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  #331  
Old 23 Hours Ago
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Let's do friction a little better.

Friction Loss
Friction is the force resisting the relative motion of solid surfaces, fluid layers, and material elements sliding against each other.
There are several types of Friction.

Dry friction resists the relative lateral motion of two solid surfaces in contact.
Dry friction occurs in the oil pump between the gerotors and divider plate(s) / pump housing.
(if you don't oil the gerotors before installing the pump)

Fluid friction describes the friction between layers of a viscous fluid that are moving relative to each other.
Fluid friction is a force that restricts the movement either within itself or of another medium moving through the liquid.
Due to the movement of the molecules inside the fluid, internal friction occurs, and how the fluid interacts with other matter, external conflict occurs.
The internal resistance to flow is termed as viscosity. The less-dense the fluid, the greater is the ease for movement or frictional force.
If there is a wet surface between two thin glass plates, you will notice that plates get stuck and the bottom plate doesn’t fall when you hold only the top one.
When any object is dropped in a fluid, the extent of the splash is depended on the fluid friction of that particular fluid.
You find lighter dust particles move fast on the surface of a flowing river.
This is due to the high-velocity gradient at the top layer of water due to lower dynamic fluid friction at that layer.

Lubricated friction is a case of fluid friction where a lubricant fluid separates two solid surfaces.
Lubricated friction occurs in the oil pump between the divider plate(s) / pump housing and gerotors.
It also occurs between bearings and races.

Skin friction is a component of drag, the force resisting the motion of a fluid across the surface of a body.
A fluid flowing through a pipe contacts the pipe wall.
The pipe wall has surface roughness. The amount of roughness affects the drag on the fluid.
Roughness is measured by the height of the projections sticking up from the pipe wall.
In the valleys between the projections, the fluid moves slowly. Above the projections it moves faster.
The drag between layers tears, or shears, them apart and each layer moves at a different speed.
The shear rate decreases as the distance from the wall increases. The velocity at the wall is zero and fastest at the center.
This means the central core of the fluid exits the pipe first.
So friction loss is the resistance of fluid to flow through a pipe by viscous shear stresses and turbulence that occurs along the internal pipe wall. 53)
These are dependent on the roughness of the pipe material.
This resistance is usually measured in feet or meters of head of the fluid, which is why it is also referred to as the head loss due to pipe friction.
The longer the run of pipe / hose, the higher the affects of friction on head pressure.

Internal friction is the force resisting motion between the elements making up a solid material while it undergoes deformation.
Internal friction is better defined in solid materials such as soil, rock, woods etc and not liquids and gases.
(as in particles of a soil body as two solid blocks sitting on top of each other)


Dry Friction



Skin Friction
The figures in the drawing are just hypothetical numbers.
But the point is that friction lowers incoming pressure to lower pressure on the outlet of a straight run of pipe / hose.


Viscosity and Density Effects
Liquids are categorized by their behaviors when undergoing shear. 56)
Those liquids that have a constant shear rate with change of velocity (like water and oil) are called Newtonian fluids.
Newton first developed the mathematical explanation for the phenomenon.
Those with shear rates that vary with changing velocity (like paint and blood) are Non-Newtonian.
The shear rate is a measure of a fluid’s viscosity or slipperiness.

The density of a fluid affects its viscosity.
Fluids with more mass per unit volume are heavier and require more energy to move them and shear less easily.
A temperature rise decreases the viscosity and density of liquids. The more viscous, or less slippery, a fluid the harder it is to get shearing between layers.
The high viscosity prevents rapid velocity changes occurring between layers.
The sub layer in viscous fluids is thicker than in low viscosity fluids.

Affects of Velocity
At low speeds the whole flow across a pipe is laminar and the fluid slides over itself. As the speed becomes faster, eddies start to form and cross the fluid layers.
A transition from laminar to turbulent flow develops.
At still higher velocities the flow in the core of the pipe becomes turbulent with swirling eddies throughout.
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Reference the XLFORUM'S Sportsterpedia
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  #332  
Old 23 Hours Ago
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Woops, Looks like we got modded, maybe not.
Again, the article for pressure and dynamics is here:
http://www.sportsterpedia.com/doku.p...talk:ref:oil21

The oil pump testing is here:
http://www.sportsterpedia.com/doku.p...talk:ref:oil22

It's all packaged in the SP without the drama.

