Operation Live Wire

[oupa]

Originally Posted by ParrotHead

I suspect the price is as high as it is so they don't sell thousands of them because the production line could not support that many. As was said, this is the start and they want to get some bikes out into the publics hands and at the same time improve the production process so it is more efficient.

Also, look at the price of any new technology when it is introduced, it is always high. How many spent thousands for the first LED TV that came out? In December I bought a 43" LED TV for around $250.

Another thought, the Livewire is a sportbike, not a cruiser like the rest of the bikes. Perhaps it is a lead to get people looking at a HD sportbike to drive interest in the coming street fighter.

The biggest flaw I see is the proprietary charging stations. My understanding is they will be tied to the ones at the dealers. To be efficient all electric vehicles need a standard charging station.

And lastly range. I've seen much complaining online from many people of the 110 mile mixed riding and 70 mile highway riding range. How many riders truly ride that far on every ride?

Some excellent points! I was not aware of the incompatibility if that's true. Dealers (those selling them at least) are required to install charging stations. This is true as far as I'm aware for e-car dealers as well. My contention all along is that #1, virtually all the critics are not looking at this product from the same perspective as the MoCo. It is a departure. Some of "the faithful" feel betrayed by that. Many of the non-H-D folks will find any reason to bash the brand. It is a given though that we are moving towards e-vehicles. Those who get in early with R&D and develop the all important brand loyalty in any similar venture, are typically winners for the long run. Most importantly, such successful brands don't always have the best product in that market!

You're mention of the typical ride being under 100 miles is correct as well. Running errands. Going to an appointment. Just riding around the local area. This is not intended to be a long-range touring bike!

The traditional rider need not embrace the LiveWire, but I really wish more would at least give it a chance to succeed or fail on it's own merits. If you have no desire to buy one, what's the purpose of badmouthing it?
Lessons will be learned by shortcomings that emerge through use. That's normal product development. Range, weight and charge rate are all things in a state of flux today. Things every vehicle manufacturer is trying desperately to improve. The greatest boost to those efforts, will be a growing e-vehicle market. Chicken or egg?

[rejeanprimeau]

Originally Posted by ParrotHead

I suspect the price is as high as it is so they don't sell thousands of them because the production line could not support that many. As was said, this is the start and they want to get some bikes out into the publics hands and at the same time improve the production process so it is more efficient.

Also, look at the price of any new technology when it is introduced, it is always high. How many spent thousands for the first LED TV that came out? In December I bought a 43" LED TV for around $250.

Another thought, the Livewire is a sportbike, not a cruiser like the rest of the bikes. Perhaps it is a lead to get people looking at a HD sportbike to drive interest in the coming street fighter.

The biggest flaw I see is the proprietary charging stations. My understanding is they will be tied to the ones at the dealers. To be efficient all electric vehicles need a standard charging station.

And lastly range. I've seen much complaining online from many people of the 110 mile mixed riding and 70 mile highway riding range. How many riders truly ride that far on every ride?

As a Volt driver we don't need charging station, just supply us with a plug that can deliver 50 amps on a three prong welder plug. All the different stations are just a ways for chumy to make money. It will be too simple to just have plug a 6-50P. Take me 4 hours to charge for 80km at 16amp.
The electric cars is just another ways of pulling money out of our pocket.

[XL Ed]

70 miles huh? By the time I rode home from the dealer I would have to turn around and ride back for a recharge. I don't understand if the Zero can go 400 km why can the HD only get 100?

[rejeanprimeau]

One has an alcaline Duracell the other a lithium Energizer. LOL

One cost 12,000 the other much more.

You have to play with H-D, high price, high torque, heavy and low mileage.

[Ireeman]

Dual flow batteries apposed 90* like a guzzi could work. Lots of range and quick charge.

[Kbetts]

Tech innovation is a science. Innovators/early adopters pay maximum prices. (buyers soonest to last are "innovators,early adopter,early majority, late majority, and laggard) High prices paid by innovators and early adopters pay for infrastructure, legislation, and consumer preference which work to mature the product.

