The Sportster and Buell Motorcycle Forum - The XLFORUM®
 

Go Back   The Sportster and Buell Motorcycle Forum - The XLFORUM® > SPORTSTER MOTORCYCLE FORUM > Sportster Motorcycle Motor / Engine > Sportster Motorcycle - Bottom End
XLF Blogs XLF Arcade XLF Disclaimer/Privacy Statement/Terms Of Use

Sportster Motorcycle - Bottom End Cams, Cases, Gears, Flywheel, Piston Conecting Rods, Oil Pump, etc...

Active Threads
0 lengthen master cylinder
Last Post: rocketmangb
Posted On: 20 Minutes Ago
Replies: 4
Views: 31
0 Keep & Kill
Last Post: fafcpa
Posted On: 30 Minutes Ago
Replies: 15,290
Views: 861,226
3 Shaky Dave Recovery
Last Post: a-sad-anorak
Posted On: 45 Minutes Ago
Replies: 149
Views: 15,054
0 Oil, Filters and Spark Plugs
Last Post: RDHenley
Posted On: 57 Minutes Ago
Replies: 73
Views: 3,009
0 Official XL Forum Random Image Thread (NO NUDITY!)
Last Post: Graywolf
Posted On: 58 Minutes Ago
Replies: 46,179
Views: 7,318,193
0 Glyptal?
Last Post: bustert
Posted On: 1 Hour Ago
Replies: 21
Views: 714
0 Mid West Meet & Greet
Last Post: Stairman
Posted On: 1 Hour Ago
Replies: 114
Views: 9,349
0 Uh oh!!! Brass flakes/dust (a lot of it too) in my oil
Last Post: NGOT8R
Posted On: 1 Hour Ago
Replies: 148
Views: 6,196
0 Hot Chicks on Hot Bikes
Last Post: hammer6315
Posted On: 1 Hour Ago
Replies: 10,536
Views: 1,881,566
0 This week on Craig's list
Last Post: Ferrous Head
Posted On: 2 Hours Ago
Replies: 4,536
Views: 565,160
0 I'm almost afraid to ask this...
Last Post: madnss
Posted On: 2 Hours Ago
Replies: 18
Views: 2,238
0 Too HOT to ride?
Last Post: boomerguy
Posted On: 3 Hours Ago
Replies: 323
Views: 24,788
0 Hottie of the day, no nudity.
Last Post: Stairman
Posted On: 4 Hours Ago
Replies: 16,329
Views: 1,589,861
0 Food porn
Last Post: Crusty
Posted On: 6 Hours Ago
Replies: 1,778
Views: 318,958
0 Roads I'd like to ride.
Last Post: Nibelungen
Posted On: 7 Hours Ago
Replies: 2,791
Views: 242,836
0 Idle / transfer ports Q
Last Post: Billy1200
Posted On: 7 Hours Ago
Replies: 29
Views: 518
0 K&N Air Filter for old SE style backing plate?
Last Post: c1skout
Posted On: 10 Hours Ago
Replies: 5
Views: 232
0 Photo bucket
Last Post: NLXL
Posted On: 13 Hours Ago
Replies: 25
Views: 711
0 What kind of saddle do you use on your sporty?
Last Post: duffy
Posted On: 14 Hours Ago
Replies: 285
Views: 82,459
0 TC88A update ?
Last Post: 60Gunner
Posted On: 14 Hours Ago
Replies: 44
Views: 763
0 Poll: If you had to have a stock sporty, what would it be?
Last Post: Highly-Dangerous
Posted On: 14 Hours Ago
Replies: 587
Views: 178,701
0 1970 XLCH Cases - Blown Trans Corner
Last Post: savagegarden
Posted On: 15 Hours Ago
Replies: 10
Views: 399
0 Trans/Year Interchangeability Question
Last Post: paulc
Posted On: 15 Hours Ago
Replies: 173
Views: 5,574
0 Ride Report w/ 100's of Photos & Video - 8 States, 2 Countries & 2 Big Surprises
Last Post: DK Custom
Posted On: 15 Hours Ago
Replies: 49
Views: 3,556
0 Long intake
Last Post: RicThompson
Posted On: 15 Hours Ago
Replies: 46
Views: 1,660
0 Upside Down Monoshock IH - A Longterm Project
Last Post: paulc
Posted On: 16 Hours Ago
Replies: 154
Views: 32,104
0 External breathing systems
Last Post: rocketmangb
Posted On: 17 Hours Ago
Replies: 3
Views: 173
0 no spark
Last Post: harley in fl
Posted On: 17 Hours Ago
Replies: 15
Views: 349
0 Options for SE a/c cover
Last Post: Doc45
Posted On: 18 Hours Ago
Replies: 2
Views: 157
0 Broken bolt holes/ mounts, can they be fixed?
Last Post: NGOT8R
Posted On: 19 Hours Ago
Replies: 5
Views: 163
More...
Members Birthdays
Reynoldston (79), showmebandit (66), Hoppy1313 (66), FredrikK (64), Toejam503 (64), YO MUDA (61), Altopass (60), tim 2007xl1200c (53), w9awx (47), 3xtrastout (41)
Sponsored Links
Reply
 
