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-   -   Sportster Crankcase Pressure / Engine Breathing / Wetsumping and Mods (http://xlforum.net/forums/showthread.php?t=2073932)

Hippysmack 3rd August 2019 04:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by dieselvette (Post 5767305)
When I say "tuning" I guess is confusing. It's not about pressure or flow from the breathers, but the fact that it's hot air with no oxygen, and possibly oil vapors. That results in a different mixture than with 100% fresh air. At idle this makes up a percentage of the total intake air. But, if the bike is tuned to idle on this shi++y air then OK you don't know the difference until the vents are moved (or oil cap removed).
The more you open the throttle, the less impact this stale air will have on your mixture as it becomes a smaller % of total air. (But, it still has an impact on performance).

Ok.
I understand what you're saying now.
I just haven't pieced it together in my head yet.
I'll play around with it some more tomorrow.
I want to see all I can see before I swap to vent lines.

dieselvette 3rd August 2019 05:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hippysmack (Post 5767310)
Ok.
I understand what you're saying now.
I just haven't pieced it together in my head yet.
I'll play around with it some more tomorrow.
I want to see all I can see before I swap to vent lines.

Don't spend too much time on it - the more I think about it, the more I think I'm right haha.

Remember the vent gasses effect on performance has already been proven on Aaron's dyno on no uncertain terms. You're just proving that it affects the burn at idle, too. :)

Hippysmack 3rd August 2019 06:16

:laugh:laugh

Progress in any form is still the same.
It idles better now. Fired it up after blowing it out and dropping the float a little.
Blew out some gas but everything went fine.
I'll tune it tomorrow and go for ride and recheck what where I've been.

bustert 3rd August 2019 07:46

so now you grasp the concept on lazy flow and fuel mix.
finally got a chance to work on the c/c adapter and then father called, seems like someone spiked his computer so another trip out of town. eventually will get it done. i have to use a 6" 5/8-18 bolt to get past my exh and bore a hole through the center, after that, should be smooth sailing.

60Gunner 3rd August 2019 08:22

Not that auto PCVs are frowned on. They don't close fast enough. A car has a lot less crankcase pressure with pistons going up and down at the same time.They aren't designed for a v-twin with both pistons going up and down at nearly the same time.
As a result, they puke too much oil most of the time and don't last very long.
I would use that $200 reed valve I posted a link to.

I don't get a drop of oil with the krankvent in the heads. The failed stock ones are still in place tho. Need a better way to baffle the oil in the cam chest.

dieselvette 3rd August 2019 13:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by bustert (Post 5767327)
so now you grasp the concept on lazy flow and fuel mix.

Ha ha I guess so. I thought you were trying to say it affects actual airflow, but you mean its the crappy air not the flow directly.

When it first occurred to me I was thinking " nah, couldn't be that big of difference" but easy enough to try. But tuning is actually a precarious situation and a little bit of oxygen goes a long way.

But now Hippy is *actually* playing around with the carb so we'll see what becomes of his further testing.

Meanwhile, I've got a long way to go before I can be of any help in these ventures. The indy called yesterday at 530 saying my parts are finally ready, of course I was working the "marathon" shift last night at work because we're leaving for a weeks vacation (bikes not included) this morning, it will be next Saturday evening before I have a chance to dig into the bike project. And that won't be a quick-a-minute assembly there will be lots og fine tuning and double-checking involved with all the changes.

dieselvette 3rd August 2019 13:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by 60Gunner (Post 5767329)
I don't get a drop of oil with the krankvent in the heads. The failed stock ones are still in place tho. Need a better way to baffle the oil in the cam chest.

Thinking back to 2004 when they came out with the new breather design, and all the trouble friends were going through trying to manage oil mess with older buells, I remember being happy to learn of the improvement. That was my motivation for NOT taking it out of the air cleaner (no oil coming out, it shouldn't matter). I wasn't ignorant of the HP difference, I just wanted to keep it simple.

And looking at my intake etc I'm not convinced that venting into AC with the 04 breathers leads to any significant carbon buildup in the combustion chamber. This would be hard to prove with other factors at play, and it takes a lot more miles than most people put on their bikes in its lifetime. But it's a moot point sort of, because it's still more sensible to get it out of there if you're looking for performance or fuel economy.

