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  #21  
Old 23rd August 2019
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OK a copper washer and a new nylock nut
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  #22  
Old 25th August 2019
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OK -I'm a little slow on the uptake. My comments on the engineering side were about the Linn solution *3 studs ?) but anyone willing to try to adapt better parts to an engine is OK with me.
The leak sounds to me more like a gusher. Maybe it's not tht bad.

I would still want to be sure where the leak was coming from before I suggested a solution. Oil leaks can be deceptive.

But if it is coming out of the stud holes I would still think the solution lies in the plate surfaces.
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  #23  
Old 25th August 2019
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many ways to make mods
post a jpeg of the pump
off hand, the pump can be clamped together as a unit before even mounting it.
using compression grommets is a sure-fire way to seal a hole.
if i get time, i'll post a pic for clarification.
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  #24  
Old 28th August 2019
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spacecoast View Post
Not sure why I didn't think of this earlier, but a lot of auto motors use a nylon washer on the oil pan drain. Maybe?
Bad idea.

Use a fiber washer, paper gasket, or metal crush washer.

Plastics tend to creep - that is, deform over time. An annealed aluminum or copper washer will deform as you tighten the bolt, and then hold its shape. The plastic will continue to move a little bit, very slowly, over time.

Which means, the bolt eventually loosens, losing the seal.

I would consider a nylon washer marginal underneath an oil pan bolt, where I'm going to be removing it a few times a year - and completely unacceptable for any other application, where it would have to hold its shape over time.
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  #25  
Old 1st September 2019
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sorry for the delay tooooo many irons in the fire
all you have to do is counter-bore the opening for a small well, then slip a seal like an o-ring that will compress to seal the hole and fastener.


another thing is that you can make a thicker bottom plate for a deeper well or counter-bore. shoot, with the pump side mounted, probably an aluminum bottom plate will hold up nicely.
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  #26  
Old 3rd September 2019
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Little update:

I have run the engine a little bit, still working on ironing out the various bugs. Adjusted the valves, put some new plugs in it. I have to pull the carb back off and scope it out and see what is going on with it as it's pissing gas.

On the oil pump.. I put some copper crush washers under the 4 nuts that bolt the oil pump down and that helped a lot.... I then discovered that the source of the leak appears to be from the bottom plate. I had to make a new one for all of this.... On one spot of the new lower plate, it was touching the case stud, (circled in red)..... This was preventing the plate from being pulled down evenly, and pulled down all the way when the nuts are tightened up....

I popped the plate back off and clearanced the offending area, and lapped the surface real good again before putting it back on.

Then, while tightening down the nuts after clearancing the bottom plate and, adding the crush washers, I broke one of my studs!!!!

Luckily I was able to remove the broken stud... I think the stud broke becasue I might have overtightened it a little bit. I don't make that mistake very often these days but this was maybe an exception..... I made these studs out of roundstock at the hardware store and used a die to cut the threads..... I did this part exactly like Dick does in his writeup for adapting the IH pump to the BTSV.......

But then it dawned on me..... The ironheads used BOLTS instead of studs, so why in the bloody hell did Dick Linn (and myself) make studs instead of just using bolts?!?!?!

I'm sure the material the roundstock is made from is not as good as even a grade 5 or grade 8 bolt............

SO!!! My plan is to ditch the studs altogether and find bolts to attach the pump to the case half.....

I need to find some 1/4-24 bolts that are about 2 3/8 long..... This will be better in every way.... Using bolts instead of studs should make it easier to move the pump body into place with the motor in the frame... And the bolts should be stronger than the cheesy hardware store roundstock that I made the studs from. I have heard that you can call colony and get custom length bolts made.....

Bustert, what a great idea to bore some small holes in the inside of the lower pump cover!!! I might end up doing that while I have it apart again! Maybe do that and throw some type of rubber seal or o-ring in there like you're talking about, AND, still use copper crush washers on the outside.....

Someone mentioned packing washers up above, I grabbed some of those, maybe those are what could go on the INSIDE of the lower pump plate/cover.


