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  #21  
Old 27th April 2020
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Or you get a Clymer book for SBCs and the torque specs for V-8s are on one page, then the wind blows to the next page for V-6 specs.
Yep, the V-6 head bolt torques about 20 or so more ft/lb than the V-8.
Back to the store for more head bolts.

I'll say this.
I have NEVER been so careful about wrenching on V-8s as I do with my Sporty.
The aluminum is not forgiving as cast iron is.
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Last edited by Hippysmack; 27th April 2020 at 22:02..
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  #22  
Old 27th April 2020
John Harper John Harper is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hippysmack View Post
That being said, there is no data saying more people break bolts with a torque wrench than without one.
That's just hype.
Not hype at all. I've read many posts about people breaking bolts with a torque wrench, on this forum and hdforums.com as well. I also read about the recent cracked filter housing. I don't know if you want to call it "anecdotal" evidence, but it ain't fake news, a conspiracy, or hype. It's a cumulative knowledge of what I've read and recall. Iron Mike just posted another piece of "anecdotal" evidence on this thread. Not hype IMO.

John
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  #23  
Old 27th April 2020
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What is it with the torque settings that Harley give out anyway? why not one setting rather than between A and B
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  #24  
Old 28th April 2020
John Harper John Harper is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bimbo View Post
What is it with the torque settings that Harley give out anyway? why not one setting rather than between A and B
Maybe it's to test our reading comprehension skills?

I agree, it certainly does not help things. Another contributing factor for sure.

John
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  #25  
Old 28th April 2020
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Ok, Let's get real.
People who don't know how to use a torque wrench end up breaking things.
The 1/4" clicker type torque wrenches are junk.
The spring tension is too slight to be accurate every time.
They don't work well when used upside down. They don't click at all on the lower end of the scale (where you need it most).
They are not consistent therefore they are not trust worthy therefore they are junk.
The 3/8" torque wrenches are mostly junk below 40 or so ft/lbs.
The lower end of their scale is half assed at best.

I have never, ever broken a bolt, stripped a head while using these beam wrenches.
I dare anyone to try and break a bolt with a beam wrench, using proper torque specs and respecting thread dressing pre-lube.
Now with that said,
How many people have broken things not knowing the proper torque spec or being able to discuss thread lube pre-load in the threads you've cited.?
(edit: and the proper torque sequence)
You don't know.... and neither do I.
How many have blamed the torque wrench since they don't want to be picked on?
You don't know... and neither do I.

I find it ridiculous that anyone would suggest torque wrenches break anything.
There is a hand pulling that wrench.
If you don't trust the wrench, don't use it.
If you don't know how to use the wrench, ask somebody before using it.

John, it's not the wrench, it's the wrencher.
The 'feel' is what you use when the clicker decides not to click.
Some have a need to hear the click or keep pulling.
I can't help that.
If it don't 'feel' right, it probably isn't.

How old do you think these wrenches are?
Never need to recalibrate, always faithful.
I've got a shelf full clicker type torque wrenches, two I welded up for breaker bars.





Quote:
Originally Posted by bimbo View Post
What is it with the torque settings that Harley give out anyway? why not one setting rather than between A and B
The low end of the spec is what you should shoot for.
Some say the low end is dry torque, and the upper end is wet torque.
But that isn't true.
The range is a guide. All torque specs have a range. The MoCo didn't invent the range.
You cannot torque every bolt exactly the same no matter how hard you try.
There will be an average of torque value on each and they will all be similar in value but it's not possible to achieve with deathly accurate results.

Officially, from the handbook regarding the range:
When the nut on a bolt is tightened, an initial tensile load is placed on the bolt that must be taken into account in determining it's safe working strength or external load-carrying capacity. The total load on the bolt theoretically varies from a maximum equal to the sum of the initial and external loads (when the bolt is absolutely rigid and the parts held together are elastic) to a minimum equal to either the initial or external loads, whichever is the greater (where the bolt is elastic and the parts held together are absolutely rigid). No material is absolutely rigid, so in practice the total load values fall somewhere between these maximum and minimum limits, depending upon the relative, elasticity of the bolt and joint members.

Last edited by Hippysmack; 29th April 2020 at 01:21..
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  #26  
Old 28th April 2020
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In the scenario in my post, clearly any type of torque wrench would not have helped this guy.
Torque wrenches dont break bolts..
People break bolts.

Im a member of the NRA and the...NBA?? We share some similar beliefs.
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  #27  
Old 28th April 2020
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iron mike View Post
in the scenario in my post, clearly any type of torque wrench would not have helped this guy.
Torque wrenches dont break bolts..
People break bolts.