60Gunner 3rd August 2019 15:16

The loss of performance and carbon buildup has been well documented and makes perfectly good sense if you think about it. I'm sure it doesn't do the carb any good either. It's there because it's nasty enough they don't want you breathing it. Why would you want your motor breathing it?

Hippysmack 3rd August 2019 16:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by bustert (Post 5767327)
so now you grasp the concept on lazy flow and fuel mix.

....Yoda....;)

edit:
Well I'm dead in the water at the moment.
I started out this morning with the only window of decent weather then.
Got to end of the driveway, and started pissin' gas.
Apparently I got the O-ring bowl gasket in a bind and it split on me.
CV Performance is not taking orders right now since they're at the Sturgis rally (what the note on their site says anyway).
Big Swamp said the only HD that had it in stock was in Texas and California.
So I ordered 3 from them.

The rubber was stretched some so I froze it, installed it with a smaller amount hanging over and used a tiny screw driver to nudge it under.
Apparently I nudged it too much inwards.
http://xlforum.net/forums/picture.ph...&pictureid=360

http://xlforum.net/forums/picture.ph...&pictureid=359

I wanted to replace the plastic 90 degree inlet anyway so I'll have time to do that.

60Gunner 3rd August 2019 20:51

See you shoulda bought Twinshot I sold and you'd have a spare bowl for just such an occasion. :p
I was giving it away here actually complete with carb and just about every pilot and main jet you could ever need for $50!
Sold them separate on eBay for $220 total.

Just got back from a good, hard 70 mile run. Not a drop of oil out the breather hose, not a single bubble in the tank, and an oil temp of 197 checked within 30 seconds of shutdown. Gotta pull my seat to get the dipstick out.

Hippysmack 3rd August 2019 21:39

:laugh
I've gotten 4 or 5 installs with this rubber so I got my money's worth out of it.
I was going to use my spare one this time but it turned out to be the wrong one. :(
It's all part of it.
Besides, I've been putting off replacing the inlet so I could ride.

dieselvette 3rd August 2019 23:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hippysmack (Post 5767415)
Big Swamp said the only HD that had it in stock was in Texas and California.
So I ordered 3 from them.

Yeah it's pretty surprising the lack of carb parts in stock around the country. I needed an idle mixture screw, and was even willing to buy a whole carb of any kind new or used, and do you think I could find one?

Hippysmack 4th August 2019 00:08

Top it all off, the guy at HD recommended I go see Doc. (well known in these parts).
But he hates Sportsters.
I didn't want deal with him.
The guy said I'll end up with the only 2 spares in the Southeast!
That didn't make me feel so good either.

bustert 4th August 2019 21:51

here are the slack tube readings at not load, will stand to reason that pressure will be diff with load due to higher fuel burn and pressures
1000 rpm

https://i.imgur.com/CJdK1fT.jpg

2000 rpm

https://i.imgur.com/2otJXgr.jpg

3000 rpm

https://i.imgur.com/1HR72N9.jpg

4000 rpm

https://i.imgur.com/3QPZacD.jpg

5000 rpm

https://i.imgur.com/bf50kRr.jpg

6000 rpm

https://i.imgur.com/1wSc033.jpg

notice that there is a transition to a positive pressure above the 5k mark, not a surprise.
we could speculate anything from over-running vent capacity to time factors. the numbers are subjective to ambient to elevation.
however, we could use it as a tool to determine engine wear like they do on a diesel engine. all-in-all operated as hd intended within the intended most used rpm range
you were right, i expected to see lower numbers.
this would be inches of water and you can convert to psig but remember, we have to add both sides so a 15 on one side with a 15 on the other would be 30".

