The Sportster and Buell Motorcycle Forum - The XLFORUM®
 

Go Back   The Sportster and Buell Motorcycle Forum - The XLFORUM® > SPORTSTER MOTORCYCLE FORUM > Sportster Motorcycle Era Specific and Model Specific > Ironhead Sportster Motorcycle Talk (1957-1985)
XLF Blogs XLF Arcade XLF Disclaimer/Privacy Statement/Terms Of Use

Ironhead Sportster Motorcycle Talk (1957-1985) For all those that wanna talk about Ironhead Sportster Motorcycles

Active Threads
5 02 Sporty speedometer wiring
Last Post: IXL2Relax
Posted On: 46 Minutes Ago
Replies: 2
Views: 52
0 2002 Sporty backfire through carb
Last Post: IXL2Relax
Posted On: 52 Minutes Ago
Replies: 23
Views: 806
0 Rewire with Thunderheat. Getting horn, back brake and back light, nothing else
Last Post: IXL2Relax
Posted On: 59 Minutes Ago
Replies: 38
Views: 2,289
0 No power, battery is good, fuses are fine, whats wrong?
Last Post: IXL2Relax
Posted On: 1 Hour Ago
Replies: 5
Views: 212
0 Broke my drive belt (Stay With The Belt Or Do A Chain Conversion?)
Last Post: NLXL
Posted On: 1 Hour Ago
Replies: 83
Views: 22,188
0 Dynojet Target Tune and/or autotune with PV
Last Post: NGOT8R
Posted On: 2 Hours Ago
Replies: 3
Views: 77
0 3.5" straight riser
Last Post: whetrick1
Posted On: 2 Hours Ago
Replies: 6
Views: 228
0 2015 sportster charging
Last Post: bustert
Posted On: 3 Hours Ago
Replies: 12
Views: 568
5 HAMMER vs NRHS vs S&S Conversion Kits
Last Post: rejeanprimeau
Posted On: 3 Hours Ago
Replies: 96
Views: 8,524
0 Keep & Kill
Last Post: Graywolf
Posted On: 4 Hours Ago
Replies: 14,650
Views: 819,057
0 Problem with tuning Fp3 tables
Last Post: Glamazon
Posted On: 4 Hours Ago
Replies: 1
Views: 44
0 Hottie of the day, no nudity.
Last Post: Crusty
Posted On: 6 Hours Ago
Replies: 15,393
Views: 1,479,912
0 Iree's late night cafe
Last Post: ~Grind~
Posted On: 7 Hours Ago
Replies: 1,369
Views: 175,357
0 Getting Hammered
Last Post: Tomcatt
Posted On: 9 Hours Ago
Replies: 23
Views: 576
0 Repairing Cylinder Studs/Cases
Last Post: Hippysmack
Posted On: 12 Hours Ago
Replies: 65
Views: 1,163
10 dragpips to muffler pipes
Last Post: smilinbrad
Posted On: 12 Hours Ago
Replies: 2
Views: 117
0 XL IR EFI to those that asked
Last Post: Ferrous Head
Posted On: 12 Hours Ago
Replies: 50
Views: 4,013
0 Which Battery?
Last Post: 60Gunner
Posted On: 13 Hours Ago
Replies: 47
Views: 14,277
0 Official XL Forum Random Image Thread (NO NUDITY!)
Last Post: Graywolf
Posted On: 13 Hours Ago
Replies: 45,718
Views: 7,225,688
0 Leineweber camshaft
Last Post: slojoe631
Posted On: 14 Hours Ago
Replies: 11
Views: 368
0 question for our machinists
Last Post: brucstoudt
Posted On: 14 Hours Ago
Replies: 22
Views: 1,089
0 WTB drag pipes for 2001 sporty
Last Post: Kejobe
Posted On: 14 Hours Ago
Replies: 1
Views: 84
0 Sportster Crankcase Pressure / Engine Breathing / Wetsumping and Mods
Last Post: 60Gunner
Posted On: 15 Hours Ago
Replies: 906
Views: 42,237
0 Wire Tuck with No Tank Lift and No Rewire
Last Post: TheBreeze
Posted On: 15 Hours Ago
Replies: 8
Views: 552
0 A Day in the Life...
Last Post: DK Custom
Posted On: 15 Hours Ago
Replies: 674
Views: 83,195
0 piston rings
Last Post: Nitro57xl
Posted On: 16 Hours Ago
Replies: 3
Views: 174
0 Daily updates by email not working
Last Post: Folkie
Posted On: 18 Hours Ago
Replies: 19
Views: 717
0 more stumble on cold start
Last Post: smm1200
Posted On: 18 Hours Ago
Replies: 1
Views: 120
0 Powerraythor conversion
Last Post: saddlebagrail
Posted On: 18 Hours Ago
Replies: 48
Views: 2,196
0 Fat Ironhead?
Last Post: NLXL
Posted On: 18 Hours Ago
Replies: 2
Views: 150
More...
Members Birthdays
mdgtmstng (66), robc (54), 09 sporty (51), bimmer10 (49), DougZ (46), mtntrout, JTedd9 (44), blueoval78 (41), Everett (39)
View Poll Results: Cylinder Head Temp, What is too hot
350 deg F 24 32.88%
400 deg F 19 26.03%
450 deg F 19 26.03%
somewhere over 500 deg F 11 15.07%
Voters: 73. You may not vote on this poll