Share Thread Tools Display Modes
  #881  
Old 5th December 2019
Hippysmack's Avatar
Hippysmack Hippysmack is offline
XL FORUM TEAM MEMBER
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 5,427
Sportster/Buell Model: Xl1250S
Sportster/Buell Year: 98
Other Motorcycle Model: Kawasaki Vulcan 500
Other Motorcycle Year: 95
Reputation: 5057098
Hippysmack has a reputation beyond reputeHippysmack has a reputation beyond reputeHippysmack has a reputation beyond reputeHippysmack has a reputation beyond reputeHippysmack has a reputation beyond reputeHippysmack has a reputation beyond reputeHippysmack has a reputation beyond reputeHippysmack has a reputation beyond reputeHippysmack has a reputation beyond reputeHippysmack has a reputation beyond reputeHippysmack has a reputation beyond repute
Default Timing the breather valve (57-76)

See if I got this right.
Here's the link in Sportsterpedia.
http://www.sportsterpedia.com/doku.p...:ih:engmech07a

The breather valve must be retimed if disengaged from the oil pump (spherical) drive gear on the pinion shaft.

Finding the advance timing mark on the flywheel

The flywheel needs to be positioned so the advance timing mark on the front cylinder is in the timing window. The single vertical line in most ironhead motors indicates the advance mark used for timing with a timing light. This line is also used for setting the breather and has nothing to do with pinion gear marks, cam marks or TDC of the pistons.

The FSM says to remove the timing plug, rotate the engine until the advance timing mark is centered in the timing hole.
See also Timing Marks in the IH section of the Sportsterpedia for the correct factory advance marks.
http://www.sportsterpedia.com/doku.p...1#timing_marks






However, any particular bike may not have the original flywheels.
So it is most important to always do a simple check to verify which mark to use on the flywheel.
Aftermarket flywheels have been know to have the timing marks cut wrong also.

Pull the front spark plug, and using a wooden dowel or a drinking straw, feel the piston come up as you rotate the engine.
Before it gets to the top, the advance mark will show. As the piston hits the top of the stroke, the TDC mark will come up.
The first mark to come up makes the motor fire “earlier” than the second dot to come up.
Earlier, is advanced. So the first mark to come up, is the advance mark. Some later bikes are reversed, so the type of mark is not consistant, but the geometry is.
Normally. a single vertical line is the advance timing mark on earlier ironheads, not the dot.

To state it another way, rotate the motor forward until the front piston tops out.
Check the mark, that is front TDC.
Now slowly rotate the motor backwards and the first mark you come to will be the front (advanced) timing mark for timing the breather valve.
This will work on any flywheels ever made.
Lock the engine when you've found the advance timing mark so the engine doesn't rotate and lose that position.