Hippysmack 4th August 2019 23:05

Holy Smokes!!
That's pretty much how my truck reacts.
bustert, can you post pics of your rig and fittings?
Where do I get the slack tube?

edit:
Found some cheap used ones on Ebay.
Any issues with a used one?

dieselvette 5th August 2019 01:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by bustert (Post 5767677)
here are the slack tube readings at not load, will stand to reason that pressure will be diff with load due to higher fuel burn and pressures
notice that there is a transition to a positive pressure above the 5k mark, not a surprise.
we could speculate anything from over-running vent capacity to time factors. the numbers are subjective to ambient to elevation.
however, we could use it as a tool to determine engine wear like they do on a diesel engine. all-in-all operated as hd intended within the intended most used rpm range
you were right, i expected to see lower numbers.
this would be inches of water and you can convert to psig but remember, we have to add both sides so a 15 on one side with a 15 on the other would be 30".

Perfect! That's exactly what I intended to do once I get mine together - didn't bother suggesting because it seemed to complicated to explain - but actually not that hard to set up was it?

Keep in mind with the readings - obviously the overall flow is an accurate reading - but by adding the length of tubing to get to the flowmeter etc, it changes the dynamics of the umbrella valve etc - I'm just saying it's not a good method for testing your breather setup, but a great method for seeing what the flows and pressures are as long as you keep in mind it tests your engine and not your breathers.

Hippysmack 5th August 2019 02:01

I agree there will many variables between our engines, locations and rig / setup.
But it's just like using a caliper for measuring.
As long as you measure every piece with the same one, it doesn't matter if yours doesn't match mine.
The slack tube readings will be relevant to that certain engine with that certain rig.
It can go in the tool box for analysis at any time.

bustert 5th August 2019 03:14

actually, you can make your own slack tube with plastic tubing and a tape measure. the one i used is a dwyers unit.
what is surprising is how stable the reading is. this being the case, a regular vac tester gauge could be used while riding, that way, load factor could be observed. if one could set up a camera on the gauge and then run the machine through the paces, a lot of info is available.
now all said and done, my machine has altered breather, altered cam timing and andrews cams n4's.
however, this is all top side so what effects does it hold for under the piston???? since the reading is from the timing plug, the breathers were fully functional.
the only issue was needing a needle valve to start off with, my first slack gauge was too small so it would have sucked the water into the flywheel compartment but the larger tube seemed to handle it in stride.

Hippysmack 5th August 2019 04:59

I haven't tried a vac gauge on the breathers.
I have tried it on the carb but it was very erratic as I assumed it would be at the timing plug.
I may try it though.

Shouldn't the liquid damper the hammer some?
I'd have to go back thru, but I assume you're using a bolt with a hole tapped in it with a 3/8" hose barb?
It looks like 2 fittings on top of the Dwyers unit, one in, one to atmosphere?

DIY slack tube (home use):
One long hose attached to the barb, length and looped at the bottom?
Apparatus attached to a piece of plywood with the line looped around a wooden ruler?

Why does the Dwyer only take green colored liquid?
Any special viscosity?

What needle valve and what learning curve to keep the liquid from surging back?
Picks of your fittings?
Restrictions needed?

Hippysmack 5th August 2019 05:09

Tomcatt, 60Gunner,
Is this a decent representation of the Hayden breather?
I'm assuming the spacer is under the umbrella as shown?
http://sportsterpedia.com/lib/exe/fe...hippysmack.jpg

60Gunner 5th August 2019 05:16

Yep. That's pretty much it. The umbrella does rest on very edge even with the spacer in tact tho.

Hippysmack 5th August 2019 05:54

Thanks.
I dropped the umbrella down.
I just want to present an understanding of how it works.


edit:
I created a sub doc under Aftermarket Breathers on the main CC pressure page for the Hayden valve.
"Dissecting the Hayden KVP38 Crankcase Breather Valve"
http://sportsterpedia.com/doku.php/t...ref:engmech04a

Also I've included bustert's testing on the main page.
http://sportsterpedia.com/doku.php/t...essure_testing

dieselvette 5th August 2019 06:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by bustert (Post 5767722)
so it would have sucked the water into the flywheel compartment but the larger tube seemed to handle it in stride.

I was thinking of using oil, then if it gets sucked in no worries.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hippysmack (Post 5767739)
Shouldn't the liquid damper the hammer some?