Im a member of the nra and the...nba?? We share some similar beliefs.
+1
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  #28  
Old 28th April 2020
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From the machinist handbook on torque:

Bolts are often tightened by applying torque to the head or nut, which causes the bolt to stretch.
The stretching results in bolt tension or preload, which is the force that holds a joint together.
Torque is relatively easy to measure with a torque wrench, so it is the most frequently used indicator of bolt tension.
Unfortunately, a torque wrench does not measure bolt tension accurately, mainly because it does not take friction into account.
The friction depends on bolt, nut, and washer material, surface smoothness, machining accuracy, degree of lubrication, and the number of times a bolt has been installed.


There are many bolts on a Sportster that the MoCo writes in the FSM to discard and replace them with new ones.
How many of those do we reuse anyway?
How many of those have been tightened too much before, that now seem to be breaking?
How many times do you have a bolt slap dripping with oil and turn it in and wrench it up?


Dry threads create friction and add drag to the threads as they turn.
(edit- not to mention the possible damage / distortion to the threads themselves)
It takes more torque to overcome the drag.
So you would normally turn a bolt from here to there with lightly oiled threads at say 10 in/lbs.
With dry threads, it may take 15 in/lbs to go the same distance.
With heavily oiled threads, the oil gets hung up in the threads and chances are there is more oil than what can fill the valley between the hole and bolt threads as they mesh.
The result is what we call hydrolock.
Until the excess oil is purged from the threads, they also create drag.
It's nearly impossible to purge the oil if it's thick. (20W50) ?
Same as with dry threads, the extra 'pre-load' has to be added in.
The trouble with that is nobody wants to give out wet thread torque specs due to more variables and responsibility afterwards.

However, we do have wet torque specs in the Sportsterpedia graciously allowed by Allied Systems.
http://www.sportsterpedia.com/doku.p..._lubed_threads

Getting to the 'feel' part, an overly oiled bolt or with compromised threads can easily 'feel' like it is tight enough.
But the reality may be the oil has locked into the threads, later it came loose.

These are just some of the things, maybe questions to ask, when considering whether it's the wrench or wrencher.
These are also things that most don't consider before hunkering down on a hand wrench or torque wrench.

Of course, one could break out a strain gage or measure the change in length (elongation) of the bolt, using a micrometer or dial indicator.
But the torque wrench is usually dumbed down enough for my purposes.

Last edited by Hippysmack; 28th April 2020 at 23:20.. Reason: Moved charts, replaced link
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  #29  
Old 28th April 2020
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not the entire whole story
beam wrench must be used properly, angle of the dangle is most important, like a dingle berry as to where it may fall.
in the commercial world, at least where i have come from, the fastener itself is an issue, hence, NO china fasteners are allowed, period!!!!
on the floaters i worked on, a junk 20 ton anchor shackle will snap like balsa wood.
torque values are limited by the fastener but the value is determined by the material it is used on. the use of washers also changes things. of note, the split ring lock washer is basically a spacer, i can tell some bad stories on these things!
i have no issues with my snapon 1/4 clicker, but you cannot hear the click, ATTENTION must be paid, you cannot get a beam into blind/tight quarters.
the new wrenches shine of hope with visual and audio indicators. hydraulic wrenches are very accurate but having to supply a back up is sometimes a cumbersome task.
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  #30  
Old 28th April 2020
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No, not whole story.
You're right, there are limitations to tight quarters.
There are washers that are not the same height all around the top that will bend the bolt head to the low spot when the head twists.
There are substandard bolts that don't have the correct metals in them.
The grade of bolt determines that but chinesium copies are 'assumed' to be of standard, but aren't.. at least not always.

Then there is the angle of the wrench as you mentioned.
Not only does that change the torque value, to a small degree,
It also sets you up to strip the head bolt if the tool doesn't stay centered over the bolt.
It's common practice to cup the end of the tool with one hand and use a slight pressure against and centered to the bolt/nut.
Then move the wrench with the other hand.

It's also important to make sure the clicker wrench is set to the correct torque.
The lines are small on the handle and you have to be sure you line them up on the right numbered line.
The best way I've found is to run the dial all the way off and count the lines as you turn the dial.

That's another thing.
If you change the value, you should also turn the dial down past the lowest graduation and turn it back to the value you want next.
That relaxes the spring to let it charge up again.
If you turn too far trying to set the value, don't turn back to a lower value.
Relax the spring all the way out and start over.

The dial should always be turned down around the lowest value before putting it away.
If you leave the spring charged, it will stay that way when you next use it.
At that point, it's junk, the value you set next will be wrong.
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