the total winding resistance is only 0.2 to 0.4 ohms.
If the reading, lead to lead, is within that range, the windings may be good.

However, if one coil is grounded (a common failure mode), even though the stator may put out voltage, it will not function properly.

If the overall resistance from lead 1 to lead 2 is 0.3 ohms and the ground is 1/3 of the winding distance from lead 1 to lead 2, the reading from lead 1 to ground should be about 0.1 ohm. The reading from lead 2 to ground should be about 0.2 ohms.

A ground may occur without a burnt smell. However, if you get a balanced reading in the resistance to ground, then all indications point to time to get into the primary.

If the clutch is old, might be a good time to replace it, if funds permit.

Again, I strongly recommend that you check the resistance from regulator mounting to battery negative terminal. It should be less than 0.1 ohm. If higher, clean the surface, apply conductive grease and remount the regulator.

Beginning in 2004, the regulator ground is a separate wire to the harness ground. The harness ground system has its own issues (stud into trans has a tendency to corrode the internal threads), but 2003 and earlier regulators are only grounded to the frame. Rust and crud do not benefit the regulator or stator.

Any rider dealing with even minor electrical issues should invest in a multi-meter. BusterT would probably suggest an oscilloscope! But not many of us have his background. Even though my shop has high caliber test equipment, I rarely use anything more sophisticated than a Radio Shack 22-820 for about $30. I have 4 of them and each of my 4 kids has one.

The only thing I miss not using an analog VOM is testing automotive condensers.

OK, stepping off the soap box. Let us know how cooked it is.

Edster
9th October 2016, 00:56
OK, that is a more objective observation.

I have three goals posting on the Forum:
1. Help forum members in solving issues
2. Try to reduce the cost of throwing parts at a problem, which usually saves $.
3. Continue to stimulate the gray cells and share what I have picked up over the decades.

Number 2 was my concern in the earlier posts.

The stator has been the likely culprit, but I was encouraging a more proper test before reaching a conclusion.

Test lights can find some issues, but they are very limited in providing information.

On a 22 amp stator, the total winding resistance is only 0.2 to 0.4 ohms.
If the reading, lead to lead, is within that range, the windings may be good.

However, if one coil is grounded (a common failure mode), even though the stator may put out voltage, it will not function properly.

If the overall resistance from lead 1 to lead 2 is 0.3 ohms and the ground is 1/3 of the winding distance from lead 1 to lead 2, the reading from lead 1 to ground should be about 0.1 ohm. The reading from lead 2 to ground should be about 0.2 ohms.

A ground may occur without a burnt smell. However, if you get a balanced reading in the resistance to ground, then all indications point to time to get into the primary.

If the clutch is old, might be a good time to replace it, if funds permit.

Again, I strongly recommend that you check the resistance from regulator mounting to battery negative terminal. It should be less than 0.1 ohm. If higher, clean the surface, apply conductive grease and remount the regulator.

Beginning in 2004, the regulator ground is a separate wire to the harness ground. The harness ground system has its own issues (stud into trans has a tendency to corrode the internal threads), but 2003 and earlier regulators are only grounded to the frame. Rust and crud do not benefit the regulator or stator.

Any rider dealing with even minor electrical issues should invest in a multi-meter. BusterT would probably suggest an oscilloscope! But not many of us have his background. Even though my shop has high caliber test equipment, I rarely use anything more sophisticated than a Radio Shack 22-820 for about $30. I have 4 of them and each of my 4 kids has one.

The only thing I miss not using an analog VOM is testing automotive condensers.

OK, stepping off the soap box. Let us know how cooked it is.
Thanks for the help. I did check the stator with a meter. The ohms were well below the specs. I'm just concerned about the vr/r. It was supposed to extend the life of the stator. But it could've gone anyway. I understand about the clutch. Its not about funds as much as it is about time. School today, shops closed tomorrow, work and school Monday, bike is somewhat primary transportation. Wished I could've at least got my hands on some friction plates.

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Edster
9th October 2016, 00:58
OK, that is a more objective observation.

I have three goals posting on the Forum:
1. Help forum members in solving issues
2. Try to reduce the cost of throwing parts at a problem, which usually saves $.
3. Continue to stimulate the gray cells and share what I have picked up over the decades.

Number 2 was my concern in the earlier posts.

