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GOTWA
18th April 2005, 03:20
So on our poker run yesterday, there was a mix of bikes and riders. There were only five of us on HD's (very disappointed in the local HD riders) and the rest ranged from ancient Yammi's to V-Stars and Gold Wings.

So the plan was, at our last stop, we'd all meet up and wait until every rider got in. That way we could form up as a group and ride to the Guild School together to make the donation. Cool.

The last stop was on a four lane highway with a center turn lane, 55mph. We all pull out into the right lane. And given the length of the group, not all of us were able to get over into the left lane for the turn we had to make up ahead.

Now, one lady in a car was real cool and let a bunch of the bikes over. But then she cut into the turn lane and this :censor hole in a big Dodge never-seen-gravel pickup that was behind her just zoomed up on the back of the pack. So there was me and four bikes behind me that needed over. We had time so I wasn't too worried but we would need to get over before long.

No biggy, I'll just drop back and get in behind the truck. Nope. This SOB slows down with me. So I speed up. He speeds up. He's got his wife and kid in the truck and I look into his window and can tell his wife is pissed at him and telling him to knock it off. The guy looks at me and I lift my left hand into the air and shrug. He just gives me a nasty look. I have no frickin idea what his hang up was but he definately didn't like us. What was worse was we were just down the road from the USAF base and he had a DD Fm 2220 on his window. That's a sticker that get's you onto base. So he was Air Force. Damnit I was Air Force for 11 years!

So I shoot up next to this guy on his GW. He's very proper, sitting straight up, etc. No biggy. Because of the staggered formation, he's in the left lane but next to the right lane. So I pull up next to him and yell, "Move over. I'll cut in and slow down and let everyone else in." The dude looks at me and shakes his no! I'm like WTF!!!??? So he has this Dodge on his ass, our turn is comming up, traffic is stacked up behind the Dodge so now we can't got over and I tell him again, "Just move over and let me in. Turn's coming." He makes a quick glance at me and again shakes his head.

So now I'm really pissed. I mean come on. I can see our light up ahead (miss that turn it would be another few miles or so before you can get off the highway) and I just hammer the throttle, zing up further into the bike crowd until I see an open space in the formation, move over, and start dropping back. I make my way back until I am beside the guy on the GW and in front of the Dodge.

I slow down and slow down and this guy's truck is running right up my ass but eventually the last couple bikes get over and we all make the turn.

So when we get to our destination, I ask the guy, "Why wouldn't you let me over? Couldn't you hear me?" He says, "I heard you but if I would have moved over I would have been right behind that other bike and in this weather that was too dangerous." I just looked at him with my mouth open.

Okay, I'm all about safety and safe riding but come on. A little more conversation revealed this guy is a SERIOUS MSF guy and won't do anything they don't acknowledge. To include I guess help out fellow bikers. It ain't in the manual so I ain't doing it. I was pissed to say the least but just walked away from it.

cantolina
18th April 2005, 03:29
So on our poker run yesterday, there was a mix of bikes and riders. There were only five of us on HD's (very disappointed in the local HD riders) and the rest ranged from ancient Yammi's to V-Stars and Gold Wings.

So the plan was, at our last stop, we'd all meet up and wait until every rider got in. That way we could form up as a group and ride to the Guild School together to make the donation. Cool.

The last stop was on a four lane highway with a center turn lane, 55mph. We all pull out into the right lane. And given the length of the group, not all of us were able to get over into the left lane for the turn we had to make up ahead.

Now, one lady in a car was real cool and let a bunch of the bikes over. But then she cut into the turn lane and this :censor hole in a big Dodge never-seen-gravel pickup that was behind her just zoomed up on the back of the pack. So there was me and four bikes behind me that needed over. We had time so I wasn't too worried but we would need to get over before long.

No biggy, I'll just drop back and get in behind the truck. Nope. This SOB slows down with me. So I speed up. He speeds up. He's got his wife and kid in the truck and I look into his window and can tell his wife is pissed at him and telling him to knock it off. The guy looks at me and I lift my left hand into the air and shrug. He just gives me a nasty look. I have no frickin idea what his hang up was but he definately didn't like us. What was worse was we were just down the road from the USAF base and he had a DD Fm 2220 on his window. That's a sticker that get's you onto base. So he was Air Force. Damnit I was Air Force for 11 years!

So I shoot up next to this guy on his GW. He's very proper, sitting straight up, etc. No biggy. Because of the staggered formation, he's in the left lane but next to the right lane. So I pull up next to him and yell, "Move over. I'll cut in and slow down and let everyone else in." The dude looks at me and shakes his no! I'm like WTF!!!??? So he has this Dodge on his ass, our turn is comming up, traffic is stacked up behind the Dodge so now we can't got over and I tell him again, "Just move over and let me in. Turn's coming." He makes a quick glance at me and again shakes his head.

So now I'm really pissed. I mean come on. I can see our light up ahead (miss that turn it would be another few miles or so before you can get off the highway) and I just hammer the throttle, zing up further into the bike crowd until I see an open space in the formation, move over, and start dropping back. I make my way back until I am beside the guy on the GW and in front of the Dodge.

I slow down and slow down and this guy's truck is running right up my ass but eventually the last couple bikes get over and we all make the turn.

So when we get to our destination, I ask the guy, "Why wouldn't you let me over? Couldn't you hear me?" He says, "I heard you but if I would have moved over I would have been right behind that other bike and in this weather that was too dangerous." I just looked at him with my mouth open.

