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  #11  
Old 19th August 2019
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Thanks SpaceCoast. I did not know about this pump swap before.
The info on Linns site refers to a 3 nolt mounting modification.

Quote:
three mounting holes on the oil pump, (middle and both rear), just hang in the air, so I just used a bolts and nuts and hold it together, without anchoring it to the case. This doesn't seem to cause a problem.
from an engineering perspective that's simply not a great idea. I'm not aware of problems with the W style oil pump so I'm presuming this mod is mostly to achieve greater oil flow ?

You have to realise that the drive gears will tend to force the oil pump away from the engine. At the least I would have put another bead on the engine and used a 4th hole.
I presume that's what we are talking about here.

Also, I'm not familiar with the underside of the WL engine but on the Sportster that is a milled flat surface. Foe any serious sealing that surface must also be flat.

But with the amount of oil you are losing I would guess something else has to be going on here. Sportster pumps done correctly don't leak at all.

When you install the pump there should be no binding of the drive. There is some slight drag but if everything is lined up perfectly the gears can be turned easily by hand.

While your doing all this work I hope your doing the tower oil seal mod as well.


Some people have the wrong idea about gaskets. They think the thicker the better. That's not the case. Ideally, you don't need a gasket. Two perfectly flat surfaces will seal without one. In the real world we have minor imperfections that we seal with the thinnest gasket possible. That's why the HD pump gaskets are thin paper.

You need to determine exactly where the oil is leaking from. If it's the gear case cover to engine surface that's a whole different problem.

Clean it all completely and then come back in an hour and blow some talcum powder over it to see where it's originating from.
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  #12  
Old 20th August 2019
needspeed needspeed is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ferrous Head View Post
Some people have the wrong idea about gaskets. They think the thicker the better. That's not the case. Ideally, you don't need a gasket. Two perfectly flat surfaces will seal without one. In the real world we have minor imperfections that we seal with the thinnest gasket possible. That's why the HD pump gaskets are thin paper.
I agree.
With the exception of the gasket between the pump and case it's a mistake to use a gasket any thicker than a HD gasket. The pump is designed so that when the gears are installed they are flush (or nearly flush) with the pump body. The gasket thickness is what determines the clearance between the gears and the covers. Use a thicker one and you'll decrease the efficiency of the pump. But try to run with no gasket and it probably will be so tight it won't turn.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ferrous Head View Post
You have to realise that the drive gears will tend to force the oil pump away from the engine.
This is wrong. In pre '77 ironheads the gear on the pinion shaft puts upward pressure on the breather gear while it is turning it.
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  #13  
Old 20th August 2019
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Quote:
This is wrong. In pre '77 ironheads the gear on the pinion shaft puts upward pressure on the breather gear while it is turning it.
When I looked at the pictures of the pump installed on the BSA bike it looked like he was picking p drive from the front of the pinion gear. But now, I'm not so sure. The diagrams don't make this clear and without more information about this set up ......

I was under the impression that the WL pump was driven by the intake cam which is now used for tacho drive. And he makes no mention of boring a hole for the breather tower or the pump drive gear. So I really don't know wnough about this whole setup other than to say if the pump is put together correctly the pump normally won't leak.

We really need to know where the leak is coming from before anyone can suggest a solution.

Will putting a Harley engine into a British frame automatically make it leak oil ?
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  #14  
Old 20th August 2019
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Fiber washers are not a good choice to seal that.
I would use a copper washer to seal oil that is migrating out via a stud.

Tin cover Harleys are the only ones that are near impossible to seal up.
Any other Harley should not leak, any leaks are representative of the lack of mechanical skills or care of the owner.
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  #15  
Old 20th August 2019
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yes, i remember his earlier posts on this projects.
sealing the through hole should be a snap. there are several options but pump not in hand. stud or bolt same issue. i think a compression style would fill the bill. you would have to machine a small well and then used compression grommets with final clamping on the exterior of the pump body.
any jpegs of the pump dis-assy?
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  #16  
Old 23rd August 2019
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spacecoast View Post
NeedSpeed --"the drilling of a mounting bolt hole through the pumps feed channel."

This bothered me as well.

The wildone -- " I might try sticking some fiber washers and/or O rings under the nuts and see what that does"

I thought fiber washer and I also thought maybe crushed copper washers.