Sponsored Links
Reply
 
Share Thread Tools Display Modes
  #11  
Old 31st August 2008
Fe Head Fe Head is offline
Senior Chief Know It All 2nd Class
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Terra Firma
Posts: 1,450
Sportster/Buell Model: XLH
Sportster/Buell Year: 1979
Reputation: 4670
Fe Head is just really niceFe Head is just really niceFe Head is just really niceFe Head is just really niceFe Head is just really niceFe Head is just really niceFe Head is just really niceFe Head is just really niceFe Head is just really niceFe Head is just really niceFe Head is just really nice
Default

Both Infra-red and thermo-couples are very difficult to calibrate as they are notoriusly non-linear in their response outputs.

Thermocouples produce very low voltages and need to have short leads that are shielded (to picking up avoid stray voltage from the high tension leads ) as well as having their bimetalic tips silver soldered to the head before they can be considered reliable. Their accuracy is affected by the cold junction's reference and the choice of complex curve fitting mathematical functions needed in order to be NIST approved. They can be point calibrated over a very narrow range using common elements in an electrically noise free environment.

As an example place the CHT sensor in boiling water - at sea level it should be exactly 212 degrees F. The voltage produced at this temperature is only about 4 milli-volts. It is a little lower at higher elevations. Next the calibration can be done using other pure elements like Tin which melts at 450 degrees F. Even placing it along side the temperature probe in household oven will give some comparisons at the 300 - 400 degree F range.

Measuring the cylinder head's temperature IMO is best used as a way to monitor the changes that occur rather than determining the absolute value.

It seems that while water will easliy boil off a cylinder head it will not melt tin. The operating temperatures of most ironheads range typically around the 300 -325 dgree F.

The quickest and surest way to cool down the rear cylinder is to take thin sheets of pure copper and press strips over and inbetween the iron fins making each fin taller and increasing the heads surface area and rate of conduction. Much like the radiator effect. These can even be sprayed black to make them blend in better.

Cheers;
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 31st August 2008
billeuze's Avatar
billeuze billeuze is offline
XL FORUM TEAM MEMBER
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Coastal BC
Posts: 1,222
Sportster/Buell Model: shovester project
Sportster/Buell Year: 80s
Other Motorcycle Model: Kawasaki kz440
Other Motorcycle Year: 1983
Reputation: 25925
billeuze is a name known to allbilleuze is a name known to allbilleuze is a name known to allbilleuze is a name known to allbilleuze is a name known to allbilleuze is a name known to allbilleuze is a name known to allbilleuze is a name known to allbilleuze is a name known to allbilleuze is a name known to allbilleuze is a name known to all
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fe Head View Post
The quickest and surest way to cool down the rear cylinder is to take thin sheets of pure copper and press strips over and inbetween the iron fins making each fin taller and increasing the heads surface area and rate of conduction. Much like the radiator effect. These can even be sprayed black to make them blend in better.

Cheers;
You know, I wondered about doing just that. Do you know of anyone actually doing this? and the results?. I was wondering how to fasten copper to the iron - mechanically with bolts? or... ? We'd have to ensure good contact between the copper and iron, maybe use a heat transferring compound like what's used to mount transitors to heatsinks. I also don't know if there would be a problem with different expansion rates of copper and iron that would cause the copper to deform and separate from the iron if not mechanically fastened well enough.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 31st August 2008
billeuze's Avatar
billeuze billeuze is offline
XL FORUM TEAM MEMBER
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Coastal BC
Posts: 1,222
Sportster/Buell Model: shovester project
Sportster/Buell Year: 80s
Other Motorcycle Model: Kawasaki kz440
Other Motorcycle Year: 1983
Reputation: 25925
billeuze is a name known to allbilleuze is a name known to allbilleuze is a name known to allbilleuze is a name known to allbilleuze is a name known to allbilleuze is a name known to allbilleuze is a name known to allbilleuze is a name known to allbilleuze is a name known to allbilleuze is a name known to allbilleuze is a name known to all
Default

Hmm. I did a quick search on adding copper fins to iron heads. didn't find anything on motorcycles but interestingly, chevrolet started doing this in 1923. It was a bomb, released to the public without adequate testing. One of the problems they had was fins falling off due to different expansions rates.