Okay, I'm all about safety and safe riding but come on. A little more conversation revealed this guy is a SERIOUS MSF guy and won't do anything they don't acknowledge. To include I guess help out fellow bikers. It ain't in the manual so I ain't doing it. I was pissed to say the least but just walked away from it.

Describe the weather and road conditions, please....I'm a bit confused as to lane positions and numbers, weather, etc...

wagoneer12
18th April 2005, 03:39
Gotwa, I feel for ya man. I was becoming frustrated as I read it. First the Dodge then the Goldwing.

Seems like all he had to do was slow down and let all of you in front of him.

The joys of group riding....with a bunch of strangers.

I like group riding o.k., but I really like it when its a small group and we all know each other well. Sort of on the same page, thinking without speaking.

All's well that ends well.

Stay safe,

Vic
Manitowoc, WI

GOTWA
18th April 2005, 03:52
Describe the weather and road conditions, please....I'm a bit confused as to lane positions and numbers, weather, etc...

Hey Chuck,

The roads were wet for sure, no question caution was called for. But the group was strung out into a nice staggered formation so if he had moved over to his left, the far side of his lane and behind the bike in front of him, he'd of had plenty of reaction room. And all I wanted to do was get into the lane, then I would have dropped back and moved so he could get back over.

Don't get me wrong, I AM A HUGE PROPONENT of MSF. But you have to interject some common sense too. This guys whole attitude was, the intructor didn't say it was okay so I am not doing it.

Granted, my patience was running thin but I just couldn't understand why he wouldn't ease over.

I don't know, maybe I'm flustered over nothing. But it sure seemed to me like he was more concerned about the "letter of the law" instead of the "intent of the law." Meaning safety rules.

cantolina
18th April 2005, 14:17
Hey Chuck,

The roads were wet for sure, no question caution was called for. But the group was strung out into a nice staggered formation so if he had moved over to his left, the far side of his lane and behind the bike in front of him, he'd of had plenty of reaction room. And all I wanted to do was get into the lane, then I would have dropped back and moved so he could get back over.

Don't get me wrong, I AM A HUGE PROPONENT of MSF. But you have to interject some common sense too. This guys whole attitude was, the intructor didn't say it was okay so I am not doing it.

Granted, my patience was running thin but I just couldn't understand why he wouldn't ease over.

I don't know, maybe I'm flustered over nothing. But it sure seemed to me like he was more concerned about the "letter of the law" instead of the "intent of the law." Meaning safety rules.

Not having been there, its hard to get a good picture in my mind...

This IS, in fact, GREAT fodder for discussion...

Could you draw this and scan it? I'd really like to discuss this further, because in general, I agree with you...but I'm still cloudy on the exact placement of all traffic....

NOT being argumentative...this really interests me...

jwb47
18th April 2005, 14:39
that is exaxctly why I am the grouchy old bastard who wont join the local riding group. I prefer to ride by myself or with a couple of close friends . I have been asked time and again to join the club or go on group rides but I just cant bring myself to put my personal saftey in some strangers hands.

sportsterrific
18th April 2005, 14:40
Under the circumstance, it was the truck driver being an a-hole that compromised everyone else's safety. Unfortunately, he had a malicious intent, whatever his reason, & was probably making the GW rider nervous. Unless you have walkie-talkie communications with other riders they don't know what you're thinking, nor can they interpret the logic behind your attempted actions, especially if they are anal about following the 'rules' of the road.
The important thing is that you finshed the ride safely.
I am personally wary about group rides with a bunch of people I've never ridden with. Unless of course, they ride Sportsters, in which case they are obviously good riders!

cantolina
18th April 2005, 14:54
Under the circumstance, it was the truck driver being an a-hole that compromised everyone else's safety.

Certainly you are correct. I'm more interested in seeing the group dynamic, and understanding what the safest course of action was for the individual riders, as well as the group, as a whole..

Definately something to be said for two-way communications between the lead and the sweeper, in those larger groups....

As a sweeper, I might have called attention to a dangerous situation and asked the lead to pull the group over....

But again, I'd love to get a better picture in my mind of THAT particular scenario....

DM-SC
18th April 2005, 15:15
It sure seems logical for the GW rider to simply slow down. By dropping back from the rear of the group, he could have easily created space in front of him for the other riders to change lanes.

As for the idiot in the Dodge Truck...well, that's just plain stupid behaivor on his part. I hope his wife is still giving him a hard time over it...

cantolina
18th April 2005, 15:16
It sure seems logical for the GW rider to simply slow down. By dropping back from the rear of the group, he could have easily created space in front of him for the other riders to change lanes.

As for the idiot in the Dodge Truck...well, that's just plain stupid behaivor on his part. I hope his wife is still giving him a hard time over it...

That was certainly the first thought I had....he didn't make allowances for a tailgater....

Y2K
18th April 2005, 15:40
Dude I've seen HOG chapters scattered all over the freeway and other group rides with inexperienced riders in the pac not knowing how to act or what to do and I for one stay away from riding with larger groups for just that reason.
I have a few bros that I trust to ride with but most often I ride alone.
That's one thing I'll say for the 1% clubs I've been around,they have a tight formation and all know what to do.I've tagged up behind a couple of clubs(invited mind you and at the back of the pac) riding to their clubhouses and although these dudes ride hard and fast they ride tight like a squadron of fighter planes with great presicion.One friend of mine is a long time patcholder in Brother Speed M/C and is also a Washington State MSF instructor.I've never had a desire to join a 1% club but I've got respect for their riding skills.
Y2K :smoke

GOTWA
18th April 2005, 16:41
Chuck,

I'm not taking you as argumentative at all. I'm glad it generates discussion. As much as I like story time, I really do want me and other folks to get something from my rambles. Well, maybe not the shampoo thing. But the other stuff for sure. :laugh I can always stand to learn more and may discover that I was the one doing wrong in certain scenarios. So I think it's good to share and get feedback.