The mounting studs. Are they threaded coming through the pump body? I'm thinking if it's threaded where it protrudes for a washer and nut, than you'll have a heck of a time sealing that one stud. Maybe a longer stud so that the shank just needs to be sealed as opposed to the threaded section of the stud. That was an interesting read Wildone, thanks for the link.
Yes, if there was any other way to do this other than having that one mounting stud coming through the feed channel, dick linn, and I, would have done it that way. But..... When you're taking disparate parts and mixing them in order to create something better, such is the case.

Good idea on the copper washers. I made the studs, as per the writeup and the threads basically stop flush with the bottom plate, maybe a little bit before.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ferrous Head View Post
Very obviously I am missing something here. I thought we were dealing with IH pimps which have 5 mounting studs not 4.
Yup, IH pump mounted on a UL, only 4 used.

Quote:
Originally Posted by spacecoast View Post
For his adaptation, only four are used.

He hasn't posted a pic yet, so I'm going off of Linns website.
If he has the room (frame clearance for instance) he would be better off using a bolt at the rear inside mounting hole. As it is now by using studs, I think he's fighting sealing those threads. Like how a wet clutchers primary adjuster leaks.

More interesting info.

http://victorylibrary.com/tech/Frankenstein.htm
I think it will end up being ok. But as these things go, doing it the first time, leads to experiential conclusions that would make it easier/better the next time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ferrous Head View Post
Thanks SpaceCoast. I did not know about this pump swap before.
The info on Linns site refers to a 3 nolt mounting modification.



from an engineering perspective that's simply not a great idea. I'm not aware of problems with the W style oil pump so I'm presuming this mod is mostly to achieve greater oil flow ?

You have to realise that the drive gears will tend to force the oil pump away from the engine. At the least I would have put another bead on the engine and used a 4th hole.
I presume that's what we are talking about here.

Also, I'm not familiar with the underside of the WL engine but on the Sportster that is a milled flat surface. Foe any serious sealing that surface must also be flat.

But with the amount of oil you are losing I would guess something else has to be going on here. Sportster pumps done correctly don't leak at all.

When you install the pump there should be no binding of the drive. There is some slight drag but if everything is lined up perfectly the gears can be turned easily by hand.

While your doing all this work I hope your doing the tower oil seal mod as well.


Some people have the wrong idea about gaskets. They think the thicker the better. That's not the case. Ideally, you don't need a gasket. Two perfectly flat surfaces will seal without one. In the real world we have minor imperfections that we seal with the thinnest gasket possible. That's why the HD pump gaskets are thin paper.

You need to determine exactly where the oil is leaking from. If it's the gear case cover to engine surface that's a whole different problem.

Clean it all completely and then come back in an hour and blow some talcum powder over it to see where it's originating from.
Not sure where you got the 3 bolts? The deal here is 4 studs to mount the IH pump to the 1937 UL case half. I swear, the next person that mentions engineering or engineer or anything of the like, I will (jokingly) make fun of, like hardcore lol. No, just no lol. My first declared major in college was engineering. Figured it would be a given for me since I've always been mechanically inclined, worked in a machine shop for a while, and was no stranger to fabrication or a wrench.... I ended up getting my degree in political science with an emphasis on pre-law and I now work in real estate of all things..... I KNOW guys that are engineers (according to a piece of paper) and they are absolutely clueless...... Frequently, I find myself either cursing and/or hysterically laughing at what an "engineer" decided to do on one thing or another. One of my college era room-mates ended up becoming a mechanical engineer. He asked me how a radiator worked while simultaneously taking advanced thermodynamics classes........ Can you say IRONY?!?! The practical disconnect between theoretical knowledge and ACTUAL real world experience is the problem with most engineers. Now Bill Harley??? I may be a little biased but THAT was a REAL engineer. I would hazard a guess that he didn't have a degree either. Didn't need one as he was a true autodidact. Self taught....

Good point about gaskets. I have these motorized bicycles that I built a few years back, called "gas-bikes".... I block sanded, (lapped)? the jug and head and eliminated the head gasket.... I think some older VWs did not run head gaskets either....


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ferrous Head View Post
When I looked at the pictures of the pump installed on the BSA bike it looked like he was picking p drive from the front of the pinion gear. But now, I'm not so sure. The diagrams don't make this clear and without more information about this set up ......