The stator has been the likely culprit, but I was encouraging a more proper test before reaching a conclusion.

Test lights can find some issues, but they are very limited in providing information.

On a 22 amp stator, the total winding resistance is only 0.2 to 0.4 ohms.
If the reading, lead to lead, is within that range, the windings may be good.

However, if one coil is grounded (a common failure mode), even though the stator may put out voltage, it will not function properly.

If the overall resistance from lead 1 to lead 2 is 0.3 ohms and the ground is 1/3 of the winding distance from lead 1 to lead 2, the reading from lead 1 to ground should be about 0.1 ohm. The reading from lead 2 to ground should be about 0.2 ohms.

A ground may occur without a burnt smell. However, if you get a balanced reading in the resistance to ground, then all indications point to time to get into the primary.

If the clutch is old, might be a good time to replace it, if funds permit.

Again, I strongly recommend that you check the resistance from regulator mounting to battery negative terminal. It should be less than 0.1 ohm. If higher, clean the surface, apply conductive grease and remount the regulator.

Beginning in 2004, the regulator ground is a separate wire to the harness ground. The harness ground system has its own issues (stud into trans has a tendency to corrode the internal threads), but 2003 and earlier regulators are only grounded to the frame. Rust and crud do not benefit the regulator or stator.

Any rider dealing with even minor electrical issues should invest in a multi-meter. BusterT would probably suggest an oscilloscope! But not many of us have his background. Even though my shop has high caliber test equipment, I rarely use anything more sophisticated than a Radio Shack 22-820 for about $30. I have 4 of them and each of my 4 kids has one.

The only thing I miss not using an analog VOM is testing automotive condensers.

OK, stepping off the soap box. Let us know how cooked it is.
Automotive condensers! Not to many folks know about those! I reckon you're at the youngest my age (48)!

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Edster
9th October 2016, 15:06
4 months shy of 70
My "kids" are 44, 41, 39 and 35
Kids are 27, 23, 17, 14, & 9. I started over at 31.

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Edster
9th October 2016, 15:08
4 months shy of 70
Right on! Gonna go tackle this job. While every one is asleep. I'll take pic.

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Edster
9th October 2016, 15:33
http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161009/e8c4eb1892c9f9c99d9d591f63ae9c43.jpg
I can't see much from here but it smells whin I sniff it.

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161009/22f7d29309038f3f6cb30bea243da8df.jpg

The silver "stripes" seem to wipe off.

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bgavin
9th October 2016, 17:00
Wow... how beautifully clean on the inside. Kudos.

Edster
9th October 2016, 17:55
Wow... how beautifully clean on the inside. Kudos.
http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161009/f0281f28e98b3e829bd672d9d7d8c0ca.jpghttp://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161009/be5b945a9fb4534dd5b220abb1a6c51f.jpg

I do believe its fried.

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rocketmangb
9th October 2016, 18:10
I do believe !
When mine died I had purchased a Cycle Electric regulator after reading this post.
Well before I had a chance to put it on I blew up the spring plate in the clutch so I ordered the Alto Carbonite clutch and installed it and it works great !
Well a week later the stator died !
Looked like a chunk of rivet got in there and shorted the stator so we had to go back in there and replace it with a Cycle Electric unit.
I would suggest you do the clutch at this time friend if you havent already.

bustert
9th October 2016, 22:07
boy rocket, if you didn't have bad luck, you wouldn't have any luck at all!?!

rocketmangb
9th October 2016, 22:31
Hey bustert !
Now I need to go back in and check the clutch pack !
I'm thinking the clutch is OK but needs checking as the stock pressure diaphragm dont be liking the 111 HP the motor makes now.
Pull the clutch down and mic all the plates.
Installing a 20% stronger Barnett plate and Barnett cable as well as the angular contact t/o bearing and a soft pull ramp.
Last trip to the Dyno she sounded like it was getting away from the clutch about 6500 RPM
At the same time I will install the HSR48 Mikuni and Hammer billet manifold and see if I can sneak up on 120 HP

sportsterdoc
9th October 2016, 22:38
...I would suggest you do the clutch at this time friend if you haven't already.

Yep
"If the clutch is old, might be a good time to replace it, if funds permit." from post 188, but probably lost in the middle as I got much more verbose than normal. I was aghast that CE would promote a test light over an ohmmeter.