I don't have a scanner but I'm going to try something...

cantolina
18th April 2005, 16:54
Chuck,

I'm not taking you as argumentative at all. I'm glad it generates discussion. As much as I like story time, I really do want me and other folks to get something from my rambles. Well, maybe not the shampoo thing. But the other stuff for sure. :laugh I can always stand to learn more and may discover that I was the one doing wrong in certain scenarios. So I think it's good to share and get feedback.

I don't have a scanner but I'm going to try something...

I'm glad you understand me....I try to use smilies and stuff to indicate my moods, but it doesn't always work! ;)

In my not-so-humble (this time) opinion, this is one of the most interesting and useful discussions (NON-technical) that have shown up here to date....

Personally, I have VERY LITTLE group riding experience....I've always felt the way a lot of guys here do, much rather be alone, or with a fellow or 2 I know and trust....in big groups, I think I'd almost ALWAYS prefer to sweep, or to be 2nd last.....

Maybe you can do something in MS Paint?

I know it a lot of work....but this is a GREAT topic....

GOTWA
18th April 2005, 16:55
See how this works...

If you're using Firefox, click on the image with your magnifying glass to zoom it and it should show up properly.

cantolina
18th April 2005, 17:19
Thanx,

Now I have an accurate indication....here's my assessment:

First- Hostile cager. Refuses to allow traffic into the lane...

Unsafe condition exists and has been identified

Possible solutions:

1. Double-up with the Goldwinger, and slow down traffic to allow the group to re-group and turn together

2. Back off, signalling to riders behind, and find a safer place to change lanes...this rider, in effect, becomes a lead rider, by proxy, and should consider him or herself in control of the remainder of the group, until the bikes re-group.

3. Catch up to the lead, and apprise him.

4. Pull a gun, throw marbles, eggs, what-have-you, in an attempt to further provoke the openly hostile cager, because after all, you're a bad-ass biker, and who does this guy think he's messin with?

Anyone else have possible solutions to offer in this scenario?

(BTW, I don't necessarily condone or agree with what even I'VE written, so go for it..)

doc
18th April 2005, 17:41
Chuck,
I think that under the circumstances (GW rider not willing to move over) that number 2 would probably be the correct way to go about it. If the guy on the GW would have moved over, then I would say slow the back of the pack down to make room for the rest. Anyway, the guy in the truck shoulda had some respect and slowed down in order to let the rest of the group get in.

GOTWA
18th April 2005, 17:41
Thanx,

Now I have an accurate indication....here's my assessment:

First- Hostile cager. Refuses to allow traffic into the lane...

YES! It is possible the leader may have cut him off to start the problem. I don't know as I didn't see it. But either way, the guy was getting a bad case of ass.

Unsafe condition exists and has been identified

Possible solutions:

1. Double-up with the Goldwinger, and slow down traffic to allow the group to re-group and turn together

That's what I wanted to do. But I needed GW Guy to move over and let me in. I think he was pretty rattled by the rain and truck on his fender and just wanted to focus on going straight.

2. Back off, signalling to riders behind, and find a safer place to change lanes...this rider, in effect, becomes a lead rider, by proxy, and should consider him or herself in control of the remainder of the group, until the bikes re-group.

I tried that and he (Dodge) slow down with me and that blocked me out because of the cages behind him. Then when I sped up, he did too. That's why I wanted to get over next to GW Guy. Some of the cagers in the back let a couple bikes over but a few of us were hung out. And we had traffic starting to come up behind us so dropping way back was not a very good option any more.

3. Catch up to the lead, and apprise him.

Wasn't an option. At least not by then. The drawing doesn't show it but there was about a dozen or more bikes in that lead pack. And the turn light was coming up soon. I think the lead rider saw everyone moving over and thought all was well. I don't think he even realized the Dodge became a problem.

In the end, I hand signaled to the trail riders to move up. Then I gunned forward a couple positions, cut left into formation, drifted back a couple bikes until I was beside the GW, and sort of forced the Dodge to slow down. I think two of the bikes moved over then and the other ones, managed to squuze in somewhere behind him. Looking back, forcing the truck to slow down and putting him smack on my ass, especially when he was already pissed, was probably a bad idea. I reckon at that point I was pissed also and that is a bad thing on a bike.

Things happen fast out there. I'm not big on group riding either and this was my first real experience with it. I will ride with my brother in law and best friend any time. They are experienced and react without a lot of communication. If nothing else, I learned to expect the unexpected and that not everyone is going to think like I want them to.

Anyone else have possible solutions to offer in this scenario?

(BTW, I don't necessarily condone or agree with what even I'VE written, so go for it..)

Yes please because I am certainly not suggesting that my way of handling things was the best way.

cantolina
18th April 2005, 17:47
I wonder if we can get a Mod to put a sticky on this for a while....if its seen enough, I'll bet we're gonna get ALL KINDS of responses.....and if we're lucky, we're ALL gonna learn something from this....

doc
18th April 2005, 17:52
There ya go Chuck. Thread is sticky.

