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  #671  
Old 11th August 2019
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Four Speed View Post
If indeed that was the purpose. I suspect it was a consequence of needing to reduce hydrocarbon emissions.
Well if that's indeed the case, then it served no beneficial purpose at all. Just think of all the HP shot up the ass in the name of reducing emissions. Cost me thousands to fix what they broke in my Peterbilt And l had the black smoke rolling out my pipes every time i hit the go pedal once it was fixed to my liking. Added 75 HP and almost a full mpg. Fricken tree huggers.

Last edited by 60Gunner; 12th August 2019 at 00:01..
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  #672  
Old 12th August 2019
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Originally Posted by Four Speed View Post
If indeed that was the purpose. I suspect it was a consequence of needing to reduce hydrocarbon emissions.
I don't claim to be an expert on scavenging, but experts have stated that you need a certain amount of CC pressure in order for scavenging to work. This would apply to stock, fun, or race motors. In 2004 the MoCo upped the performance, compression, and added piston oil cooling to keep things in check (some of this was not new, Buells were basically the guinea pig). Without a doubt this is the best-perf stock Sporty engine ever mass-produced, and with easy potental for more. How do you know that the increased CC pressure wasn't required for these enhancements? (A necessary tradeoff).

The experts also say that wetsumping has *always* been an issue with Sporty's.

Sometimes things are sacrificed to pass emissions, to the detriment of performance (long-term or short-term). The only thing we know done for emissions and hurts performance, is the fact that the vents are ported to the air intake (been that way since early 90's?) Thankfully this is easily fixed with simple mods. But I don't see how you can draw that conclusion for the other venting changes, based on the information we have.

IMHO the myriad changes with the rubbermounts was to give an overall increase in performance and longevity, and the CC venting/breather/etc setup was a part of that. Do you really think they purposely made the venting worse? Actually they did make it better because less oil goes in the intake than any previous design (which means less oil goes out when you vent it external).

They were apparently close to a threshold, so they lowered the recommended oil level to help with that. I'm still not complaining. Then they came out with EFI which performs overall slightly better, and that was time for better scavenging. Now I'm happy that I can buy an OEM-quality oil pump that's backwards-compatible (to the 90's?) to help with scavenging, as apparently with a little more performance you *could* have wetsumping problems.

Not to mention, you can't base statistics on what comes up in forums. HD would never admit their mistakes, be it ever so discretely, but their mistakes are also easily dealt with. The tradeoff is that you get a bike that is basically designed to be upgraded as-you-wish, and is easy to bypass emissions requirements where applicable.

Sorry for the rant.
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  #673  
Old 12th August 2019
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Default Breathers and gaskets

There is an anomaly when it comes to the seal around the stock breather port, under the valve cover.

The valve cover gasket is part of the seal for the breather port.

The pictures shown with the brown breather and no orange seal - that is original configuration. I don't see any potential sealing issues here. There is a thicker area on the gasket that fits down into the rocker-box hole, and a bump to take up extra space next to the umbrella housing and it fits nicely in the hole of the gasket.

The pictures with the white-ish breather are a new breather which comes with the orange seal included. The gasket shown is from a Cometic kit. The Cometic gasket has a hole sized to fit the rocker-box port, much larger than the umbrella valve housing that fits in it. To make this seal properly you would need the orange seal - but you would only have the orange seal if you bought new breathers too. So that is a huge potential leak which would bypass the umbrella, since the only seal would be down-pressure of the umbrella housing against the rubber - but the hold-down bolt for the breather is on the other end of it.

I wonder how many have made this mistake, and blame the umbrellas or something else for breather issues that happened to arise during a rebuild?

Earlier in this project I had purchased new valve cover gaskets from HD, and they are exactly the same as my originals (except brown color, instead of black). So using OEM valve cover gaskets, you would not need the orange seal.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg gasketOEMbottom.jpg (57.0 KB, 10 views)
File Type: jpg gasketOEMtop.jpg (62.8 KB, 9 views)
File Type: jpg gasketcometicbottom.jpg (41.8 KB, 9 views)
File Type: jpg gasketcometictop.jpg (172.0 KB, 8 views)
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  #674  
Old 12th August 2019
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dieselvette View Post
Not understanding why the concern with "too quickly". There is no oil seal on the bearing, just a retainer. Once you've purged a bunch of air out on startup, the only flow is blowby, which from DK's videos appears to be around 1 CFM (but it would be nice to get a real measurement).