Edster
10th October 2016, 01:46
Well its done. All readings are in spec. I did inspect the clutch and there seemed to be enough friction material to last a while. Basket was clean and burr free. A few steels looked like they got a little hot but nothing major and the spring plate looked good.

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bustert
10th October 2016, 14:59
yea rocket, my hold back is the carb and have been reluctant to swap. it acts as a deterrent. oh it will eventually pull up to speed just takes a little more road.
the hd shop manual uses the test light thingy to check charge system components.
I probably will do something but my exhaust will become another thorn, sure wish patriot does something soon. would prefer to do everything at once.:geek

bustert
12th October 2016, 00:49
getting back to the original thread, there is a lot of speculation and talk about the system loading and parasitic losses.
does anyone want to take a stab at the subject.
what are the losses
what causes them
what can be done
what really are the losses vs fable

sportsterdoc
12th October 2016, 02:11
I am strongly in favor of the series regulator (CE), as it does not unnecessarily load the stator as does the OEM. Been preaching that for quite some time.

What is on your mind with the term parasitic losses?

Are you thinking alternator inefficiency, such as eddy currents or are you thinking about unnecessary load or...?

bustert
12th October 2016, 03:32
well mr. doc, look at the two circuits of hd regulators I posted. notice that they are series regulators. to tell the diff would be to look at where the load is placed. the CE hype is to make you think otherwise, and yes there are shunt types out there, but these are hd units.
everyone says there is gobs of waste so I want to see what they are calling waste and if the theory holds true. the ac/dc currents has already been addressed. but along with electrical, there is magnetic circuits and they are intertwined. truth be told, the hd system is pretty good.

sportsterdoc
12th October 2016, 04:55
OK, now I understand your query...but no answers!

rocketmangb
12th October 2016, 05:15
I assumed if the stator wasnt forced into full output at all times the primary would run cooler ?
My bike runs about 14.2 VDC charging at idle and maxes out at 14.8 VDC

IXL2Relax
12th October 2016, 10:12
well mr. doc, look at the two circuits of hd regulators I posted. notice that they are series regulators. to tell the diff would be to look at where the load is placed. the CE hype is to make you think otherwise, and yes there are shunt types out there, but these are hd units.
everyone says there is gobs of waste so I want to see what they are calling waste and if the theory holds true. the ac/dc currents has already been addressed. but along with electrical, there is magnetic circuits and they are intertwined. truth be told, the hd system is pretty good.

You need to explain these results:

====== Summarized from earlier in this thread ==========

LuxBlue (2004 XL1200 Custom) took these actual readings as follows:
Using HD OEM Regulator - Bike Warmed Up
950rpm - Using 9 DCamps - Producing 13.3 ACamps from Stator
2000rpm - Using ??? - Producing 25.7 ACamps from Stator

Using CE Regulator - Bike Just Started
Idle? - Using 20 DCamps (to charge battery?)

Using CE Regulator - Bike Warmed Up
950rpm - Using 12.3 DCamps @ 14.28v - (still charging)
- Producing 13.3 ACamps from Stator
2100rpm - Using ??? - Producing 14.9 ACamps @ 14.45v

After battery fully recharged, using (consuming) 9.2 DCamps
=================================

From what year and model bike are the schematics & regulator that you posted? From what source are these schematics?

How do you explain (for LuxBlue's bike) that with the HD OEM Regulator, at 2000rpm, the Stator was producing 25.7 ACamps (obviously being drawn by/thru the regulator)?

While with the CE Regulator, at 2100rpm, the Stator was producing only 14.9 ACamps (obviously being drawn by/thru the regulator)?

.....~\
__o~~o__
IXL2Relax
>>>> Build & Ride Reports Are Here <<<< (http://thecyberzoo.com/kt-ridereports.html)

Reference the XLForum Sportsterpedia (http://sportsterpedia.com/doku.php?id=how_to:start)
for additional technical information & advice

sportsterdoc
12th October 2016, 14:49
I assumed if the stator wasnt forced into full output at all times the primary would run cooler ?
My bike runs about 14.2 VDC charging at idle and maxes out at 14.8 VDC

Stator windings would run cooler from less load...but with engine heat, don'tknow if it would affect primary fluid temperature.