Also, on my post above, by making a new smaller group with you becoming the leader, you could pull the smaller group over and wait for traffic to clear enough for you to make it to the turn lane. There is always time to catch up to a group when you are still on two wheels. Never time when there's an accident.

GOTWA
18th April 2005, 17:59
I wonder if we can get a Mod to put a sticky on this for a while....if its seen enough, I'll bet we're gonna get ALL KINDS of responses.....and if we're lucky, we're ALL gonna learn something from this....

I'd also like to get different perspectives. I want to do a couple runs this summer and while the three of us will likely spend most of the runs on our own, there are going to be times (beginning and end) when the group will all be together.

Another thing I thought about was, the leader had us all together and stopped at one location. He probably should have done a quick run-down of what we were going to do and how. I'm not knocking him because I didn't think anything of it at the time. But it probably would have helped.

This reminds me of my screen name: GOTWA. It is actually an acronym used on combat patrols. It is a briefing the leader gives to the rest of the squad if he is going to depart from them for any length of time. It stands for Going (where the leader is headed), Others (who else the leader is taking with him), Time (how long he expects to be gone), What, (what to do if he is late returning), Actions (what the squad should do if they are engaged, compromised, etc).

Not exactly the same type of briefing, but the intent is the same. The leader should make sure everyone understands what is happening and what they should do. Just a thought...

GOTWA
18th April 2005, 18:01
There ya go Chuck. Thread is sticky.

Also, on my post above, by making a new smaller group with you becoming the leader, you could pull the smaller group over and wait for traffic to clear enough for you to make it to the turn lane. There is always time to catch up to a group when you are still on two wheels. Never time when there's an accident.

Looking back, even with the other traffic around, that would have probably been the best option. I got a little rushed because I knew the turn was coming and let my anger at the truck and GW guy cloud my judgement.

wickedsprint
18th April 2005, 19:51
You say the dodge was pacing you, slow down to see exactly how slow he will go, then out accelerate him and cut him off...problem solved, or I am missing the big picture, which would not be unusual.

cantolina
18th April 2005, 19:59
You say the dodge was pacing you, slow down to see exactly how slow he will go, then out accelerate him and cut him off...problem solved, or I am missing the big picture, which would not be unusual.

I like an honest man... ;)

Now I have an accurate indication....here's my assessment:

First- Hostile cager. Refuses to allow traffic into the lane...
Second- Weather Roads are wet...

Unsafe conditions exists and have been identified

Possible solutions:

1. Double-up with the Goldwinger, and slow down traffic to allow the group to re-group and turn together

2. Back off, signalling to riders behind, and find a safer place to change lanes...this rider, in effect, becomes a lead rider, by proxy, and should consider him or herself in control of the remainder of the group, until the bikes re-group.

3. Catch up to the lead, and apprise him.

4. Pull a gun, throw marbles, eggs, what-have-you, in an attempt to further provoke the openly hostile cager, because after all, you're a bad-ass biker, and who does this guy think he's messin with?

Anyone else have possible solutions to offer in this scenario?

(BTW, I don't necessarily condone or agree with what even I'VE written, so go for it..)

OK, first addition...(other than my own additional choice)

5. slow down to see exactly how slow he will go, then out accelerate him and cut him off...problem solved

PlanB
18th April 2005, 20:35
I think if time permitted, I would've gotten the Dodge truck's license number...take the plate number and this scenario to the MSF instructor at Fairchild Air Force Base...they take this stuff very seriously, and I would bet the MSF instructor would take this "allegation" to the base commander, and besides the dependent wife ragging the Dodge driver, he'd have some brass that would have his ass! Besides the bad public relations the driver would have given the air force had there been an accident. the Secretary of Defense has established a goal of a 50% reduction rate in ground mishaps this year! Those base commanders have a big job ahead of them and I'm sure the commander would not tolerate incidences like you experienced with an air force member! Let the mofo walk for awhile, and maybe he'll realize the statement our parents always told us..."Driving is a privilege...not a right!" I know it's easy to say what I'd do since I wasn't there...I'm sure the rain and the situation didn't allow for that! I am glad to hear everything turned out ok, but just reading your post made me angry at that Dodge driver...I haven't mastered road rage completely yet...a .357 bullet to the Dodge's right front tire was a fleeting thought I had before I told myself, "No,No, Mike...mustn't do that anymore...it's the 21st Century now!"

While I was googling for some Air Force stats, I found this policy letter on motorcycle safety for the air force...I'd say between this forum and the MSF classes, we're doing a pretty good job out here trying to keep our members safe...all things considered!

http://afsafety.af.mil/AFSC/files/Motorcycle%20Safety_Each%20Rider%20a%20Mentor.pdf

GOTWA
18th April 2005, 20:54
You say the dodge was pacing you, slow down to see exactly how slow he will go, then out accelerate him and cut him off...problem solved, or I am missing the big picture, which would not be unusual.

Tried that sort of. When he slowed down with me I went ahead and gunned it. But with his acceleration and the shrinking gap between what would be his front bumper and the rear bumper of the GW, I chickened out. I wasn't sure he would brake or let up in time to keep his forward momentum from slamming into the back of me. Slowing down was actually only one or two car lengths before we were up against the cagers behind him. So not a whole lot of room. And with the wet road I didn't want to be making too hard of a cut.

A more experienced rider might have made it but like I said, I chickened out.