Timing the Breather Valve

Rotate the engine to get the advanced timing mark in the timing window as above.
Remove the pinion shaft gear, and turn the engine so the mark on the oil pump drive on the shaft is pointing straight up.
See the Pinion Gear Tools in the REF section of the Sportsterpedia for some helpful ideas on a gear puller / remover.
http://www.sportsterpedia.com/doku.p...1#timing_marks

The pump drive gear is a slip fit over splines on the pinion shaft.
A mark is cut on one side of it which should face outward against the pinion gear when installed.
Line up the timing hole on the breather sleeve gear on the oil pump to be in the notch (window) in the front. It may take a few tries to roll it into place.
Don't sweat it too much if you can't get the dot exactly centered in the notch.
It is not uncommon to have the DOT slightly to the left just entering the notch of the pump.

Then reinstall the pinion gear. It should have one larger spline to engage the shaft and it can only go on one way and have the line facing out.
It's a light press fit onto the pinion shaft.
You can heat the gear up in a grill, oven or with a propane torch just enough to make it expand enough to slide it back on the pinion shaft.
It should not be heated to 'red hot' but just enough to allow it to expand some.

Note: Once the breather valve is correctly timed, the position of the flywheel and breather valve timing marks can be disregarded when installing timing gears (cams).





__________________
Reference the XLFORUM'S Sportsterpedia for additional technical information & advice

In Search of Fuel, Sunshine and a Steady Idle.
Reply With Quote
  #882  
Old 5th December 2019
bustert's Avatar
bustert bustert is offline
XL FORUM TEAM MEMBER
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 9,748
Sportster/Buell Model: 1200s
Sportster/Buell Year: 2001
Sportster/Buell Model #2: xlch
Sportster/Buell Year #2: 1974
Reputation: 3014785
bustert has a reputation beyond reputebustert has a reputation beyond reputebustert has a reputation beyond reputebustert has a reputation beyond reputebustert has a reputation beyond reputebustert has a reputation beyond reputebustert has a reputation beyond reputebustert has a reputation beyond reputebustert has a reputation beyond reputebustert has a reputation beyond reputebustert has a reputation beyond repute
Default

no cigar
tom terriffic hat please
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
  #883  
Old 6th December 2019
Hippysmack's Avatar
Hippysmack Hippysmack is offline
XL FORUM TEAM MEMBER
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 5,427
Sportster/Buell Model: Xl1250S
Sportster/Buell Year: 98
Other Motorcycle Model: Kawasaki Vulcan 500
Other Motorcycle Year: 95
Reputation: 5057098
Hippysmack has a reputation beyond reputeHippysmack has a reputation beyond reputeHippysmack has a reputation beyond reputeHippysmack has a reputation beyond reputeHippysmack has a reputation beyond reputeHippysmack has a reputation beyond reputeHippysmack has a reputation beyond reputeHippysmack has a reputation beyond reputeHippysmack has a reputation beyond reputeHippysmack has a reputation beyond reputeHippysmack has a reputation beyond repute
Default

That's as terrific as I've gotten.
Elaborate?

edit:
#2 cam is off a tooth but that is the only pic I have found of the breather timing setup.
Should I just do a drawing?

Last edited by Hippysmack; 6th December 2019 at 01:52..
Reply With Quote
  #884  
Old 6th December 2019
needspeed needspeed is offline
XL FORUM LIFE MEMBER
 
Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 1,059
Sportster/Buell Model: xlh
Sportster/Buell Year: 1974
Reputation: 403164
needspeed has a reputation beyond reputeneedspeed has a reputation beyond reputeneedspeed has a reputation beyond reputeneedspeed has a reputation beyond reputeneedspeed has a reputation beyond reputeneedspeed has a reputation beyond reputeneedspeed has a reputation beyond reputeneedspeed has a reputation beyond reputeneedspeed has a reputation beyond reputeneedspeed has a reputation beyond reputeneedspeed has a reputation beyond repute
Default

The pinion gear should be installed onto the shaft so that the outer face of the gear is 5/16 outboard of the gasket surface. In that position the oil pump drive gear has a lot of end play between the shaft shoulder and the back of the pinion gear as shown in your picture. When the engine runs the drive gear is thrust against the back of the pinion gear.