Winding temperature is a major factor in winding life.

http://toshont.com/ag/mtrldesign/AG05%20(Temperature%20Rise).pdf

See also post 6 of this thread

http://xlforum.net/vbportal/forums/showthread.php?t=1979614&highlight=Class

And this

http://www.cycleelectricinc.com/STATORS.html

bustert
12th October 2016, 15:32
mr. lax
the info is for the rigid sportsters, the efi units have more capacity, all info is taken from hd documentation.
first of all: a WATT is a measurement of energy and has nothing to do with the voltage and amperage readings. although they are used in the calculation, a watt is one joule per second. this is what produces work. you can push on a rock all day long and if it does not move, you performed ZERO WORK.
the hd documentation says 22amps and using max zener value it produces 323.4 watts. remember, a watt is a watt!
when you are comparing ac & dc the common denominator is watts, not voltage nor amps. there are plenty of online calculators that will do the math for you since calculating the rms values are time consuming. as my post showing the values of current are in line with these calculators.
there is an answer to your question, but think about it. I am not denying his readings but the fact remains that the hd regulator is a series unit WITH ac voltage over-voltage protection. the way ce conditions the current is diff but the hd system does not dump massive amounts of current and what it does shunt is ac and not dc, a big diff. I do question his interpretation, does he know how the meter actually works. does he know what type of meter it is as there are two types.
what about the pmg itself? it does play a role so what is it.

bustert
13th October 2016, 17:26
using your posted info, i ran the numbers!
STOCK
1. 950 rpm @ startup: 13.9vdc batt @ 13.3 stator reading = 184.9 watts / 44vac (using middle value since you did not supply stator voltage) = 4.2 amp stator output
2. 950 rpm @ warm up 13.9vdc @ 9 amps = 125.1 watts/44vac = 2.8 amps
3. 2000 rpm @ warm up 13.9vdc @ 25.7 amps = 357.2 watts/44vac = 8.1 stator output

CE
1. startup: 13.4vdc @ 20 amps = 268 watts/44vac = 6 amps
2. warm up with batt 14.28vdc @ 12.3 amps = 175.6 watts/44vac = 3.99 amps stator output
3. 2100 rpm 14.5vdc @ 13.3 amps = 192.8 watts/44vac = 4.38 amps stator output.
your so called stator reading 14.5 amps X batt 14.5vdc = 210.2 watts/44vac = 4.78 amps stator output.
4. so called batt charged up 12.2 amps stator reading in reality 12.2 amps X 14.5vdc = 177 watts /44vac = 4 amps stator out put.

really what is the math??? since when is 6 minus 4 equals 13.8 .

using max zener cut off:
1. hd sys = 22 amp/14.7vdc = 323 watts/44vac = 7.3 amps stator output. @ 6 amps output = 264 watts
2. 6 amps stator output = 264 watts & 4 amps stator output = 176 watts using these, the excess would be 1.3>3.3amps. NOT 13.8amps! we did not consider the effects of the protection circuit.

the hd sys uses 15 awg magnet wire rated 4.3>6.5 amps in a power transmission role and 28 amps as a free air chassis role and can be run to 8250hz before skin effects start. that said, hd did not waste money did they, it was engineered to do the job at least cost.
why waste money on a fancy dancy regulator? sure you can build a better mouse trap and CE is just that. without having one to reverse engineer, there are several ways to accomplish the task. it is a simple as a electronic dimmer switch or a scr drive. the switch mode power supplies use the principle and they are in just about everything.
you can control power from a ac wave buy selecting timing and duration of conductivity.

facts about a PMG
1. does not have a power factor of 1, very luck to get .8.
2. the PMG is a fixed system, can not be altered
3. voltage is dependant upon load
4. has intertwined magnetic and electrical circuits.
5. due to counter magnetic fields, increasing hertz = increased harmonics = heat & insulation failure.
6. wire guage and rpm dependant.
7. magnetic saturation effects heating and electrical capacity.
8. higher rpm produces more power and ripple is less that at low speeds.

that said, while CE solved one issue, it created another, perhaps why they sell a stator with increase temperature capacity, you know harley didn't.