I wonder how brazing copper onto the fins would work.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 31st August 2008
Fe Head Fe Head is offline
Senior Chief Know It All 2nd Class
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Terra Firma
Posts: 1,450
Sportster/Buell Model: XLH
Sportster/Buell Year: 1979
Reputation: 4670
Fe Head is just really niceFe Head is just really niceFe Head is just really niceFe Head is just really niceFe Head is just really niceFe Head is just really niceFe Head is just really niceFe Head is just really niceFe Head is just really niceFe Head is just really niceFe Head is just really nice
Default

The idea is to make pleats/folds using the thin copper sheeting and have the roots of the pleats with fitted with slits or sets of small holes so they can be silver soldered to the non finned areas on the heads.

Expansion differentials are not a problem when only the smaller section of the root is held tight against the cast iron. The important part in silver soldering is using the proper flux. The copper will be conducting the heat away 5 times faster than the iron and 10 times better than steel so the surface area of the copper fin is important after the root areas are silver soldered to the flat valley portions of the cylinder's head.

Again the differential expansions will not pose a problem when just the base or root area is fixed while folding the finned portion over the raised head fins and not attching them but pressing these areas tightly to the iron fins.

It is best to use MAP gas instead of propane and to work outside when silver soldering as the fumes contain cadmium and should not be inhaled.

Good luck should you try it out on the rear cylinder.

Cheers;
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 19th December 2008
IronMick's Avatar
IronMick IronMick is offline
Rider Of The Iron Steed
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: London, ON Canada
Posts: 32,096
Sportster/Buell Model: XLH
Sportster/Buell Year: 1978
Reputation: 1002828
IronMick has a reputation beyond reputeIronMick has a reputation beyond reputeIronMick has a reputation beyond reputeIronMick has a reputation beyond reputeIronMick has a reputation beyond reputeIronMick has a reputation beyond reputeIronMick has a reputation beyond reputeIronMick has a reputation beyond reputeIronMick has a reputation beyond reputeIronMick has a reputation beyond reputeIronMick has a reputation beyond repute
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by IronMick View Post
Last year I purchased on eBay an NOS OEM Harley Davidson Cyl Hd Temp gauge part number 75000-69A. Hottest i have seen it is just over 350`. Most of the time on the hiway it is reading quite low, about 250`. The hotter temps are in city riding. Hottest reading was when my electronic ignition was failing.
UPDATE: Had the heads cleaned up, valve stems honed, front cylinder head temp now reads between 300`F and 350`F according to the NOS HD cyl hd temp gauge; same with an IR thermometer. I expect this is because the heads and valve stems, having all the carbon deposits etc cleaned out, transfer heat out thru the fins better.

Test run was in -5`C weather. Have to see what will happen in the summer riding in 30`C weather.
__________________
Mick
IronHead Forever!

Visit Mick's WebSite
[And Check Out My Autobiog]
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 20th December 2008
11B40 11B40 is offline
XL FORUM TEAM MEMBER
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 914
Reputation: 44096
11B40 is a splendid one to behold11B40 is a splendid one to behold11B40 is a splendid one to behold11B40 is a splendid one to behold11B40 is a splendid one to behold11B40 is a splendid one to behold11B40 is a splendid one to behold11B40 is a splendid one to behold11B40 is a splendid one to behold11B40 is a splendid one to behold11B40 is a splendid one to behold
Default If your cylinderhead temperature is too high