Planb, I was a Law Enforcement troop in the USAF and that thought did occur to me. Only it was about five blocks after we turned off. :p

PlanB
18th April 2005, 21:16
It might not be too late to let the MSF instructor or LE folks know about the incident...a letter or article in the base newspaper won't punish the culprit, but I'll bet a lot of airman would know who it was by the description of the truck...can't be too many of them on base...and as good as you write, I'll bet it would be a great way for the safety office to start out the motorcycle season by having a "lessons learned" article with a local incident to relate to! Guess I'd just like to see some kind of justice to the jerkwad in the truck! :D

I was going to kid around and say I'll bet it was a "blue" DD2220, but since we have some members here with blue ones, I can't! :)

GOTWA
18th April 2005, 21:21
It might not be too late to let the MSF instructor or LE folks know about the incident...a letter or article in the base newspaper won't punish the culprit, but I'll bet a lot of airman would know who it was by the description of the truck...can't be too many of them on base...and as good as you write, I'll bet it would be a great way for the safety office to start out the motorcycle season by having a "lessons learned" article with a local incident to relate to! Guess I'd just like to see some kind of justice to the jerkwad in the truck! :D

I was going to kid around and say I'll bet it was a "blue" DD2220, but since we have some members here with blue ones, I can't! :)

The 2219 was red but he looked a little old for an airman. Could be a reservist or Army (they sometimes don't follow the same color code) that was using the base privileges. Then again, my sexist ways are showing cuz it could be that he was the Dependent Husband and she was Active Duty.

Thanks for the compliment on the writing and I might just sent a nice letter.

cantolina
19th April 2005, 02:46
Bump

This one deserves it...I can't believe there are so few responses...

;)

motorrunning
19th April 2005, 03:03
I agree with planb, they might have previous history on this guy, and know precisely who he is. You could be helping another rider.

A long time ago I got pulled over for speeding by a state cop with an attitude. I stayed cool but decided to fight the ticket because of his behavior. I mentioned in court that he the state cop was disrespectful when he pulled me over. The court magistrate went off on him telling him he was tired of hearing complaints about his unprofessional behavior from motorcyclists. He dismissed the ticket!

Good Luck!

Broncodog
19th April 2005, 03:08
2. Back off, signalling to riders behind, and find a safer place to change lanes...this rider, in effect, becomes a lead rider, by proxy, and should consider him or herself in control of the remainder of the group, until the bikes re-group.

When riding in group the signal to change lanes gets passed back and the end rider changes lanes to block traffic and the group ahead moves over. In this split group condition with the ahole in the middle not willing to let the rest in, you should change lanes behind him and catch the group at the turn or further up. Why the GW did not slow to let you guys in is probably because he had no real group riding experience. He becomes the rear guard in that instance and should have let you guys in.

af_sting
19th April 2005, 04:13
4. Pull a gun, throw marbles, eggs, what-have-you, in an attempt to further provoke the openly hostile cager, because after all, you're a bad-ass biker, and who does this guy think he's messin with?


I guess I prefer #4. Too bad you didn't meet this yo-yo at a light. No matter how big his truck is, he'd have to start getting nervous if a bunch of bikers circled around him. Especially if you all started twirling chains and baseball bats…..maybe I've seen too many movies!?! :rolleyes:

In all seriousness, I'm aggressive, but I also consider myself very considerate. I'm one of those guys that if you put on your turn signal, I'm letting you in. On the other hand, if you think your nudging your nose in front of me without a signal, we're trading paint. The guy in the truck was the root of the problem, but the guy on the GW needs to have surgery to remove his head from his rectum. Does he have no situational awareness? I've only ridden in a group a few times, but I've noted you can tell what people are doing just by watching their body language. If you're in a group and you can tell what another rider wants to do, why not help him out? In this case, the guy didn't even need to be observant...hell, you told him what you wanted. At that point, he became the problem.

Great post.

-Sting

cantolina
19th April 2005, 04:19
I guess I prefer #4. Too bad you didn't meet this yo-yo at a light. No matter how big his truck is, he'd have to start getting nervous if a bunch of bikers circled around him. Especially if you all started twirling chains and baseball bats…..maybe I've seen too many movies!?! :rolleyes:

In all seriousness, I'm aggressive, but I also consider myself very considerate. I'm one of those guys that if you put on your turn signal, I'm letting you in. On the other hand, if you think your nudging your nose in front of me without a signal, we're trading paint. The guy in the truck was the root of the problem, but the guy on the GW needs to have surgery to remove his head from his rectum. Does he have no situational awareness? I've only ridden in a group a few times, but I've noted you can tell what people are doing just by watching their body language. If you're in a group and you can tell what another rider wants to do, why not help him out? In this case, the guy didn't even need to be observant...hell, you told him what you wanted. At that point, he became the problem.

Great post.

-Sting

Completely agreed, but since we've already decided that no one is responsible for our safety more than we, ourselves, the question DIDN'T really address the GW rider (yet), but was more centered on what GOTWA could have done differently (if anything) to not only ensure HIS safety, but the safety of his fellow riders (behind), especially not knowing the experience level of the other riders...(and we DO look out for one another, don't we?) ;)

That fact is, we all choose to inherit the amount of risk we are comfortable with...