there are two types of meters. one is a MEAN output and the other is a RMS output which the fluke is. there are cheap meters that uses diodes or bridge to convert the magnetic field to a reading and there are the transformer type which uses amplitude to scale a reading. the MEAN output is actual and will read way lower valves than the RMS. the RMS is the dc equivalent of the ac form. ac currents and dc currents are not the same. so when you clamped the meter to ac lead, you saw RMS and not MEAN.
these are for clamp on, the inline meter is way more accurate as it sees actual current and shunts a portion across a precision resistor and the voltage drop is used to calculate the current value.
i will post a small clip
can you tell me why the readings changed when it switch the clamp on meter?
to show not only mechanical loss but magnetic effects, i am assuming a 6.5% increase in parasitic loading.

the hd system @ 325 watts requires .43hp to move + about 6.5% magnetic load so .46hp to turn the pmg. the bull about reduced load, reduced drag, maybe so in a field forced alternator but the pmg is fixed and can not be altered.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jK78jb8gtHs

juzyHD
17th October 2016, 10:06
So what is the conclusion? Is it worth to buy a CE regulator? Will the stator suffer less with it?
Is there any other risk with CE reg?
Maybe some pros and cons for each?

I'm asking cause I'll probably buy a new regulator during the winter...

sportsterdoc
17th October 2016, 13:59
Made in USA, 2 year warranty
http://www.cycleelectricinc.com/

bustert
17th October 2016, 15:09
the conclusion is buy the system. it is just a better mouse trap, I do not knock it. Harley engineered cheap and it is a good system and thousands are on the road. my issue is the hype. the old saying "got to make someone look bad so I can look good" applies to way more than regulators. with their 600* varnish, it supercedes the hd 400>450* varnish and can with stand the effects they induce. proof is in the pudding, where is their data that proves it will out live the hd system, hd goes back decades with thousands still running original units.

sportsterdoc
17th October 2016, 17:36
Cycle Electric uses a comparative features and benefits sales approach.
A higher class of winding varnish has a longer life.
Empirical data is readily available.

http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/nema-insulation-classes-d_734.html

When I operated an electric motor rewind shop, we used class F, wheras most stock industrial motors were/are class B. Consequently, under the same conditions, the rewind lasted longer than new.

35 years ago, I served on the board of directors of the SoCal chapter of EASA (Electrical Apparatus Service Association). Don't know if it is still active, but the main purpose was to bring competitors together to exhange rewind data. Quality shops used class F.

I have no data on the winding varnish insulator numbers referenced by CE, but for a H-D stator, I would think class H to be marginal and that higher classes than normal industrial use will result in prolonged winding life.

I do prefer to buy American, not that American is necessarily better than British or German or Italian...but I certainly do not want to send more $ to China.

bustert
17th October 2016, 18:57
super +1 doc.
in the days before "ENGINEERS", things were built as an over-kill. today, cost trumps everything else and hd is not immune.
the problem is as with any electrical is heat. I would like to see historical data on hd failures, taint happening as parts are thrown at it till it is fixed. I believe in " if it ain't broke, don't fix it" but by the same token " if it is broke you can't break it". I always try a fail analysis on everything, if anything, adds to knowledge base. everything we take for granted is based off historical knowledge, shoot are we still sending monkeys up as tests, nope we got people living up there.
if hd did things like some of the rice, run dry alternators, the problem could be reduced, but with the design currently used, they do not want to spend the money. sure hd could do better and should but the upper echelons would have to take a cut, taint happening. truth be told, hd will eventually be rice, look at the wet sump system and h2o cooling, controls emissions way better.
I would not say made in America, truth be known, assembled in America maybe a better description. getting away with American made electronics is like buying an American made crt, tain't any, as most is farmed out again cost. silicon valley while tops in smarts, they do not make a dent in components. at one time usa did and the world wanted them even if not working. when I was into tv and other electronics, I would sell all my junk boards to a company that sold them over-seas like Russia and such, the hobbyists there would dis-mantel and build from our throw-a-ways because they could not get it there. now, you can buy anything via the net. I do not even keep cross ref anymore, google the number, get all the data, hit ebay and buy.

oh btw:

do you know the diff between COWBOY boots and ENGINEER boot??

sportsterdoc
17th October 2016, 21:19
do you know the diff between COWBOY boots and ENGINEER boot??

Probably the difference between dung on the outside and dung on the inside?

BTW, I may be an automation engineer, but my boots are western :tour