I'd look at my timing and mixture. Old XLCH are timed at 45-48 degrees before TDC and that was based on leaded gas. We used to time them even further advanced for performance. We ran them very rich with high octane gas. With today's modern fuel (Which I hesitate to call gasoline) and smogged factory engines, a big spark advance will raise temperatures. The other side of that coin is being beyond TDC will also cause problems. The spark plug can also be a heat source. Sportsters can run lots of spark plugs. Champion N4-6, H8 etc. mimic HD plugs if I recall, but for rich running oil users, people would put in long reach J12Y and similar Chevy V8 plugs. These stick well down into the combustion chamber and promote heat. So if you are too hot you are probably too lean, and check the timing. Incoming fuel is a real source of cooling for these engines and if they are on the ragged edge in fuel and timing, they idle great, run so-so but are always on the verge of holing a piston or worse. I personally wouldn't get too wrapped around the axle about perceived high temperatures and try cooling tricks, these engines have a 100 year history of working fine. I've had trick heads with half of the cooling fins off, so they're hot? Who cares? When they seize or start cracking, I'll start to worry.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 20th December 2008
racerwill's Avatar
racerwill racerwill is offline
Senior Master Custom Bike Builder
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: pit road.....
Posts: 6,394
Sportster/Buell Model: XLRR
Sportster/Buell Year: 91
Sportster/Buell Model #2: XLH1100
Sportster/Buell Year #2: 80
Reputation: 471299
racerwill has a reputation beyond reputeracerwill has a reputation beyond reputeracerwill has a reputation beyond reputeracerwill has a reputation beyond reputeracerwill has a reputation beyond reputeracerwill has a reputation beyond reputeracerwill has a reputation beyond reputeracerwill has a reputation beyond reputeracerwill has a reputation beyond reputeracerwill has a reputation beyond reputeracerwill has a reputation beyond repute
Default

500 degrees is definitely hotter than you want......cylinder head temps should be 300-400 degrees....

2 things that could result in high readings are lean mix and temp sensor too close to exhaust port

Ww
__________________
master wizard
Super Moderator
RIP Mr Jimi

Blue Locktite..... I put that sh*t on everything.....

"never trade the thrills of living for the security of existence"

"All The Way"
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 20th December 2008
Campsurf's Avatar
Campsurf Campsurf is offline
Senior Chief Know It All
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 886
Sportster/Buell Model: XLCH
Sportster/Buell Year: 1970
Other Motorcycle Model: Triumphs
Other Motorcycle Year: 1964
Reputation: 4981
Campsurf is just really niceCampsurf is just really niceCampsurf is just really niceCampsurf is just really niceCampsurf is just really niceCampsurf is just really niceCampsurf is just really niceCampsurf is just really niceCampsurf is just really niceCampsurf is just really niceCampsurf is just really nice
Default

and two more things that can cause the temp to rise... intake leaks and no air flowing over an air-cooled engine... I have had the front of my exhaust pipes glowing orange in the dark...

Jim
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
  #19  
Old 21st December 2008
Hopper's Avatar
Hopper Hopper is offline
Senior Master Custom Bike Builder
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Australia
Posts: 9,366
Sportster/Buell Model: XLCH 1000
Sportster/Buell Year: 1977
Sportster/Buell Model #2: 75 motor in Norton frame.
Other Motorcycle Model: 42WLA 45, Harton, Narley
Other Motorcycle Year: 1942
Reputation: 256674
Hopper has a brilliant futureHopper has a brilliant futureHopper has a brilliant futureHopper has a brilliant futureHopper has a brilliant futureHopper has a brilliant futureHopper has a brilliant futureHopper has a brilliant futureHopper has a brilliant futureHopper has a brilliant futureHopper has a brilliant future
Default

In Canada's climate - specaily this time of year - methinks hot cylinder heads is the least of your problems.

If your mixture is right, your timing is right, your oil is right for the temps, these old engines will just keep on going.

I'd be more worried about ice on the road, or carb icing up etc. Godamn eskimoes are crazy riding about the place right now.
__________________
In theory there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice there is.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 13th July 2010
XLFREAK XLFREAK is offline
Flat Track Champion
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 650
XLFREAK is an unknown quantity at this pointXLFREAK is an unknown quantity at this pointXLFREAK is an unknown quantity at this pointXLFREAK is an unknown quantity at this pointXLFREAK is an unknown quantity at this pointXLFREAK is an unknown quantity at this pointXLFREAK is an unknown quantity at this pointXLFREAK is an unknown quantity at this pointXLFREAK is an unknown quantity at this pointXLFREAK is an unknown quantity at this pointXLFREAK is an unknown quantity at this point
Default

I recently purchased and installed a Dakota Digital SpeedoTach on my 1200N. One of the things it does is monitor cyl head temp through the ECM. My temps have been in mid-300's most of the time but will climb to a little over 400 while on the freeway or 'other' high speed riding. And when I slow or stop, the temp will immediately drop to mid to low 300's again. Hope this is helpful even though this might be the wrong thread.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



Sponsored Links
All times are GMT +1. The time now is 15:28.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
XL Forum® - Linson Media LLC