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-   -   Rigid_EVO Clutch squeal ? Bad throwout bearing ? (http://xlforum.net/forums/showthread.php?t=1688139)

ReddTigger 7th October 2013 18:55

Clutch squeal ? Bad throwout bearing ?
 
So my scheduled bikers for babies ride for yesterday had a hiccup..
first i lost my glasses, and couldn't find the back up, so i shoot into a convenience store and buy a pair of sunglasses (all they had, and there is no way anyone would call them "masculine") but I can ride, good..

jump back on the bike and clutch starts squeeling.. then i can't shift.. so i adjusted the clutch.. gets worse, i adjust the other way, better but crappy still..

i end up loosing a good portion of the ability to shift, as i ride it home, getting passed by the convoy of bikes (on the ride i was supposed to be on) going in the opposite direction..

i get home, pull off the derby cover, take out the ball and ramp assembly and the threaded rod goes limp.. rut roh.. that can't be good. the bearing is toast.

i cut it open and this is what i find..

http://i44.tinypic.com/b3su2d.jpg

and this

http://i42.tinypic.com/29etbv4.jpg

norseXL 7th October 2013 19:01

Shit! Happened to me to, lost the clutch completely and of corse I was in down-town Oslo, wery funny,
,
,
Not!


Tore




.

geoff 7th October 2013 19:17

Just went through this myself - looks like the inner race is a weak spot

http://i1261.photobucket.com/albums/...ps484c9e7e.jpg

I was 3 miles from home on a less travelled concession road ... thank God for friendly farmers with a trailer.

ReddTigger 7th October 2013 21:15

I ordered these bearings as listed in Grinds post.. we'll try them out



Quote:

Originally Posted by ~Grind~ (Post 4560023)



Throw-out bearings. OEM on the left and the 7200B angular contact bearing on the right.


http://i670.photobucket.com/albums/v...ps4cfbaab2.jpg

http://i670.photobucket.com/albums/v...psbbb3985a.jpg




Copied this post from another thread. Explains how to install the angular contact bearing. Thanks Dirty Don for the heads up on this bearing!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dirty Don (Post 4551472)
I went out and looked at mine, all apart, and it looks like the primary cover might need to come off, maybe not. But the throw out bearing is in its own little housing, held in by a retaining ring and the assembly can be removed. Then you take the small retaining ring off the threaded shaft and press it out. The bearing itself can then be pressed out of its housing, press the new one in, by the outer race, making sure the widest side of the outer race on an angular contact bearing goes into the housing first, then replace the shaft and retaining ring, put the assembly back in with its retaining ring and it's done. You must be sure of the orientation on an angular contact bearing so your thrust is applied to the races properly. Then put your primary cover and the rest back together.




Ocgreenmachine 7th October 2013 23:47

Grind, any particular brand on the 7200B angular contact bearings? Also, size is 10x30, correct?


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rocketmangb 8th October 2013 01:07

Does the bearing "push" in or "pull" out when you cycle the clutch lever ?

Ocgreenmachine 8th October 2013 01:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by rocketmangb (Post 4596219)
Does the bearing "push" in or "pull" out when you cycle the clutch lever ?

Was this for me?


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wedge 8th October 2013 01:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by rocketmangb (Post 4596219)
Does the bearing "push" in or "pull" out when you cycle the clutch lever ?

You should know that by now. It pulls out when you pull the lever. You are pulling the adjusting screw towards the derby cover and that is pulling the pressure plate away from the plates.

SO... On the pictures above, the bearing is installed in the holder so that the side facing you is the side shown on the right of the top set of pictures (the wider outer race is towards you). The adjuster screw is installed so that the threaded end points towards you, in the same direction as the wider side of the outer race. (The side with the numbers stamped in it).

Note, this means that the wide center race is facing away from you. (The side without the numbers)

ReddTigger 8th October 2013 01:44

On other words.
Fat end first

rocketmangb 8th October 2013 02:04

Why dont the fat outer race face out ?

http://www.skf.com/binary/12-97838/519961-.pdf

wedge 8th October 2013 02:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by rocketmangb (Post 4596280)
Why dont the fat outer race face out ?

http://www.skf.com/binary/12-97838/519961-.pdf

Re-read my post, it does. The fat INNER race points in. The fat outer race points out (or at you like I said).

rocketmangb 8th October 2013 02:12

Guess i read it wrong thats why it made no sense to me
Bearing goes in the BACK of the housing fat out outer first.
Check !

ReddTigger 8th October 2013 02:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by wedge (Post 4596281)
Re-read my post, it does. The fat INNER race points in. The fat outer race points out (or at you like I said).


Right the fat outer race goes first......

