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-   -   Rubbermount_EVO Sloppy up-shifting when hot? (http://xlforum.net/forums/showthread.php?t=2079935)

Oli1200 4th August 2021 19:14

Sloppy up-shifting when hot?
 
2004 1200. Replaced my clutch in 2016 with the extra plate Barnett kit.

For the last couple seasons Ive noticed my upshifting is becoming more labored and I'm missing shifts more often in mid-high rpm range. Downshifting there's no problem. With forwards and mid controls. It feels the gears feel sloppy and theres no real feeling of definite engagement when upshifting. I thought it might be just rider error but it's definitely not that. I'm seemingly having to focus more on my upshifting to get cleaner shifts. Again it happens more when the bike gets hot and Ive been riding for 15-20 mins. Im not getting any strange noises when shifting.

I've re-adjusted the primary chain, inner clutch, hand lever and fluid level by the book too many times at this point. Theres something wrong.

Could it just be my barnett clutch burning out? Hoping it's not a tranny issue.

Thanks for all replies.

IXL2Relax 4th August 2021 20:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oli1200 (Post 5909039)
I'm missing shifts more often in mid-high rpm range.

If you've been shifting hard & fast, it might just be the springs...

Here's the Sportsterpedia section on the 2004-later 5-spd trans, including the shifter:
http://sportsterpedia.com/doku.php/t...o:transfinal04

The shifter is accessible outside the cases (behind the primary cover).

IXL _______ >>>> My Motorcycle Chronicles Are Here <<<<
For Sportster Tech Info:
Ride The Sportsterpedia - A Toll-Free XLForum Information Highway!

Oli1200 4th August 2021 21:33

I ride pretty sensibly in general, ride it hard on occasion. I dont do burnouts or wheelies.

Fivecats 4th August 2021 23:35

Back off the primary chain adjustment a tad {1/8 turn} even if its "by the book".

Nibelungen 5th August 2021 00:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fivecats (Post 5909076)
Back off the primary chain adjustment a tad {1/8 turn} even if its "by the book".

correct...
and change primary oil with a good gear oil...
a bit more often
i do this each time I change the motor oil...

now my upshift in 3 rd is much better

that is one of the advantages...
for ride a well known bike...
a model changed only a little over the years...

wedge 5th August 2021 00:59

Have you checked the throwout bearing?

Oli1200 5th August 2021 15:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by wedge (Post 5909096)
Have you checked the throwout bearing?

I'll have that checked out. To add, it just feels like the clutch isnt disengaging enough causing rough sloppy more labored upshifts.

wedge 5th August 2021 21:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oli1200 (Post 5909232)
I'll have that checked out. To add, it just feels like the clutch isnt disengaging enough causing rough sloppy more labored upshifts.

That's why I asked about the throwout bearing. Since you already have an extra plate kit we can rule out the spring plate, but whenever a clutch with good history of working starts to get "grabby" there is a MECHANICAL problem.

Normal clutch wear causes slip, and that is curable with an adjustment.

Grab is never more than temporarily adjustable, because; you are adjusting to compensate for bad parts and as the parts continue to fail the fresh adjustment goes away with it. In your case the most likely culprit is the throwout bearing. As it wears, the race gouges out on the load side, and the balls get smaller which allows the adjusting screw to have more slop, that means when you pull the clutch lever you need to pull out the added slop, plus the adjusted amount of slop before the plates can start to separate.

I felt a throwout bearing going away on a long day of riding through street level riding. I kept adjusting the cable as I rode and kept my fingers crossed. I finally made it back to the shop, and I had a new bearing on the shelf, so I got it just in time, it was destroying itself faster and faster as the wear progressed.

The spring plate causes the same issue but it does it by depositing debris between the plates so they make contact sooner, and that makes the slop in the adjustment greater as the plates stop moving together sooner. You cured that but I put it here for reference.

A shredding cable can do this too, because that increases slop as the strands break and the cable stretches.

I repeat this a lot, because it's important to know that slop will not naturally increase. Plate wear decreases slop so the plates separate sooner as y pull the handle. If you are aware of this you can feel when problems start and fix them before they fix you.

Once you end up with no slop as the plates wear, then as they wear further, the plates will slip as you try to engage the clutch. I saw one so bad once that it was described to me as having 5 neutrals. Those clutch plates continued to slip and wear until all they could do was slip. And that is and was easily adjusted out by giving it the correct amount of play. No damage other than having the platers heat up like that from slipping as it was ridden.

bustert 6th August 2021 13:27

will it shift without using the clutch?

wedge 6th August 2021 19:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oli1200 (Post 5909232)
I'll have that checked out. To add, it just feels like the clutch isnt disengaging enough causing rough sloppy more labored upshifts.

You should be the one to check it out. The throwout bearing is easily accessible and WHEN you find that it is falling apart it can be replaced in a half hour with basic tools and a snap ring pliar. (If you don't own two snap ring pliars you need to buy them. One for pushing the ends out and another for pulling the ends in). For this job you need the one that pulls in. You will also need a couple of the correct size sockets to use with a bolt and nut/washers to press the bearing out and back in to the holder. Oh, you need the outie snap ring pliars to get the adjusting bolt out of the center of the bearing and back into the new one. The new style tapered bearings are what most people are using now. Regardless, buy two and after replacing this one you will have a spare for the day that you feel this starting all over again.

I use my clutch at lights rather than sit in neutral. That causes them to wear out faster.

