Starter Turning Backwards?????

[asasial]

is there a rational reason for a starter to turn backwards?
i'm working on a yamaha ttr230 guy bought it new the starter stopped working correctly. starter motor would/will turn just makes a racket and does not turn engine upon troubleshooting the starter clutch i found that the starter motor is turning backwards. he says it's the same starter it's not been changed. the wiring is correct i don't get it makes no since to me.

[Baphomet]

Generally speaking a DC motor will operate in reverse if the current is reversed, polarity switched. That's all I can think of.

[LuxBlue]

Generally speaking a DC motor will operate in reverse if the current is reversed, polarity switched. That's all I can think of.

A PM (permanant magnet) DC motor will reverse if you swap the polarity of the armature leads. A DC motor with a field will reverse if you swap polarity of either (but not both) the field or the armature leads.

[freeidaho]

It is a long shot, but it could be the battery is installed backward.

kr

[asasial]

it's wired correctly - on the batt grounded to the engine + going to the start relay then to the starter motor. i disconnected everything else just a minute ago and hooked the starter only up reversed and it cranked the engine. + going to the cases - going to the starter terminal. i've looked at the wiring diagram it's not a positive ground system.

[asasial]

is it possible that he has had the starter apart and reversed the polarity on it?
he never mentioned having it apart and i can't get ahold of him at the minute but it's a 1 wire starter don't know if that is even possible.

[gdixon61]

Meter the Battery and make sure it's not The Batt that is the problem

[asasial]

i have. it's the battery outta my honda his batt was dead.

[asasial]

i removed the starter and pulled it apart. it's clearly been disassembled before but it appears to be together correctly. the way the leads go to the brushes it would be hard to do and very obvious if they were reversed.

[asasial]

bench testing it, it still spins backwards. the starter clutch is a gear with a one way style bearing in it that in order to engage with the rotor on the crank needs to turn counter clockwise. the starter is spinning it clockwise. counter-clockwise rotation is correct as per the indicator on the rotor and the manual.

[a45junkie]

put a pic up here

[asasial]

the starter is removed it goes in the hole to the left of the idler gear.
http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff41/asasial/100_2276.jpg
http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff41/asasial/100_2273.jpg
http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff41/asasial/100_2280.jpg
http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff41/asasial/100_2281.jpg

[freeidaho]

Well it doesn't look like the brushes and therefore the armature can be connected backward. How about the field? Or is it a permanent magnet motor?

kr

[asasial]

PM there are two magnets fixed in the housing. there is no line up pins or anything of that nature to orient the parts together. could the polarity of the magnets affect the rotation? ie if the housing is removed and flipped. i'm pretty sure i flipped it when i put it back together but it still rotated the same (incorrect) direction.

[freeidaho]

Nope, not much you can do wrong with the permanent magnets.

Is there any chance the starter clutch has been removed and installed the wrong way. That would make it work backward, and might make it look like the motor is turning the wrong way.

Just a guess,
kr

[asasial]

the starter turns the gear in the second pic. the starter clutch (sprag style clutch) will only engage one way which would be in a counter clockwise rotation and is located in the back of the rotor. the starter is spinning it in a clockwise rotation. and the manual and rotor shows ccw is the rotation of the engine.
all the directions of rotation is as viewing it in the pics.

[asasial]

also the design of the starter clutch would not allow for the operation to be reversed.

[gdixon61]

back to a messed up Batt, is the Pos post actually Pos and the neg actually Neg? I have seen Batteries get screwed up like that. Granted they aren't long for the world but I have seen it.

[freeidaho]

Okay, let me try again. If the sprague clutch were taken off and turned over and put back on again. Its direction of operation would be reversed. Then a motor turning the correct direction would not turn the motor over.

Since we don't know how much was taken apart and reassembled, I just thought this might be a possibility. If not, sorry for wasting your time.
If that isn't it, then I am stumped for now.

kr
PS: I spent 5 years turning wrenches in a bike shop putting my self through an engineering masters program. During that time, lots of things were put together wrong, eventhough the customer "never touched it," so I never believe that whenever I hear it.

[gdixon61]

lmao, been there myself ( 30 plus yrs wrenching ) ! Pssst and when confronted it turns out it wasn't the Dad but it must have been the son :)

[asasial]

the battery is fine
http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff41/asasial/100_2290.jpg

[gdixon61]

well when all is eliminated it has to be what hasn't been looked at, try flipping the sprague clutch.
the leads inside the starter are pretty much not possible to screw up, Batt is good so that leaves the sprague

[asasial]

if the clutch was removed and installed the other direction it would be turning the engine in the opposite direction than what the engine rotates while it is running. the design of the clutch has counter sunk heads on it and it would be obvious if it was on backwards. bolt heads would be sticking way out and hitting the gear the starter turns.

your not wasting my time i appreciate the input.

[gdixon61]

time for a new starter, some how the polarity reversed.

[asasial]

after seeing the starter has been removed before i'm starting to think either him not telling me, forgot, or someone else changed the starter out for one made like it that was laying around but for a different engine that rotates the in the oposite direction (starter rotation)

[a45junkie]

I think you are correct.

[a45junkie]

just for shits an giggles turn the housing a half turn an put it back together. ?

[asasial]

just for shits an giggles turn the housing a half turn an put it back together. ?

will do... what's it gonna hurt... i'll let ya know.

[asasial]

LMAO it worked flipped over the housing the magnets were in and now it's turning the proper direction. even installed it to make sure it would turn over the engine and sure enough it did.

[asasial]

this guy has had this bike sitting for 3 years cuz of this problem didn't cost a dime to fix. it's still making a little noise but i would say it's been from him going out every now and then messing with it and cranking the piss outta it. but there's no oil in there right now so gonna put it all together and put oil in then see what happens.

[a45junkie]

i love it. same effect as switching the brushes.

[asasial]

now we know that switching around the magnets can cause reverse rotation.
i've been able to get the bike to start for a few seconds looks like i'm going be playin with the carb. but the squeel was actually the armature bushing in the back of the housing. it's pretty wore out as well is the brushes so he'll probably be buying a starter soon but he just wants it running so that's what i'll do and tell him what i found.
i greased the armature bushing so it sounds ok right now but needs replaced.

don't think i'll complain about H-D parts being so high as much... the brushes alone for the starter are $55 and $457 for a starter. and that's not oem parts that's from bikebandit.com

[a45junkie]

sittin that long the carb has to be all crapped up. lol wheeee! that starter may work like that for years.

[asasial]

it may. he did drain the tank but doesn't look like he drained the carb. i had a time getting the carb apart, i'd say he's gonna need a kit. float pin was a pain to get out. float needle was all gummed up both jets were completely blocked, took a few mins to get the intermediate jet out for the varnish. i'm out of spray carb cleaner and don't feel like messin with dipping the carb tonight so i'll get to all that tomorrow.

thanks everyone for the help.

[Wooley]

It is a long shot, but it could be the battery is installed backward.

kr

Ummmm, What!