Liquid doesn't, but air does. So how about use oil and put a valve right at the connection, tube uphill from there. Fill tube with oil and see which way it goes when you open the valve.

dieselvette 5th August 2019 06:40

Actually if we could get 60Gunner to do my proposed test, known bad breathers vs good breathers, maybe we find out it's an applicable straightforward test.

If you don't have a timing plug fitting, tee into the tank vent line?

Hippysmack 5th August 2019 06:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by dieselvette (Post 5767750)

If you don't have a timing plug fitting, tee into the tank vent line?

That's a good question.
Nothing more oil laden than the oil tank itself.
Disturbing the air leaving it might upset the tank?
It'd be worth trying I suppose.
This idea is new to me. But if I didn't have a timing plug, I'd be prone to tap the cam cover.

I know, I here it coming. :hidechai

bustert 5th August 2019 14:04

i will have to go get the model of the dwyers manometer.
if you use anything diff, you will need to have a calibrated scale because diff fluids have diff specific gravity.
when i was running the control room on semi-submersible drilling rigs, we used mercury units because the heavy metal was a dampener of sorts when you consider the rig constantly moving. they monitored ballast level in the tanks 80 feet down from the texas deck.
cannot find a good brass needle valve here anymore so i had to use a B&S inline fuel cut off valve, china plastic.
in reality, the tube holds so little water, would be no issues. as far as color, i used food color so hot pink could happen. dwyers does make their own fluid with a florescence additive to heighten the contrast, my bottle leaked it all out.
need to look at the cases but a hidden or reversible method need to be made.
for grins and giggles, using a cam follower block bolt made for a tap off to the chest, probably would have to drill a small hole in the case if the hole is blind but the hole only needs to be very small, will have to see what i used. this way, replacing with the stock bolt covers everything up. if it weeps, a little teflon on the threads but myself, add o-ring groove under the head.

dieselvette 5th August 2019 14:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by bustert (Post 5767787)
cannot find a good brass needle valve here anymore so i had to use a B&S inline fuel cut off valve, china plastic.

Ebay - search for 1/4 brass needle valve.

Or, I have tons of tubing, fittings, etc if anyone needs something you can't find I will send for the cost of shipping. Won't be home until next week though.

Hippysmack 5th August 2019 15:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by bustert (Post 5767787)
if you use anything diff, you will need to have a calibrated scale because diff fluids have diff specific gravity.
in reality, the tube holds so little water, would be no issues. as far as color, i used food color so hot pink could happen. dwyers does make their own fluid with a florescence additive to heighten the contrast, my bottle leaked it all out.
need to look at the cases but a hidden or reversible method need to be made.
for grins and giggles, using a cam follower block bolt made for a tap off to the chest, probably would have to drill a small hole in the case if the hole is blind but the hole only needs to be very small, will have to see what i used. this way, replacing with the stock bolt covers everything up. if it weeps, a little teflon on the threads but myself, add o-ring groove under the head.

That's what I was wondering since the instruction sheet specifically said dyed water or mercury only.
As far as the liquid dampening, it's not compressibility but non compressibility I was thinking of.
I was thinking the more dense the liquid, the harder it is to affect (move) it.
Si I figure that would be a factor in operation.

I don't have a problem tapping into the engine.
But, it'd be nice to have an easy way to attach the unit for those without a timing plug.

So the valve is needed to regulate flow to get around the initial surge or during entire testing?

60Gunner 5th August 2019 15:53

Never tee into the tank vent line. I'll test good vs. bad breathers if someone wants to send me a set of good ones.

Tomcatt 5th August 2019 15:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hippysmack (Post 5767807)
So the valve is needed to regulate flow to get around the initial surge or during entire testing?

A restriction damps the fluctuations. A needle valve makes a nice adjustable damper. It's a full time thing. If a small diameter tube fed the gauge or manometer we'd shove the smallest pilot jet we had in it. Sometimes two if one didn't damp enough.