There IS no right or wrong answer here....we decide that for ourselves each and every day we ride... :)

blueglide88
19th April 2005, 04:36
First off, If I flip off the a-hole driving the pickup and ask him if he wants to pull over. If he does, I get off my bike and egg him on. When he comes over to me, I pepper spray him in the face and watch him jump like a jackrabbit with a hotfoot. If he does not pull over, I speed up to the GW rider and ask him to move over. If he refuses, I have two options depending on what I'm riding. If I'm on my bagger, I just move over into his lane. He will move because he's "scared"...lol. If I'm on the Sporty, I speed up to just in front of him, and cut right in. Later, after we all get together, I pepper spray him and watch him jump like a cager that I saw acting like a jackrabbit back down the road a bit. And no, I will not draw up my ideas in paint or post a jpg of my scenario.

XLFREAK
19th April 2005, 04:38
Like Broncodog said, when I've been in group rides, people in the front will bring their bike to a stop in front of traffic (at a light) in case it changes to make sure the group makes it through. They will also change lanes early to let the pack get in ahead of them. Another thing is to block traffic from approaching if the lanes are merging to prevent them from entering our pack. These riders aren't necessarily "designated" to do this, they seem to take it upon themselves. I have only been on about a half-dozen group rides, but you can really admire these guys that seem to have their $hit together in this way. It takes a lot of stress out of the situation. After they do this, they stay at the back, or race ahead, ready to do it again. The one thing I see different when I ride with my HOG chapter is just before we pull out, the road captain will hand out copies of the directions and go over the route verbally incase we separate. This way there isn't any pressure to stay together by racing through a light or tring to make a turn a little too late.

XLFREAK
19th April 2005, 05:01
LMFAO at Blueglide88's post. :clap

XLFREAK
19th April 2005, 05:10
The only group ride I've been on was the Hunley Memorial Ride at the 2nd Heritage Rally here in Charleston. The sound of 3,000 bikes firing up at once was awe inspiring, but the actual ride was a different matter. What a freakin' mess that was - even with motor officers blocking traffic to get all 3,000 bikes out of the lot. Didn't take long for the "go real fast....whoa up even faster" effect to kick in. At one point on the interstate portion of the ride several riders had to whip into another lane to avoid crashing into the bikes in the middle of the "snake." Then it was balls to the wall again to catch up. Sheesh!

As a result of that horrendous experience I have avoided joining the local HOG chapter and the local LEO MC. Who needs the commitment and the hassles? Not me. I prefer to go my own way or ride with a couple of good friends.

I do plan on trying the toy run this holiday season just to see how that goes. Maybe it will change my thinking about riding in large groups. Maybe not.

dwardy
19th April 2005, 05:43
No matter how big his truck is, he'd have to start getting nervous if a bunch of bikers circled around him. Especially if you all started twirling chains and baseball bats…


...or maybe dancin' and snappin' yer fingers. :D


doo duh duh duhhhhhh......sharks!!!...duh duh doo dooooo...jets!!!

cantolina
19th April 2005, 14:49
First off, If I flip off the a-hole driving the pickup and ask him if he wants to pull over. If he does, I get off my bike and egg him on. When he comes over to me, I pepper spray him in the face and watch him jump like a jackrabbit with a hotfoot. If he does not pull over, I speed up to the GW rider and ask him to move over. If he refuses, I have two options depending on what I'm riding. If I'm on my bagger, I just move over into his lane. He will move because he's "scared"...lol. If I'm on the Sporty, I speed up to just in front of him, and cut right in. Later, after we all get together, I pepper spray him and watch him jump like a cager that I saw acting like a jackrabbit back down the road a bit. And no, I will not draw up my ideas in paint or post a jpg of my scenario.

That's too bad.....that "jackrabbit" thing makes me laugh just thinking about it....but if you had a jpeg....WOW

cantolina
19th April 2005, 18:45
Well, I honestly thought we would hear from more folks on this, but in my mind, the exercise has run its course.....

Personally, I don't have enough group riding experience to truly have any wisdom here...that's what I was baitin' you folks for ;)

In the end, I now know how I will handle a situation like this....

And GOTWA, it takes a big man to look at himself and come to the conclusions you did..

Personally, I'm proud to know ya.....

Thanx for all the replies!

DM-SC
19th April 2005, 20:45
Personally, I don't have enough group riding experience to truly have any wisdom here...that's what I was baitin' you folks for ;)

In the end, I now know how I will handle a situation like this....

And GOTWA, it takes a big man to look at himself and come to the conclusions you did..

Personally, I'm proud to know ya.....

Thanx for all the replies!

I'm in the same boat...not enough experience riding in a motorcycle group.

I have tons of miles riding in groups with BICYCLISTS. I can answer questions about that all day long! It's not the same...we ride with about 6 inches of room between our front tire and the person in front of us's rear tire. Of course, we're only doing 20-30 mph so, it's really no big deal! :laugh

wabiker
19th April 2005, 20:53
..Hmmm, The terms "road guard" comes to mind and "road captn"

cantolina
19th April 2005, 20:56
..Hmmm, The terms "road guard" comes to mind and "road captn"


Now you brought up a whole other can o' worms!!!!

What WAS the guard doing????

doc
19th April 2005, 21:08
Looking at Gotwa's original post, I would assume that they did not have a road captain or road guard. It seems like they were pretty much a throw-together group. I rode on a group "toy" run one time and it was setup so that all riders were to maintain the group. The road captain set the route and there were four road guards to block traffic. Two would stop and the other two would go to the next intersection. Kinda playing leap frog. Of course, in my town of 19,000, when you have 250+ bikes riding together, people tend to stop and watch and not get in the way.