Yes, there is a seal on the outside of the bearing.
04 parts book shows it.
That's why I'm trying to figure out exactly how CC gets into the cam chest.


The restriction which is the pinion bearing effectively isolates the cam chest from the violent pressure swings,


What goes out can come back in thru the bearing on upstroke.


I think that puts it al together, unless im missing something?
I still want to know how air gets thru the pinion bearing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 60Gunner View Post
One thing seems certain, the stock set up leaves room for improvement. Increasing cc pressure to help a scavenging issue is like robbing peter to pay paul and has consequences.
The MoCo has been robbing Peter to pay Paul for ages.
Nothing new.
They needed more scavenging since they added the squirters.
If it bugs you that bad, drill some holes in the cam chest wall.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Four Speed View Post
I suspect it was a consequence of needing to reduce hydrocarbon emissions.
How does increasing CC pressure reduce hydrocarbons?
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  #675  
Old 12th August 2019
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Originally Posted by dieselvette View Post
you would need the orange seal - but you would only have the orange seal if you bought new breathers too. So using OEM valve cover gaskets, you would not need the orange seal.
Good information.
Don't know if anybody has missed that or not.
edit:
I added that information on the Evo Crankcase Ventilation page in the pedia.
http://sportsterpedia.com/doku.php/t...gine_breathing

Last edited by Hippysmack; 12th August 2019 at 04:36..
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  #676  
Old 12th August 2019
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12068 Oil seal - #13 on the diagram - is only on the primary side, not the cam side.

Parts on the cam side include 8881 bearing race (#7), 11177A retaining ring (#11), and 24647-87 (p/n varies - sized to fit) bearing (#16). There is no seal. If there was a seal, then I would not have seen air come through it. Also, many experts would be wrong. Also, there would be no place to vent the CC pressure.

The restriction only slows it down - doesn't stop it. Certainly the cam chest pressure still pulsates, but not nearly as much as the CC. But still it would only take a few revolutions on startup to push the air out of the the CC.
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  #677  
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Originally Posted by dieselvette View Post
There is no seal.
Yep, you're right.
The bottom pic is the right side, no seal.
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  #678  
Old 12th August 2019
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hippysmack View Post
Good information.
Don't know if anybody has missed that or not.
edit:
I added that information on the Evo Crankcase Ventilation page in the pedia.
http://sportsterpedia.com/doku.php/t...gine_breathing
Thanks for putting it on the wiki.

After looking at it, I have one correction to make. Shown there also is the 2013 rockerboxes, which has a different rocker gasket. It appears that the orange seal would be required there, as the rocker gasket does not cover the vent port at all. So I'm guessing the solution for a 2004 would be cut the cometic gasket away and install like the 2013 model, rather than installing the orange seal through the cometic like shown in my picture. (This assumes 2013 rockerbox casting is same as 2004, where it meets the breather).

Actually maybe it doesn't matter, since it seals inside the hole and not on top. I did mock it up with the cometic + orange seal as pictured, and it does fit OK.

I wondered why the orange seal was included - it's included because you need it for 2013 models.
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  #679  
Old 12th August 2019
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hippysmack View Post
Good information.
Don't know if anybody has missed that or not.
edit:
I added that information on the Evo Crankcase Ventilation page in the pedia.
http://sportsterpedia.com/doku.php/t...gine_breathing
Every brand gasket I've used had the seal built in. Not sure how anyone could make that mistake.

Emissions being forced on engine makers before the technology was there forced the best one to decided to get out rather than be buried in warranty issues. If you bought an 05 to 08 semi you bought junk. Yet the thought of emission standards being the fault of Harley' s issues seems foreign to some.
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  #680  
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Every brand gasket I've used had the seal built in.
Yet the thought of emission standards being the fault of Harley' s issues seems foreign to some.
Obviously, I don't have a rubbermount or an issue installing the box gaskets since I only have the umbrellas to pop in a hole.
But when installing the 04 up breathers, I can see where it is important to at least bring attention to the fact that the seal should be checked.
That's a win-win.

EPA regs are not foreign by any means.
But to listen to some folks, it is the living end to the machine.
Things change. We are figuring out how to walk thru the weeds.
That's also a win-win.
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