So if you time the pump with the gear in the opposite direction pushed against the shaft shoulder it's very easy to get the lineup off a tooth. If you are going to pull the pinion gear off you'll need to determine the position where the drive gear will end up with the pinion gear installed. Measuring from the gasket surface the length of the gear minus 5/16 should do it.

Another option to timing is to leave the gears on the shaft and just install the pump while engaging the gears. Sort of like installing a distributor. It may take a few tries to mesh the right teeth because the pump will turn as it's pushed in. One disadvantage though with this method is that you can't turn the pump by hand to see if it's binding which they sometimes do.

The drive gear can only fit on the shaft one way so with the timing mark in the hole it shouldn't be necessary, and it might cause confusion to worry about where the line on the gear is pointing. When the timing mark is in the hole it doesn't make sense to rotate the crank to any other position.
Reply With Quote
  #885  
Old 6th December 2019
Hippysmack's Avatar
Hippysmack Hippysmack is offline
XL FORUM TEAM MEMBER
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 5,427
Sportster/Buell Model: Xl1250S
Sportster/Buell Year: 98
Other Motorcycle Model: Kawasaki Vulcan 500
Other Motorcycle Year: 95
Reputation: 5057098
Hippysmack has a reputation beyond reputeHippysmack has a reputation beyond reputeHippysmack has a reputation beyond reputeHippysmack has a reputation beyond reputeHippysmack has a reputation beyond reputeHippysmack has a reputation beyond reputeHippysmack has a reputation beyond reputeHippysmack has a reputation beyond reputeHippysmack has a reputation beyond reputeHippysmack has a reputation beyond reputeHippysmack has a reputation beyond repute
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by needspeed View Post

The drive gear can only fit on the shaft one way so with the timing mark in the hole it shouldn't be necessary, and it might cause confusion to worry about where the line on the gear is pointing. When the timing mark is in the hole it doesn't make sense to rotate the crank to any other position.
Yeah, I see your point. The FSM says to face the mark outward.
I would think having the line up is just a way to verify that?
The pump gear could actually be installed in four different positions as long as the mark is facing you instead of the engine?
Reply With Quote
  #886  
Old 6th December 2019
needspeed needspeed is offline
XL FORUM LIFE MEMBER
 
Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 1,059
Sportster/Buell Model: xlh
Sportster/Buell Year: 1974
Reputation: 403164
needspeed has a reputation beyond reputeneedspeed has a reputation beyond reputeneedspeed has a reputation beyond reputeneedspeed has a reputation beyond reputeneedspeed has a reputation beyond reputeneedspeed has a reputation beyond reputeneedspeed has a reputation beyond reputeneedspeed has a reputation beyond reputeneedspeed has a reputation beyond reputeneedspeed has a reputation beyond reputeneedspeed has a reputation beyond repute
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hippysmack View Post
The pump gear could actually be installed in four different positions as long as the mark is facing you instead of the engine?
No. Up until '77 the pinion shaft and gears had one spline that was wider than the other three so the gears can only be put on one way as far as rotational clocking. But you're right, it would be possible to put the drive gear on with the mark either to the outside or inside.
Reply With Quote
  #887  
Old 6th December 2019
bustert's Avatar
bustert bustert is offline
XL FORUM TEAM MEMBER
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 9,748
Sportster/Buell Model: 1200s
Sportster/Buell Year: 2001
Sportster/Buell Model #2: xlch
Sportster/Buell Year #2: 1974
Reputation: 3014785
bustert has a reputation beyond reputebustert has a reputation beyond reputebustert has a reputation beyond reputebustert has a reputation beyond reputebustert has a reputation beyond reputebustert has a reputation beyond reputebustert has a reputation beyond reputebustert has a reputation beyond reputebustert has a reputation beyond reputebustert has a reputation beyond reputebustert has a reputation beyond repute
Default

