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  #341  
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explain how do we test an oil line????
a good reading for you is the "API" which is the accepted safe practices adopted by the american petroleum institute. while this is not written law, the epa and mms will issue citations based off of it.
i am glad you resolved the issue with the flooded suction side, more realistic but still there is a lot you have not addressed and never will be able, back to the water well pump.
what are you really seeing imploding or exploding gases?????
then there is the issue of the oil itself, new vs used changes dramatically even with short service hours, then there is the additive packages which varies widely.
then there is the issue with: there are 3 ways that gaseous existence can display itself and varies with the oil types and chemical compositions.
all this proves your calculus is near spot on but all moot, yes, MOOT, since it does not reflect real world conditions.
the pressures in the engine has been a bone of contention in many threads but it must by physics as you say be the law of averages. that said, i doubt seriously that the hd engine produces enough sustained vacuum to effect the oil at all. it is DIFFERENTIAL that moves oil. impingement is likely to be the major factor.

Last edited by bustert; 1 Day Ago at 22:30..
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  #342  
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I didn't really want to have to look up something else.
Thought maybe you had something quick in the memory bank.
We pumped up lines with water to 1-1/2 times working pressure with both ends capped off for 24 hours and a gauge or recorder attached.
Reason I asked involves pressure but I'm still working on that (don't want to pressure test the Sportster, just a question).

I don't think I resolved an issue, just moved the hoses around.
I wanted to check pump potentials all ways I could.

What am I seeing where? We back to crankcase vacuum?
But, but.... What IS vacuum?
A low pressure area that is filled by atmosphere.
The low pressure is created by upstroke and it's created by the opening point of the gerotors.
Atmospheric pressure pushes oil to the low pressure zone.
So is it truly vacuum or atmosphere that's grinding at you?
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  #343  
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hummmm?????
vacuum
what is the diff between a high pressure atmospheric system and a low system?? are there similarities???

the sportster engine is not capable of sustaining a large enough vacuum to do much of anything. if you were to put a transducer and recorder on the engine, the graff would plot out banana shape. if you plot each side to its opposite, they would cancel out so the only thing left is the peaks where diff'l is the greatest.
liken it to an electrical current. 12vdc on one end and 12dc on the other, no flow. BUT add a diff'l be it + or - then flow will occur. matter of fact, this principle is used as positioning tool.
back to the water well. yep the pump performs as the mfg says per spec, BUT change depth or jet pressure/volume or water table level and then it is a new ball park.

side note: is there a possibility of cavitation not within the pump??????
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Not sure where you are at.
Fluid dynamics follows low, high and in-betweens. Parameters change, but similarities are there.
Extremes on both ends.
Why the question?

It doesn't take a high vacuum to affect oil in some way.
I've already shown in video that vacuum and how much (for my test rig) is present in the oil lines from the pump.
At a point, vacuum did start pulling air out of the oil.
This is non deniable proof of that.

We have both shown static vacuum in slack tube testing.
Remember, static is residual pressure during flow pressure events.
Static is not the only pressure involved (or seen) by the oil.
You don't want to believe vacuum has anything to do with the oil.
But HD has already weighed in on that.
I have weighed in that. Science has weighed in on that.
Now to what degree, I don't have that answer. But vacuum plays a part in the oiling and breathing of a Sportster engine.

Now what is it you really want to know?
What is your reasoning for saying the sportster engine is not capable of sustaining a large enough vacuum to do much of anything?
Do you have any proof of that? Anything at all.
I'm asking cause I'd like to hear the reasoning, not just an opinion.

Side note:
Of course there is.
A crimped feed hose from the tank can cause cavitation.
Too high of oil temp can cause cavitation.
I've already been thru causes and symptoms of cavitation.
State the point?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bustert View Post
i bought a water pump for my water well from sears and it says 11 gallons per minute capacity so i hook it up and yep, it comes close, BUT, what have i proved?????
Now I understand references to the water pump.

What have I proved? Just off the top of my head;
1. The flow rates on the bench test basically match the CC testing on the gerotors.
2. The pump cannot suck oil from the crankcase if the oil is not ushered there by downstroke.
3. The pump exerts a vacuum on both the feed and return lines blowing away the misdirecting phrase in the FSMs that the pump is gravity fed.
4. The pump is very capable of sucking oil from the oil tank if you lower the tank on a Sportster.
5. There is a hellofalota air that comes up the return line from the sump to the pump.
6. Restrictions create circulation pockets on the downstream of the restriction.
7. Restrictions lower flow by lowering motor speed. This translates to the Sportster by saying restrictions in the oil chain rob HP from the motor. The pump RPM stays the same but it is working harder due to restrictions which pulls on the pinion shaft/wheels more. This also adds heat to the motor/oil.
8. Higher RPM creates higher vacuum on the return passage/inlet to the pump.
9. The pump was redesigned several times to reduce vacuum and friction on the return oil from the sump.
10. The act of squeezing the return line / feed line to the pump (restricting hose size) allows the pump to pull air out of the oil at the restriction.
11. Plexiglass makes a bad test bed for oil pump testing.
12. Loose hose clamps can allow the pump to suck in air to the pump / motor without you even knowing it.

More on friction:
The greater the friction (and viscosity) the greater the resistance (opposition) to motion.
Pressure loss in a pipe, which are associated with frictional energy loss per length of the pipe, depends on the flow velocity, pipe length, pipe diameter, and a friction factor based on the roughness of the pipe and whether the flow is laminar or turbulent (i.e., the Reynolds number of the flow).
Although the pressure loss represents a loss of energy, it does not represent a loss of total energy of the fluid.
The total energy of the fluid is conserved as a consequence of the law of conservation of energy.
In reality, the head loss due to friction results in an equivalent increase in the fluid’s internal energy (temperature increases).