Because the retainer needs to go in w with the bearing on the inside

mikeLI_77 8th October 2013 02:19

@Tigger: If I remember correctly that is the same thing that happened to me on the way home from what I think was the philly cheese steak run wear we got stuck on the Staten Island Expressway on the way home for 2+ hours and I also slightly burnt up my clutch from it not disengaging correctly the whole time.

wedge 8th October 2013 02:36

This can easily get confusing because we are now talking about the bearing holder that is held in with the big retaining ring. The bearing goes into that holder with the fat outer race going in first, and the threaded adjuster goes in with the mushroom end on that back side where you push the bearing into. There is also a small clip that holds the adjuster into the center of the bearing. One of those gets pressed, and I can't remember if you press the adjuster screw into the bearing center race, or if you press the bearing into the holder. One is press fit, the other just slides in, and I suspect the clip on the adjuster means it is the one that is a slip fit.

Just remember that as you pull on the adjuster screw you want to be pulling the fat side of the inner race into the bearing towards the fat outer race so that the balls are running on the thicker material of both races when under pressure so they don't wear out quickly in the pattern you see in the failed bearing pictures.

geoff 8th October 2013 02:42

Bearing is pressed into the plate, the adjuster screw slips in and is held by a clip

~Grind~ 8th October 2013 02:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ocgreenmachine (Post 4596116)
Grind, any particular brand on the 7200B angular contact bearings? Also, size is 10x30, correct?


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I don't know the manufacturer of the bearings I purchased. Yes the size is 10x30x9. The package had ASIN:B002BILZC along with the 7200B 10x30x9 Angular Contact printed on it.

~Grind~ 8th October 2013 02:51

Here is how Dirty Don explained the installation process.

Originally Posted by Dirty Don View Post
I went out and looked at mine, all apart, and it looks like the primary cover might need to come off, maybe not. But the throw out bearing is in its own little housing, held in by a retaining ring and the assembly can be removed. Then you take the small retaining ring off the threaded shaft and press it out. The bearing itself can then be pressed out of its housing, press the new one in, by the outer race, making sure the widest side of the outer race on an angular contact bearing goes into the housing first, then replace the shaft and retaining ring, put the assembly back in with its retaining ring and it's done. You must be sure of the orientation on an angular contact bearing so your thrust is applied to the races properly. Then put your primary cover and the rest back together.

rocketmangb 8th October 2013 03:01

Sounds right Grind
If ya put it in the other way it wont live for shit !

ReddTigger 8th October 2013 04:32

It will probably live longer then oem.I ordered then today,.should have then next week

MacSporty02 1st December 2013 06:57

Got photos for those that are slow...like me...LoL!!

ReddTigger 1st December 2013 08:23

I'll take some tomorrow..

Desertfox 1st December 2013 14:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by ReddTigger (Post 4596439)
It will probably live longer then oem.I ordered then today,.should have then next week

Been through this myself (twice). Once for the throw out bearing and once for the main clutch hub bearing. Bikes that are steadily in city rush hour traffic or otherwise clutched a lot are prone to this. I would recommend an OEM replacement. It has been my experience to be the best route. Most (but by no means all) after market stuff tends to be junk.. and using a bearing not specifically designed for this purpose just because it fits is not necessarily a wise choice. It is amazing how much you can spend chasing what is cheap.


BTW I would recommend changing the main clutch hub bearing as well while you are at it . Save you an annoying problem that you will probably have sooner rather than later. If the throw out bearing goes, your main clutch hub bearing is probably not far behind .

wedge 1st December 2013 19:54

There are a lot of good American bearing manufacturers out there, so as long as it's not from Thaipanschewan :wonderlan I would run it.

And who makes the Harley bearing? It could be manufactured in a desert somewhere, between sandstorms for all we know.

I do agree that some Harley parts seem to be better than after market, and so far the battery seems to be one of them, unless you get a high tech type battery I suppose, so there are no given answers on quality. I look into every part and evaluate what I think it's worth. For instance I just paid way too much for a rotor with a brand name that I am not fond of, but the rear on these things is a bit quirky, so I went with the best possible floating rotor available. I also use EBC Brake pads, sintered in the rear, and straight organic in the front to balance out the braking. Harley pads eat rotors and are way to grabby in my opinion.

ReddTigger 2nd December 2013 00:08

Doing mikes build, I've had LOTS of OEM bearings, So far only a handfull have been made in USA.. I had one. that said it was made in Germany on the outer package.. then the bearing said made in brazil. and HD isn't ONLY using TIMKEN (they used to use them exclusively) these days either.. which is what I replaced most of the bearings (when I could find them) with.

BobWLR 3rd December 2013 01:11

Bearings I removed from my tranny, clutch hub etc were FAG bearings. Replacements from HD were also FAG. Zippers used PEER bearings (made in China and they personally garrantied them as top quality) in my Trapdoor. Bearings ordered from aftermarket sources may be All Balls Gorilla bearings ??? Hard to find anything made in the USA anymore. The AutoClutch I installed should eleminate any throwout bearing issues but then the throwout bearing is much cheaper to replace haha.