Last edited by Hippysmack; 23 Hours Ago at 05:37..
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  #333  
Old 14 Hours Ago
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hippysmack View Post
That's good.
You finally did some research. I'm proud.
If you choose to lift your fingers a little more, you can verify everything I've said in this thread.
I'll be waiting.
Could you be a little more condescending?

Are you familiar with the phrase: an exercise in futility.

Take a step or two back and look at what you're doing.
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Last edited by Tomcatt; 14 Hours Ago at 14:40..
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  #334  
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Yeah, actually I could be, a lot.
I didn't start this thread so you could try and destroy everything I say.
I'm doing double duty both here and in SP.
I have a lot on my plate and you decide to negate everything I say without doing your research.
I'm not speculating these things.
I didn't ask your opinion on these subjects.
Yet your opinion is all that matters.
This is not an opinionated thread for me or you.
Get it?
If you are going to say everything I say is wrong then xxxxing prove it or move on jack.
My comment about your research was the softest thing I could come up with at the time.
The word physics (not the definition) is just a phrase unless you back it up with the actual laws of physics.
That was my point.
You looked over that and childishly gave a definition of the word physics.
I think my comment was quite mild.
And yes, I do realize what I'm doing.
I also realize you make me look bad by bringing out the redneck in me.
But, so xxxxing be it. Your making the rules here, I'm just adjusting.
Your asshole comments just make me dig in.
But since I really don't give a shit about my perception here, it doesn't matter.
The merits of this thread is what I care about.
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  #335  
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This thread is just a trip down the rabbit hole. Have at it, you're the one who seems to have something to prove.
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  #336  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomcatt View Post
you're the one who seems to have something to prove.
i count more than one.there's always the one who is obsessed with berating the O.P.
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  #337  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brucstoudt View Post
i count more than one.there's always the one who is obsessed with berating the O.P.
I'm not berating the OP. I am disagreeing with his theories / conclusions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hippysmack View Post
Believe me, I took a week through physics forums and engineering sites to freshen up and my brain temp still hasn't come back to normal.
I want to keep this as simple as possible for us to understand.
But at the same time, I get complicated with it.
As bustert is getting at, the math involved can be subjective to the user which changes the outcome.
It seems a week wasn't enough when math is considered to be subjective.

Last edited by Tomcatt; 2 Hours Ago at 02:37..
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  #338  
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Then by all means, explain what's wrong with my conclusions.
Don't just say I'm wrong.
I've said that many, many times.
Just cause you don't think or like my conclusions does not make them wrong.
SHOW where they are wrong.
Is that a problem?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hippysmack View Post
Then by all means, explain what's wrong with my conclusions.
Don't just say I'm wrong.
I've said that many, many times.
Just cause you don't think or like my conclusions does not make them wrong.
SHOW where they are wrong.
Is that a problem?
That hasn't worked well.

I'll try to just sit back and shake my head as I read.
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The running vacuum measurements I recorded on the return side are lower in practice than they are in operation on the bike (higher to some degree).
The reason is due to less restriction and friction in the bigger line.
I used 3/8" hose throughout but the return passage from the sump is half that size.
But that 50+ cmHg condition still stands until it's proven different.

The reason the oil pump can't suck oil from the front of the sump is due to conservation of energy.
The crankcase air has more area than the return passage.
The opened up air space in the crankcase (in the case there is no oil at the sump return port) increases the area the vacuum is trying to pull from.
And whatever you make up in area you lose in velocity and vise versa since the flow rate is constant from the pump.
The pump at that point has no potential to do work without the assistance from downstroke.
I shot some air from my compressor into the bucket when it was barely with oil and a rag over the top.
No change at the vac gauge but the rag wasn't sealing and most of the air went out past the rag.
I then pointed the air nozzle toward the end of the pickup hose and watched the vac gauge increase.
Yep, I shot positive pressure (indirectly) into the end of the hose, pump running, and the hose gained vacuum.
That is exactly what piston downstroke achieves for the pump.
The ability to do work when the oil is not available at the inlet port.
I've already explained oil push from downstroke.

These are facts.
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