Nibelungen 6th August 2021 19:20

when upshifting in 3 rd gear (riding aggressively) often with my bike it was less than perfect...
ok riding gently...
ok downshifting... no matter if gently or aggressive


this behavior was like this:
before my complete rebuild at 46k kms for broken crankpin...
and also after the rebuild... (the mechs checked the tranny and it was ok)

I myself changed the throwout bearing with the FAG 7200B TVP angular one... 20k km ago...
the behavior still was present...
I made myself clear...
nothing to worry...
only a bit upsetting...

a bit of slack in the primary (only a bit compared to the FSM specs) and doubled the change of primary fluid...
brought things a little more to the right side...

Oli1200 7th August 2021 03:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by wedge (Post 5909481)
You should be the one to check it out. The throwout bearing is easily accessible and WHEN you find that it is falling apart it can be replaced in a half hour with basic tools and a snap ring pliar. (If you don't own two snap ring pliars you need to buy them. One for pushing the ends out and another for pulling the ends in). For this job you need the one that pulls in. You will also need a couple of the correct size sockets to use with a bolt and nut/washers to press the bearing out and back in to the holder. Oh, you need the outie snap ring pliars to get the adjusting bolt out of the center of the bearing and back into the new one. The new style tapered bearings are what most people are using now. Regardless, buy two and after replacing this one you will have a spare for the day that you feel this starting all over again.

I use my clutch at lights rather than sit in neutral. That causes them to wear out faster.

I always usually sit in neutral. Thanks for the replies. Yeah I'll check it out myself this weekend since I forgot the primary cover doesn't have to come off. I'm gettin lazy. :p Hopefully the bearing is the fix.

Oli1200 7th August 2021 20:58

I just removed my primary cover to check things out. I removed the throwout bearing and c-clip and it appears to be fine, everything is intact and its not flopping around. The shifter springs appear to be fine as well. The shift shaft had a little bit of front to back play and little bit of side to side play which I would think is normal-ish? Everything appeared to be normal, nothing found is my fluid.

Fivecats 8th August 2021 06:05

since its apart
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Fivecats (Post 5909076)
Back off the primary chain adjustment a tad {1/8 turn} even if its "by the book".


Nibelungen 8th August 2021 13:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fivecats (Post 5909076)
Back off the primary chain adjustment a tad {1/8 turn} even if its "by the book".


correct...
also put in a good brand new expensive and syn gear oil (fitted for gears and clutches altogether)

at worse
new gear oil it does not harm
and if backing off a bit the primary chain... wouldn't resolve... you can ever bring back the tensioner like before

as a matter of fact... nothing to loose

Oli1200 29th August 2021 17:49

update
 
So apparently a cracked clutch hub can cause my issues. I always knew ONE of my clutch hub fingers had been chipped and damaged when I replaced my clutch in 2016. I didn't think it would matter much but I'm told my clutch doesn't sit properly the way it's supposed to because of the crack.

wedge 29th August 2021 21:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oli1200 (Post 5913891)
So apparently a cracked clutch hub can cause my issues. I always knew ONE of my clutch hub fingers had been chipped and damaged when I replaced my clutch in 2016. I didn't think it would matter much but I'm told my clutch doesn't sit properly the way it's supposed to because of the crack.

That's a possible.

gary59 14th September 2021 03:41

There is another thing you can adjust inside the primary.. I watched a youtube video of Doc Harley a couple of days ago. It requires a drill bit.

SonWon 14th September 2021 10:07

Please do share the youtube link.

ChinCactus 14th September 2021 15:14

https://duckduckgo.com/?t=ffsb&q=95+...%3DNT_MxPOHw5w

wedge 14th September 2021 19:16

That's an older sportster in the video. I do not remember any adjustment on the 04 and up models. Am I wrong?

As I remember from replacing a shifter shaft that had one of the palls jump over the restraining pin. (Actually not a pin, it is a bump that is stamped into the plate from the back side) that holds the palls in position and the act of that pall jumping over it when dropping the bike caused the bump to wear and it had to be replaced to keep the pall where it belongs. The entire shaft with palls attached is centered by a spring that pushes it back into position when moved in either direction.

Oli1200 16th September 2021 15:39

So after replacing the clutch hub, pressure plate and clutch release bearing and final adjustments I find my issue is still there. My clutch plates are good too after inspection.

I'm starting to think its my error and my left foot getting cramped with mid controls. I went to shift yesterday and couldnt physically move my foot up to shift at one point.

Clutch isnt dragging because Ill come to a stop in 3rd gear clutch in and it's completely disengaged.

Going to go back to forward controls or foot clutch jockey shifting again maybe.

Could my 8 year old clutch cable need replacing? My clutch cable was leaking at the bottom due to an abrasion which I patched up with electrical tape.

gary59 16th September 2021 15:47

Put that bike in gear and try to push it and it should not move. Now pull in the clutch/cable and it should roll freely. If it doesn't than there might be an issue with the cable or clutch.

Oli1200 16th September 2021 17:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by gary59 (Post 5916552)
Put that bike in gear and try to push it and it should not move. Now pull in the clutch/cable and it should roll freely. If it doesn't than there might be an issue with the cable or clutch.

In first gear clutch pulled in it will move but there is still a little resistance especially when first trying to get it rolling.

gary59 16th September 2021 18:10

Pull on the cable with your hand where it goes into the lever and there should be a distance about the width of a nickel. If not, adjust it until you have this distance. Sounds like your cable is too loose because it should roll freely when you pull in the clutch lever.

wedge 16th September 2021 19:28

In my experience, there is always a little drag with the clutch lever pulled in and trying to push the bike backwards while sitting on it. My bikes do roll freely out of gear, but not with the clutch puled in while in gear. It's slight, but it's noticeable. If the bike is still running, the drag seems worse when pushing backwards.


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