Edit: Your local bearing house is a good source. They even had FAG bearngs but almost all the bearings I sourced from them were sealed type. I just poped the seals off. They are all standard bearings, no mystery stuff, The Part# is etched on the side of the race as id the country of origin. The output bearing was tha same as a Big Twin.

ReddTigger 3rd December 2013 02:04

Finally got the pictures..

with the shoulder of the release plate facing downwards, (same way you would install bearing)
http://i39.tinypic.com/dcpnoi.jpg

http://i39.tinypic.com/j8kyu9.jpg

it's hard to see what it SHOULD look like installed because of the ridge.. so here's another of what
it SHOULD NOT Look like..
http://i41.tinypic.com/dyoh9v.jpg

boomerguy 29th August 2019 15:01

Are there any pictures of the correct FACE-OUT/FACE-IN installation? I found this video and both sides look the same (I think).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZutYyY1yrY

This is what I ordered:
https://www.amazon.com/FAG-7200B-TVP...XDGKJBDVHCCSWM

IXL2Relax 29th August 2019 15:25

The Sporsterpedia page on the Clutch has that picture (above) from Reddtigger:
http://sportsterpedia.com/doku.php/t...r_ball_bearing

Look at the diagram that accompanies the picture (see below)... Pay attention to the thickness of the races and the direction they are installed...

http://sportsterpedia.com/lib/exe/fe...400&tok=9d98c2

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wedge 29th August 2019 18:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by IXL2Relax (Post 5773573)
The Sporsterpedia page on the Clutch has that picture (above) from Reddtigger:
http://sportsterpedia.com/doku.php/t...r_ball_bearing

Look at the diagram that accompanies the picture (see below)... Pay attention to the thickness of the races and the direction they are installed...

http://sportsterpedia.com/lib/exe/fe...400&tok=9d98c2

IXL _______ >>>> My Motorcycle Chronicles Are Here <<<<
For FREE Sportster Tech Info from the XLForum:
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That drawing really shows it good.

boomerguy 29th August 2019 20:53

+1. The drawing really helps. Thanks for keeping the Sportsterpedia going and growing!

boomerguy 6th September 2019 03:40

Since I had a few cool mornings in the Man Cave, I went ahead and replaced my stock throw out bearing with the FAG Angular bearing (the text actually helped more than the pictures when identifying the wide inner and narrow outer races, and vice versa on the other side. I used a 32mm and an 18mm socket with two boards and bench vice for pressing out the old one and just the 32mm socket with two boards for pressing in the new one. Worked like a charm. The old bearing still looked and felt good.
I also replaced the "grenade" spring plate in the clutch discs with 2 steels and one fiber/friction plate. Again, worked like a charm. The spring plate was still good but who wants a time bomb/grenade in the transmission?
I took my time on disassembly and reassembly and used the James River primary cover gasket kit and even used the cardboard backing for the package to draw the template of the gasket with holes numbered in order of torqueing (Is there such a word?).
Went for a 25-mile test ride and all is good. Going for a very long ride tomorrow. Regarding the difference in feel while operating the clutch: the lever is easier to pull and the engagement is a little quicker, but not much.
The 2005 Sporty only has 14K miles on it.

IXL2Relax 6th September 2019 05:36

It's a great feeling when you work on your own bike
and then make a successfully test ride... :D

AND - It keeps a bit more coins in your pocket to fill the tank
by not having to fork over hundred dollar bills at the dealer...

Ride Safe...

IXL _______ >>>> My Motorcycle Chronicles Are Here <<<<
For FREE Sportster Tech Info from the XLForum:
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boomerguy 6th September 2019 13:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by IXL2Relax (Post 5775188)
It's a great feeling when you work on your own bike
and then make a successfully test ride... :D

AND - It keeps a bit more coins in your pocket to fill the tank
by not having to fork over hundred dollar bills at the dealer...

Ride Safe...

IXL _______ >>>> My Motorcycle Chronicles Are Here <<<<
For FREE Sportster Tech Info from the XLForum:
Explore The Sportsterpedia - The Best Kept Secret on the XLForum!