Broken stud


Another shot of the broken stud


IH pump mounted on the 80 incher SV


Red circle shows the case stud that was interfering with the lower plate


And here is the bike before I started tearing into it to fix and improve the engine.
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  #27  
Old 3rd September 2019
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There is a very good reason for using studs rather than bolts on any assembly that will mount onto an aluminum casting.
Every time you remove a stud/bolt and then re-install it you are damaging the threads.
Many "mechanics" are going to over tighten any bolts in that location. It's better to snap the bolt/studs than destroy the threads completely.

On that note I use a 1/4 inch drive inch/lb torque wrench to do those nuts/bolts up.
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  #28  
Old 3rd September 2019
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you can apply that crush method through out the pump layers.
offshore we had a 3500psi compressor to use as lift gas and it had a 10 segment water-cooled packing gland and was sealed as such. it was a chore to repack, use a dab of super-glue to hold position when assy the pump.
you need B6 or B7 stud material, cold roll does not cut it as you found out.
studs are a better choice as mr. ferrous pointed out, if set properly, all wear will be on the free end of the stud, many industrial engines are such.
if you have issues with flange seal, a good machine shop can cut a groove to use spagetti o-ring material.
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  #29  
Old 3rd September 2019
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Sportsters used studs until 1971 and then they switched to bolts.

I think in your case the bolts are a better idea for 2 reasons.
It's easier to install the pump with bolts.

And you are trying to seal a oil leak around a fastener at the bottom plate. Easier to seal around the bolt where there are no threads vs the stud that has threads right where to trying to make the seal.
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  #30  
Old 3rd September 2019
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ferrous Head View Post
There is a very good reason for using studs rather than bolts on any assembly that will mount onto an aluminum casting.
Every time you remove a stud/bolt and then re-install it you are damaging the threads.
Many "mechanics" are going to over tighten any bolts in that location. It's better to snap the bolt/studs than destroy the threads completely.

On that note I use a 1/4 inch drive inch/lb torque wrench to do those nuts/bolts up.
Yes, bolts will put more wear and tear on threads, especially soft aluminum. But once this pump is finally situated it won't be coming on and off all the time. Maybe a few times more to finalize everything for the conversion?

I make no claim to be a "mechanic". But I am not unfamiliar with treading lightly with aluminum threads. I still feel mostly the reason one of the studs broke was the inferior metal the round-stock was made from. I didn't even lightly tear up the aluminum threads in the case half, it was just the stud stretching and finally busting. I think what helped me get the broken stud out was the fact that I decided to paste anti-seize on the studs seeing as how they were steel, and the case half aluminum, and, this being, well, you know, an experiment and all.

Riddle me this? What torque spec are you using for such a thing? I will look up the IH torque specs but something in the neighborhood of 120-140 IN/LB sounds in the ballpark.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bustert View Post
you can apply that crush method through out the pump layers.
offshore we had a 3500psi compressor to use as lift gas and it had a 10 segment water-cooled packing gland and was sealed as such. it was a chore to repack, use a dab of super-glue to hold position when assy the pump.
you need B6 or B7 stud material, cold roll does not cut it as you found out.
studs are a better choice as mr. ferrous pointed out, if set properly, all wear will be on the free end of the stud, many industrial engines are such.
if you have issues with flange seal, a good machine shop can cut a groove to use spagetti o-ring material.
I have a friend with a mill and lathe that has helped me get thus for on this conversion, I can probably convince him with some beer to help me cut some sealing wells in the stud holes if need be.

The threads in the case half are in good shape currently. If they ever crap out then I will either drill and tap, or, heli-coil. I don't see that happening though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by needspeed View Post
Sportsters used studs until 1971 and then they switched to bolts.

I think in your case the bolts are a better idea for 2 reasons.
It's easier to install the pump with bolts.

And you are trying to seal a oil leak around a fastener at the bottom plate. Easier to seal around the bolt where there are no threads vs the stud that has threads right where to trying to make the seal.
Makes sense, of the 2 or 3 IH sporty oil pumps I've acquired to modify/practice/study, they all came with what I presume to be the mounting bolts into the case half.

And totally agreed. I think bolts just make the most sense in this particular application.
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