Y2K
19th April 2005, 22:09
Back in '93 I followed a couple hundred H/A off the freeway and into downtown Sturgis.The street going downtown was three lanes(center turn lane) and a 35mph zone.Traffic was creep'n along stop and go with a mix of bikes and cars till the H/A hit the street.At that point the center lane became an express way to downtown cruising about 55mph with all intersections blocked by road gaurds.
Love 'em or hate 'em they are presence that's for sure.
I followed them right into town :D no waiting ! :smoke

GOTWA
19th April 2005, 22:20
Thanks Chuck, I'm in good company for sure!

First I want to say I gave this quite a little thought last night. While I still think the GW should have moved over, I was wrong to get pissed at him. Wrong because I don't know the guy or his experience or what was going through his head. By then we were all soaked and damned cold. The roads were nasty. And the "group" was a cluster :censor at best. Toss in an agry cager scraping paint of his ass (and with one of the few vehicles on the road bigger than a GW :p ) and I can see were the guy might have just plain had his hands full focusing on going straight and not hitting anything. Maybe he was a "stick up the ass" rider or maybe he was just scared.

Like Doc said, it was truly a throw together group. No briefing, no established duties, no designated responsibilites. The leader headed out and we all just kind of gaggled in behind him. And almost immediately we got into the catepilar thing ForensicSgt mentioned. And from there it just degraded.

Now I know why whenever "group ride" is mentioned my brother in law grumbles under his breath. He's done quite a few runs but always when he can break off and just motor along alone or with a couple close companions. Like the way we started out the ride.

I think what BroncoDog talked about was an excellent method to employ for group riding.

If you think about what Y2K said about the 1%'s it is absolutely true. The bottom line is, they look after the group. Each individual acting as a part of the group for the sake of the group. In essence, isn't that what an "organized and structured" group ride is about? Granted, 30, 40, or more motorcycles cruising under longhaired guys flying colors might get a little more respect but you know damn well they encounter the dumbasses too.

I guess for me, the biggest lesson I've pulled out of this discussion has nothing to with the road. It has to do with the parking lot. Organization and structure before the engines turn over. No different than checking your oil. Preventative Maintenance.

So in the future, if I do get wrapped up in a group ride, if I don't feel comfortable before we head out, I'm not heading out. Either that or I am dropping way back and riding my own ride, which defeats the purpose. But I'd rather come off looking like an ass just sitting on my bike as they ride off than put myself out there in a potentially dangerous situation. We take enough risks and adding to them 10 fold just to not hurt people's feelings simply isn't worth it.

Thanks to everyone who replied and especially to Chuck for taking what was at first a rant and turning it into a useful learning tool.

Please continue to toss in thoughts, suggestions, experiences, and ideas.
:tour

midnitewolf
19th April 2005, 23:33
Yep bronco dog is correct , when you ride with a large group
the road captain signals the lane change but the tail gunner makes
the lane change first to secure the lane and the group changes the lane from back to the front.

socal1200c
20th April 2005, 18:01
Yep bronco dog is correct , when you ride with a large group
the road captain signals the lane change but the tail gunner makes
the lane change first to secure the lane and the group changes the lane from back to the front.

Absolutley correct for a large group. A few riders together say less than 10 and it's not that critical since you really don't take up that much room anyway.

Sounds like it was just an inexperienced group. The sweep should have been able to make the room for you ALL to get in by getting in first and then having the group fall into line.

wabiker
20th April 2005, 18:13
solution:
Dont ride in a strange pack
or
Be an empowered, proactive rider and take it upon yourself to ensure everybody is safe (whether or not "they" realise it) ie "road guard" etc etc.

jwb47
20th April 2005, 19:03
gotwa: So in the future, if I do get wrapped up in a group ride, if I don't feel comfortable before we head out, I'm not heading out. Either that or I am dropping way back and riding my own ride, which defeats the purpose. But I'd rather come off looking like an ass just sitting on my bike as they ride off than put myself out there in a potentially dangerous situation. We take enough risks and adding to them 10 fold just to not hurt people's feelings simply isn't worth it.
:clap

brother I dont think any better advise could be gave in reguards to motorcycling in general or group rides than what you just said.

Wardog
20th April 2005, 19:13
A compromise would be to ride in the back and if you are uncomfortable or do not like the way the others ride in a group then you can just drop out. Group riding is something that is difficult to do.

kjbsporty
20th April 2005, 20:05
There has been a lot of good information here. It sounds like a lack of group experience and no planning caused the problem. I would have tried to slow down even more and see if another cage would have let you in. Getting his license plate and the cage behind him (as a witness) and then report it to the police. A 5,000 lb. truck against a 500 lb. sportster is not fun. I am glad you got through it safely.

I was a road captain with a local chapter. When we planned rides we had some guidelines we followed. Some of the events were open so you didn't know who would show up.

The most important thing in a group ride is safety. The GW rider may not have felt safe trying to back the truck up by slowing down. Even though you could have if he let you in. The best way to ensure safety is planning. On all the rides we did there was a pre ride. This allows you and a sweep to be familiar with the route and find potential dangers and correct or allow for them. Then have a meeting before leaving and talk about the route (including turn by turn directions), hand signals, and any difficult areas on the route. The number of the group should be 15-20 bikes if possible. It is better to split into two groups. A leader for each group will make it easier to get through intersections and lights. In Wisconsin it is illegal to block intersections unless assisting police on a ride. We did have a few rides that were police escort and they took care of blocking traffic.

I have had a lot of fun riding with groups. It just depends on how it is set up.