The history of the VCR is the classic example. The first VCR were invented in 1952 and commercially available in 1957 for $340,000 in today's dollars. Consumer models came out in the 1960's. There were copyright problems that ended up in court. Technology wars between the Betamax and VHS formats became an issue.

I see all that being played out with electric vehicles. Motorcycles for now are not having the additional problem of incorporating self-driving tech into the product but who knows.

With this level of tech being directly linked to the manufacturers every time you plug in, privacy issues still have to be worked out. I played racquetball with a Chrysler electrical engineer. In 1996 I asked him about using a pager system to upload and download software changes to the ECU and he refused to say even one word on the subject. That spoke volumes to me. Why do you think all our vehicles have little antennas for "satellite radio" on them when there's such a low usage rate? Privacy is an issue and no one is talking about it.

As are ownership issues for that matter. It's thought that we'll end up leasing all vehicles to overcome these issues. Volvo has already brought out a "Subscription" for a vehicle and I think that'll be how we end up.

So Harley is busting down some pretty big walls with their e-bike. Wish them success but I'm late majority/laggard kind of guy and will most likely never own one.

Cheers

[Toejam503]

If I get the chance to test ride a Live Wire, I'm gonna do it. Until the price were to come down I don't think I'd live long enough to own one. Well, still be young enough to be able to ride one, anyhow.
Kbetts: I was wondering what the actual 1957 price of a VCR was, I've never found that "today's dollar value" to be a very accurate statement of price. I agree with your assessment on leasing and "subscription" purchases. Most things, nowadays, have become so overpriced, for the average wage earner, that leasing is one of the few options of affordability, to possess a reliable vehicle or what have you.

[Kbetts]

I tend to go overboard after going back to school to get a degree in Management of Technology/Tech Transfer to use with my systems engineering. Lots of statistics, accounting, marketing,money and banking, finance stuff got in my head. Sorry.

Reference the Livewire, it's price seems to me that it's based on technology models rather than standard product marketing models. That's why I cited the VCR example

Originally Posted by Toejam503

Kbetts: I was wondering what the actual 1957 price of a VCR was, I've never found that "today's dollar value" to be a very accurate statement of price. I agree with your assessment on leasing and "subscription" purchases.

It sold for $50,0000 in 1957.

If you use purchasing power based on Consumer Price Index you get one value and if you use published inflation rate you get another. The article said it is $340,000 in today's dollar.

You could use gold (1957 was $35 an oz. and today is $1311.5 an oz) you get $1,859,574.47. If you use farm land ($100 an acre in 1956 and $3000 an acre today) you $1,500,000.

Either of those are interesting results. We live in interesting times.

https://www.reference.com/history/fi...d94e60df41c715

Work began on the predecessor of the video cassette recorder (VCR), known as the videotape recorder (VTR), in 1952, according to the Massachusetts Institute of Technology. The project was developed by the Ampex Corporation; Charles Ginsburg, known as the "father of the video cassette recorder," and his team came up with an idea for a machine which ran tape at slower rates.

The fruit of Ginsburg and his team's labor resulted in the Ampex VRX-1000 videotape recorder. This device was introduced in March of 1956 and cost approximately $50,000.

[oupa]

If you bought a new VCR and a new Sportster in 1957 and did nothing but keep them both in top condition, but "unused" until today, which would be worth more?

Kbetts, THANK YOU, I've been in too many debates about the LiveWire since the launch announcement last month. Your explanation is one of the best. Personally, I'm glad to see the project making progress. It's the beginning of something that's inevitably going to be the norm - for every type vehicle. Whether we like it or not.

[Kbetts]

I remember paying around $400 for a VCR in 1983 in the Army stationed in Italy. That was a LOT of money back then but worth every penny. I had a 15" color tv to play movies on and had Wednesday night at the movies. A dozen or more soldiers most Wednesday were eating popcorn and watching VHS movies and drinking Heinekens. Good times.

Business guys would call that a high COST/BENEFIT ratio.

The Livewire will find it's niche eventually. The costs will drop, the product will improve, new capabilities will be found. All of that will happen exponentially due to synergy and serendipity like a ripple spreading out on a pond.

Good times ahead.