Hippysmack 5th August 2019 16:04

Ok, that makes sense.
I've never used one so lots of dumb questions. :geek

dieselvette 5th August 2019 16:43

To be clear, this is a pressure test and not a flow test. It is imperative that the fluid height be enough to prevent air from coming in/out - the fluid acts as a moving "air blocker" and this apparatus does not act like a second vent. Hence to need to buffer it with some kind of restriction, lest a sudden pulse blows the tube empty. 60Gunner do you suppose in this scenario, the tank vent line could be tapped into?

Depending on the amount of restriction (and air volume in the tubing etc) connecting the manometer, you will get different results in terms of fluctuations or pulsing. But in any case you'll get an overall average of CC pressure/vac which is repeatable with any manometer setup (assuming the same fluid). Ideally you would open the needle valve as far as possible, without your manometer going crazy.

60Gunner 5th August 2019 17:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by dieselvette (Post 5767828)
To be clear, this is a pressure test and not a flow test. It is imperative that the fluid height be enough to prevent air from coming in/out - the fluid acts as a moving "air blocker" and this apparatus does not act like a second vent. Hence to need to buffer it with some kind of restriction, lest a sudden pulse blows the tube empty. 60Gunner do you suppose in this scenario, the tank vent line could be tapped into?

Depending on the amount of restriction (and air volume in the tubing etc) connecting the manometer, you will get different results in terms of fluctuations or pulsing. But in any case you'll get an overall average of CC pressure/vac which is repeatable with any manometer setup (assuming the same fluid). Ideally you would open the needle valve as far as possible, without your manometer going crazy.

It will take oil with it.

Tomcatt 5th August 2019 17:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by 60Gunner (Post 5767836)
It will take oil with it.

Based on what?

You'd be tapping a vent line and the only "flow" would be the amount you see the manometers' column moving.

bustert 5th August 2019 17:49

the slack tube is a dwyers 1723-72 which will measure to 72" of water.
orifice size is based off piston diameter
my chosen size was 7/64
interestingly, there was no oil mirgration through the orifice.

to be honest, i see no issues with using the c/c to bag line since there is no flow out the manometer. only issue i can see is if there was oil being pushed through the line.
you could even modify an oil cap, this is done on automobiles, matter of fact, cooper has an article for doing so on their r5 engines.
the issue here is that the further from test point, time factors in travel effects readings with larger diameter lines adding more skew.
they do have handle bar mounts that will hold a vac/press gauge, they even have hand held digital units that can record. dwyers sells them.

60Gunner 5th August 2019 18:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tomcatt (Post 5767845)
Based on what?

You'd be tapping a vent line and the only "flow" would be the amount you see the manometers' column moving.

Based on numerous accounts of people trying to vent there. Go ahead and tee there.

Tomcatt 5th August 2019 18:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by bustert (Post 5767846)
they do have handle bar mounts that will hold a vac/press gauge, they even have hand held digital units that can record. dwyers sells them.

Yep, a gauge/meter taped to the bars could be seen as you ride so you could see pressure/vacuum under real conditions. Just need an "inches of water" gauge with a useful range that will read pos and neg pressure. Then damp it well enough to not kill the gauge. Big diameter analog gauges with needles can be easier to read.

Tomcatt 5th August 2019 18:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by 60Gunner (Post 5767852)
Based on numerous accounts of people trying to vent there. Go ahead and tee there.

We're not talking about venting, just a pressure tap. Two different things. Now you've read that on the internet too.

needspeed 5th August 2019 18:43

I've used an automotive vacuum gauge, usually used to measure intake manifold vacuum, to measure crankcase vacuum on my old ironhead. It will read negative and positive pressure.

For what you're trying to find out, wouldn't that work just as well as a manometer?

Hippysmack 5th August 2019 18:45

Can't take him anywhere. :laugh

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tomcatt (Post 5767857)
We're not talking about venting, just a pressure tap. Two different things. Now you've read that on the internet too.

Judging from the balloon test, Aaron's and bustert's testing, there shouldn't be any reason you couldn't use the vent line.
If it turns out bad, you may have other problems to address anyway.
The vent mods folks do there are different in that air is allowed to vent.
As mentioned, as long as the water is not blown out, it's just a pressure test point.
No different than installing a pressure gauge there.
I've got to get around to getting a flow meter as well.


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