no it cannot be reversed
the helical cut of the gears will not mesh
one way to align is to remove the pinion and drive and counter rotate oil pump and install drive gear to get it aligned in the window and the install pinion with depth gauge
Reply With Quote
  #888  
Old 6th December 2019
bustert's Avatar
bustert bustert is offline
XL FORUM TEAM MEMBER
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 9,748
Sportster/Buell Model: 1200s
Sportster/Buell Year: 2001
Sportster/Buell Model #2: xlch
Sportster/Buell Year #2: 1974
Reputation: 3014785
bustert has a reputation beyond reputebustert has a reputation beyond reputebustert has a reputation beyond reputebustert has a reputation beyond reputebustert has a reputation beyond reputebustert has a reputation beyond reputebustert has a reputation beyond reputebustert has a reputation beyond reputebustert has a reputation beyond reputebustert has a reputation beyond reputebustert has a reputation beyond repute
Default

the pcv system goes back to war era and was used to allow vehicles to ford deep water without water intrusion. it never was used to meet emission law as that did not come till decades later.
Reply With Quote
  #889  
Old 6th December 2019
Tomcatt Tomcatt is offline
Dazed & Confused
 
Join Date: Feb 2019
Location: Never Never Land
Posts: 817
Sportster/Buell Model: XL1200C
Sportster/Buell Year: 2017
Other Motorcycle Model: BMW R Nine T
Other Motorcycle Year: 2015
Reputation: 1085783
Tomcatt has a reputation beyond reputeTomcatt has a reputation beyond reputeTomcatt has a reputation beyond reputeTomcatt has a reputation beyond reputeTomcatt has a reputation beyond reputeTomcatt has a reputation beyond reputeTomcatt has a reputation beyond reputeTomcatt has a reputation beyond reputeTomcatt has a reputation beyond reputeTomcatt has a reputation beyond reputeTomcatt has a reputation beyond repute
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by bustert View Post
the pcv system goes back to war era and was used to allow vehicles to ford deep water without water intrusion. it never was used to meet emission law as that did not come till decades later.
"Crankcase ventilation" aka crankcase breathers / breathing go back to IC's beginnings. BUT the 1st thing the EPA did, starting in '67, was require routing the breather so the fumes were inhaled and burned rather than being vented to the atmosphere.
__________________
2017 XL1200C in Wisconsin, USA

Last edited by Tomcatt; 7th December 2019 at 00:17..
Reply With Quote
  #890  
Old 6th December 2019
Hippysmack's Avatar
Hippysmack Hippysmack is offline
XL FORUM TEAM MEMBER
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 5,427
Sportster/Buell Model: Xl1250S
Sportster/Buell Year: 98
Other Motorcycle Model: Kawasaki Vulcan 500
Other Motorcycle Year: 95
Reputation: 5057098
Hippysmack has a reputation beyond reputeHippysmack has a reputation beyond reputeHippysmack has a reputation beyond reputeHippysmack has a reputation beyond reputeHippysmack has a reputation beyond reputeHippysmack has a reputation beyond reputeHippysmack has a reputation beyond reputeHippysmack has a reputation beyond reputeHippysmack has a reputation beyond reputeHippysmack has a reputation beyond reputeHippysmack has a reputation beyond repute
Default

Ok so the pump drive gear can only be installed one way on the shaft rotationally speaking but can be mechanically installed backwards.
If the drive gear mark is facing you but not facing up, the advance timing mark on the flywheel is not in the timing hole window as it should be.
If the advance timing mark is in the window and you can't see the mark on the drive gear, the gear is backwards.
If the pump drive gear is backwards, the gears won't mesh with the breather gear and the pump will bind.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



Sponsored Links
All times are GMT +1. The time now is 16:46.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
XL Forum® - Linson Media LLC