You're right. Once the job is done and the test ride goes well, the bike (or whatever vehicle you worked on) becomes more of a part of you. I like knowing what is going on inside the workings as well as having more confidence to take on more jobs. Thanks to this forum, Sportsterpedia and finding the best parts of u-tube videos to compile my own list of steps and parts, I am not quite as helpless as I thought. In my area, local shade tree mechanics with any skills are rare or too busy and the stealerships are just that. So increasing my own skills is a priority.
Thanks to everyone on XLForum for helping out. If anyone is interested in my list of steps for these two jobs, I created a Word Document that I can share. Just send me a message. It's really too long to post here because I'm afraid it may bore too many people. I make these lists for myself in case there is a next time.

boomerguy 6th September 2019 15:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by ReddTigger (Post 4657078)
Finally got the pictures..

with the shoulder of the release plate facing downwards, (same way you would install bearing)
http://i39.tinypic.com/dcpnoi.jpg

http://i39.tinypic.com/j8kyu9.jpg

it's hard to see what it SHOULD look like installed because of the ridge.. so here's another of what
it SHOULD NOT Look like..
http://i41.tinypic.com/dyoh9v.jpg

This picture plus the following text helped me the most in my swap to the FAG 7200B angular throw out bearing:

The new FAG 7200B angular throw out bearing goes into the release plate with the wide-OUTER race going in first. The threaded adjuster screw goes in with the mushroom end on the back side of where you push the bearing into. This makes the base (mushroom) end with a lip to be in contact with the wide-INNER race. The bearing must be PRESS-FIT into position inside the release plate.

The following is a word document of the steps I used to replace the bearing including how I pressed the old one out and the new one in. It worked perfectly:

Replace the THROW OUT BEARING:
This can be done now or at any time the clutch ramp assembly has been removed.
1. Remove the snap ring which holds the release plate (holder/retainer) in place.
2. Remove the release plate.
3. Remove the retaining ring/circlip which holds the threaded adjuster screw in place.
4. Remove the old stock throw out bearing from the release plate by PRESSING it out. (See notes below.)
5. The new FAG 7200B angular throw out bearing goes into the release plate with the wide-OUTER race going in first. The threaded adjuster screw goes in with the mushroom end on the back side of where you push the bearing into. This makes the base (mushroom) end with a lip to be in contact with the wide-INNER race. The bearing must be PRESS-FIT into position inside the release plate. (See note below.)

Once the adjuster screw is inserted through the bearing with the threads facing out of the other side of the release plate, install the small retaining/circlip that holds the adjuster screw in place.

The wide-outer and the narrow-inner races are on the same side. (This is the numbers side.)
The narrow-outer and the wide-inner are on the same side.

Note:
• To PRESS OUT the old throw out bearing from the release plate, you will need an 18mm socket and a 32mm socket with two small boards and a bench vice.
• To PRESS IN the new bearing into the release plate, will need only the 32mm socket and two small boards with a bench vice. Be careful not to press too far. You can tap the final distance with a soft hammer and the 32mm socket.

Tomcatt 6th September 2019 16:48

Glad you got it. I know on mine the bearing pressed in and out easily. The benefit not mentioned is that you do increase your clutch area when you replace the grenade plate with the 2 steels and a friction so you do get increased capacity / hook up without an increase in spring pressure.

boomerguy 6th September 2019 17:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tomcatt (Post 5775261)
Glad you got it. I know on mine the bearing pressed in and out easily. The benefit not mentioned is that you do increase your clutch area when you replace the grenade plate with the 2 steels and a friction so you do get increased capacity / hook up without an increase in spring pressure.

There were some comments about this setup causing a chirping sound. Mine doesn't do that. It's quiet and smooth, just a slightly quicker engagement of the clutch which I think is normal when compared to other brands of motorcycles. I always thought the H-D system used up more of the lever for complete clutch engagement than other bikes I've owned. For what it's worth, I use the same oil in my primary that I use in my engine - AMSOIL 20W/50 V-Twin Motorcycle Oil.

Tomcatt 6th September 2019 17:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by boomerguy (Post 5775263)
There were some comments about this setup causing a chirping sound. Mine doesn't do that.

Wait a little while and see. Mine did the screech/shudder. It's an occasional not all the time thing. Redline Limited Slip Additive finally "fixed" it.

60Gunner 6th September 2019 18:03

Most people never experience the squeal. You'll need a better diaphragm spring if you do a conversion.
Yours is pretty light and your clutch will slip with the added power. Keep an eye out for another stock 1200 spring from people doing the E1 kit's 15% spring. I did the 15% with the E1 but it's really not necessary with the stock 1200 spring until you get closer to 100+ hp. Unfortunately I only I had 1 to give away.

boomerguy 6th September 2019 19:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by 60Gunner (Post 5775271)
Most people never experience the squeal. You'll need a better diaphragm spring if you do a conversion.
Yours is pretty light and your clutch will slip with the added power. Keep an eye out for another stock 1200 spring from people doing the E1 kit's 15% spring. I did the 15% with the E1 but it's really not necessary with the stock 1200 spring until you get closer to 100+ hp. Unfortunately I only I had 1 to give away.

I'm not sure why I would have added power. All I did was replace the grenade plate with 3 stock plates (2 steel and 1 friction). I also replaced the stock throw out bearing with a FAG 7200B. Everything feels normal other than the slightly quicker engagement which is hardly noticeable unless you look for it.


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