I was under the impression that the WL pump was driven by the intake cam which is now used for tacho drive. And he makes no mention of boring a hole for the breather tower or the pump drive gear. So I really don't know wnough about this whole setup other than to say if the pump is put together correctly the pump normally won't leak.

We really need to know where the leak is coming from before anyone can suggest a solution.

Will putting a Harley engine into a British frame automatically make it leak oil ?
I don't know about Dick Linns BSA..... I don't know that he used a WL pump on anything either?

I don't know anything about the WL, the BSA or boring holes for breather tower. I think you guys are getting that from the BSA that Dick Linn hot-rodded???? None of that applies here if so.....


Quote:
Originally Posted by ryder rick View Post
Fiber washers are not a good choice to seal that.
I would use a copper washer to seal oil that is migrating out via a stud.

Tin cover Harleys are the only ones that are near impossible to seal up.
Any other Harley should not leak, any leaks are representative of the lack of mechanical skills or care of the owner.
I've been thinking about this and I think you're right, a copper washer would be a better choice so I will try that, IF need be. I've saved a bunch of them from various brake related jobs over the years, I think I might even have some of the correct size in stock.

I'm going to have to respectfully but VERY STRONGLY disagree with you that any Harley shouldn't leak.... Yeah, maybe if you don't ride it much....Ideally perhaps they shouldn't..... But My two Harleys do, and pretty much always have.... Really I think it may be more of a SEEP rather than a LEAK in the case of both my EVO 1200 sporty, AND, my 1937 BTSV.

And in the case of my 1937 BTSV, RIGHT from the Harley Davidson service manual it talks about checking your connecting rod side play with a tape measure....... Yeah..... Sorry, but any engine that is specified by the OEM to check components with a TAPE MEASURE is not exactly what I would call the type of precision that might lend itself to absolutely perfect sealing ability.


I give my machines more care and attention than most, and I can quite easily stand shoulder to shoulder with ANYONE in terms of mechanical skills, I can guarantee you that. However, a little seeping or a small leak is not something I personally will get worked up about, I got more important things to do.

Let me put it this way.... My 03' 1200 sporty SEEPS at the rocker covers, the jug base gaskets, and the pushrod tubes..... But... I don't care?!!!?!?!?! I keep it full of 60 weight oil and it's fine... Hardly worth tearing into it to address something so inconsequential, so, I leave it alone.

A leak is NOT representative of a lack of mechanical skills or care of the owner. It very likely could just be THE NATURE OF THE BEAST!

Quote:
Originally Posted by bustert View Post
yes, i remember his earlier posts on this projects.
sealing the through hole should be a snap. there are several options but pump not in hand. stud or bolt same issue. i think a compression style would fill the bill. you would have to machine a small well and then used compression grommets with final clamping on the exterior of the pump body.
any jpegs of the pump dis-assy?

I think simply tightening the nuts down is all that it needed. Figured it couldn't hurt to post and pick the brains of some of the knowledgeable IH people here. I will continue to update as it continues to come together.



The heat index here a few days ago was 114*F and so working on the bike was not exactly in my top priority list. But cooler weather is on the way and the finish line is in sight.
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  #17  
Old 23rd August 2019
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WildOne, if you have a real hardware store local, not Home Depot or Lowes but one that's well stocked in older plumbing supplies you might try looking at the faucet section for "packing" washers. O-rings will just twist out as your tightening them. A packing washer is designed to crush and SEAL the valve stem from leaking water. Some are lead impregnated jute or some other fiber. Some are newer neoprene or silicone type. I think due to heat the older oil or graphite impregnated packing would work best for you. You can buy it as rope and cut to fit what you need or as a premade washer if your lucky to get the right size.

As for Linns bsa, I think I threw Ferrous a curve ball with that link. I just posted it for the interesting info.
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  #18  
Old 23rd August 2019
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A copper washer is a better choice.
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Old 23rd August 2019
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ryder rick View Post
A copper washer is a better choice.
Copper washer was my first suggestion Rick, but a copper "crush" washer would be best in my opinion.
However, "IF" it's leaking by threads, I think the packing might work better. Wish he would show us a pic.
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  #20  
Old 23rd August 2019
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Not sure why I didn't think of this earlier, but a lot of auto motors use a nylon washer on the oil pan drain. Maybe?
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