I am not saying this is what will work in all situations just trying to help with what I have done.

bud095
20th April 2005, 20:24
Back in '93 I followed a couple hundred H/A off the freeway and into downtown Sturgis.The street going downtown was three lanes(center turn lane) and a 35mph zone.Traffic was creep'n along stop and go with a mix of bikes and cars till the H/A hit the street.At that point the center lane became an express way to downtown cruising about 55mph with all intersections blocked by road gaurds.
Love 'em or hate 'em they are presence that's for sure.
I followed them right into town :D no waiting ! :smoke
i love it when that happens when i remember those days !:smoke

KC_Sporty_Gal
8th August 2005, 04:14
I have no group riding experience. The local HOG chapter here in KC does a new rider orientation every month with the ride captains. I plan on trying to make the one this month.

My first thought though about the GW not moving over was about his group riding skill level. Maybe he was uncomfortable doing anything other than the standard riding formation.

I do want to say that your diagram of the ride was very nice though :) It made understanding what was going on very easy.

MNewYork
8th August 2005, 05:08
Don't like big groups at all - 3 or 4 max suits me fine and even then it can get a little creepy.

In this situation I would have taken the passive approach and simply ate the extra miles it would take to hit the next exit and double back. Bad road conditions and dickwad in a truck scream a real warning to me. As pissed off as I would have been for the inconvenience, I wouldn't risk my neck over some extra time/miles. I would get the trucks plate number and see if I could cause him some grief. I would also ask the road captain what he would have done (now that he had plenty of time to sit by the side of the road and wait for me).

FSZEKE302
8th August 2005, 06:05
So far I've made one large group ride. Most uncoordinated ride i could have imagined. Left late. No idea where we were stopping to rest so we could gather if separated. seemed like lead riders were trying to shake the pack on twisty roads. Several riders got separated and turned wrong. Then to top it off, most of pack stopped in 102 deg heat for a couple of beers, "waiting for rest of group to catch up" just before crossing a Twisty mountain pass. Made several long rides since. Alone, thank you.

oldjarhead
30th August 2008, 18:14
I tried that and he (Dodge) slow down with me and that blocked me out because of the cages behind him. Then when I sped up, he did too. That's why I wanted to get over next to GW Guy. Some of the cagers in the back let a couple bikes over but a few of us were hung out. And we had traffic starting to come up behind us so dropping way back was not a very good option any more.
.

If you had got behind the Dodge, he would have been locking up the breaks on you. Predictable reaction considering what he was already doing.

bearsfan
30th August 2008, 19:21
I have tons of miles riding in groups with BICYCLISTS. I can answer questions about that all day long! It's not the same...we ride with about 6 inches of room between our front tire and the person in front of us's rear tire. Of course, we're only doing 20-30 mph so, it's really no big deal! :laugh

Until someone goes down...;)

garandman
19th April 2011, 15:20
that is exaxctly why I am the grouchy old bastard who wont join the local riding group. I prefer to ride by myself or with a couple of close friends . I have been asked time and again to join the club or go on group rides but I just cant bring myself to put my personal saftey in some strangers hands.This.

As a group goes beyond 10 riders, the odds that at least one of them will do something to endanger the rest of you goes to 100%. Especially on a weekend.

And a lot of cage drivers don't like groups. And perhaps because Dodge had zero money down loans for years, Ram drivers seem to be a special breed.

Evil_Seven
20th April 2011, 02:20
"Nearly everyone who has ridden a bike for any length of time will agree. The highways are crowded with people who drive as if their sole purpose in getting behind the wheel is to avenge every wrong ever done to them by man, beast, or fate. The only thing that keeps them in line is their own fear of death, jail, and lawsuits, which are much less likely if they can find a motorcycle to challenge, instead of another two-thousand pound car or a concrete abutment. … Because the only thing that can alter their careless, ingrained driving habits is a threat of punishment, either legal or physical, and there is nothing about a motorcycle to threaten any man in a car."

- Hunter S. Thompson -

chardhin
20th April 2011, 02:33
that is exaxctly why I am the grouchy old bastard who wont join the local riding group. I prefer to ride by myself or with a couple of close friends . I have been asked time and again to join the club or go on group rides but I just cant bring myself to put my personal saftey in some strangers hands.

ditto that, unless I am with a group of guys I know and have riden with often and know how they react to conditions, I ride by myself. although the guy in the dodge sounded like a tool and needs to get his head realigned, lucky for him you all were'nt a M.C..

Fat Tony
20th April 2011, 04:33
Sounds like the GW guy should not be in the sweep position because he sure didn't do his job.

Stocker
7th February 2013, 21:40
Maybe the dude in the truck had his ass whipped by a biker or two at one time. And, don't ride with Goldwings and Yammies. Them folks are dangerous. I just had to drag this thread up again.:clap

jammantoo
13th June 2014, 07:32
personally, those gold wing riders are some of the best on the road, through the goldwing club they get cheap rates on MSF advanced rider courses, you always see a bunch of them at the courses because they get a discount on their insurance for going every 3 years, they are well schooled in what is dangerous and what is not.
I would give him a break, last thing you want on wet roads with a group that is not used to riding with each other is someone in the middle of the pack getting out of formation and causeing a regroup right before a turn, the safest thing in that situation was for those who were in the wrong lane to go past the turn and then turn around and come back.
It may not be popular, but seeing as they were trying to enter mid pack, in the wet, with a turn coming up, I think the guy made a good decision not yo let them in. It would have bunched up the group and cut down on everyones breaking distance.

brianbbs67
13th June 2014, 08:46
Mosey put it best, Zombie thread!:D