Last edited by Hippysmack; 1 Day Ago at 04:17..
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  #345  
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all you proved was you saw bubbles, does not explain how they got there, you do not even know if they are imploding or exploding. there is a BIG DIFF!!!
why all the pipe theory since you are dealing with the pump????
even a car engine needs help, hence a vacuum supply.
is there a possibility of cavitation besides the pump???? within the engine????
is it possible for bubbles to be pressured out and the immediately pulled back in????
i admire your efforts but so far all we know is, well yes, it does pump oil.
the ole saying "what happens in vegas, stays in vegas". apply that to your pump.
also, what type of gaseous bubble source are they, remember there are three ways for gaseous elements to be entrained in the oil, all diff and some mixed.
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Why all the fluid dynamics?
Because these things do affect the oiling system.
The pressure rises when you pull the throttle but that doesn't mean you are pushing full volume thru the motor.
It also doesn't mean anything about slippage.
I would think it would take a blockage of sorts to cavitate the feed passage in the motor.
The restrictions are pre-determined to run without cavitation.
Keeping me on my toes is one thing but denying the facts above are futile.
Just because they happened on a test bench doesn't mean they never happen in operation.
You know, a certified welder will never be able to approve a shade tree weld that never breaks.
Is that the case here?

You tell me about the stages of bubbles. Don't ask me to uncover mysteries of the universe all by myself.
You act like you know everything but so far all you've given is "why don't I know everything".
Stop asking questions and start giving answers and I think I'll learn more.
It's really not fair to downplay what I've done so far.
I don't have professional equipment that maybe you are used to using.
That doesn't make my efforts any less worthy.
I'm asking you to put up or shut up.
Up to it?
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  #347  
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I do know how the bubbles got there.
Initially, they were just air bubbles that couldn't leave as they got caught in the recirculation zone past the tee for the vac line.
BUT if you paid attention, you'd see in the video where I clamped the hose with seemingly nothing but oil in the line, bubbles appeared out of nowhere.
edit:
This video @ 1:29, below the pliers, no air. Above the pliers air pocket forms cause of the restriction.
http://www.sportsterpedia.com/lib/ex...hippysmack.png
In the video, the bubbles got smaller as speed was increased, just as they should.

Small amounts of air are traveling with the oil. The restriction pulled the bubbles out of the oil stream.
Yes I do know that they are expanding. It's just air.
It's not vapor. If it were vapor, it'd have time to reform into the oil before it got to the pump.
Pipe theory as you put it is part of this thread.
I've been doing mods on the test bed that involved sealing so in my spare time, I went back into fluid dynamics.

The point of that video is that air that I created due to both the restricted tee and crimping down the hose at different speeds, that is what happens when oil is pulled from the sump, past the hard 90 degree bend and sent thru the horizontal passage to the pump.
Because the passage carries both air and oil, air will get caught up in the recirculaion zones in the return path just like in the video.
The duck bill is a collection chamber (for coalescence) to allow oil to settle down before going into the pump.
Any turbulence at the inlet hole will be greater once it gets in the return cavity.
There IS more vacuum inside the pump than in the return passage.
The video shows grinding noises at high speed.
These grinding noises are synonymous with cavitational potential.

Last edited by Hippysmack; 16 Hours Ago at 03:48..
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  #348  
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This......

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hippysmack View Post
….. is tied to this.
The higher the vacuum from the pump, the higher the friction on oil flow in the sump passage to the pump.
Higher friction slows the flow and bustert, you mentioned before about whether the cavities are getting filled.
Slowing the flow due to too much friction will not fill the cavities fully.

I have the 98 pump mounted but I'll eventually have a pic of all the return inlet cavities together.
The bigger inlet hole slows down the oil coming from the sump to pump.
Slows the affects of friction by lower speed via lowering vacuum.
Seems pump manufs are anal about hose size on the incoming inlet to the pump due to the increased speed and thus FRICTION.

At the same time, the 98 pump got a smaller inlet cavity (which increases vacuum inside the pump).
So they increased vacuum on the sump port (increasing internal vacuum)then lowered that vacuum on the return passage itself from the sump.
The sump inlet cavity had to get smaller so they could split the vacuum for the cam port inlet.
The gerotor's max vacuum capability (before cavitating) had to have something to do with that.
I'm hoping I can show that in testing.
Then the cam port inlet cavity is smaller than the sump port cavity.
I can tell you now that that little cam port inlet at the top of the pump is one large sucker.
I've got oil on both sides of the cam box inlet but no oil in the inlet hole itself to speak of during operation.
It's sucking the oil in so hard, I had to raise the supply bucket 3-4 feet above the pump to have enough supply line flow keep it from singing due sucking more oil than could be delivered.
Just haven't gotten the flow adjusted yet, every time I cut off the drill, the bathtub floods.
I can't plug off the cam port like I wanted to.
I'm getting tons of air in the return line due to the cam port being open and basically off/on dry.
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really have not looked at the video, of no interest since it proves nothing. this is not real world. gaseous is gaseous air or no matter what.
so answer the "?" are they imploding or exploding or combination there of. the eye can see about 40 micron size.
you cannot prove the source since you do not know what the 3 forms of gaseous situations that can be there.
there are toooo many variables that you cannot account for. the ole adage is " if one part of the equation is false then the whole theory is false.
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Ok, it appears to be air.
If it's gaseous, it's not reforming, it's being carried thru the pump and back to the bucket.

That's great.
You out here making claims about my little factory here and don't even view the videos??
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