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cv carb, cv carb problems, idle cable, throttle cable adjustment

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  #11  
Old 12th June 2019
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Is this a Mikuni carb ?
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  #12  
Old 12th June 2019
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wedge View Post
It looks like I misunderstood. The throttle does snap back to the idle position, your issue is that it does not reach WOT?
Hey Wedge, correct before I took the carb off for cleaning the throttle was snapping back closed. My issue is that the wheel never reaches the stop boss, though I'm not sure how big of an issue that is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wedge View Post
Travel is determined by the throttle grip not by cable length. The travel is whatever radius that cable groove inside is on your throttle and how far the throttle can turn.
So I'm somewhat correct then in the problem being I have too much inner cable and not enough housing? I figured the overall length wasnt the determining factor but the relationship of outer length to inner length? It seems that if I could add more threads to the adjuster it would be able to reach the stop boss, not that I can but just so we are all on the same page of the problem.

The carb is CV and I have a biltwell throttle sleeve inside the stock housing right now, and the cables were routed correctly in the housing. Do different throttle sleeves allow more or less travel? I know some companies make quarter turn throttles but I thought this was just a stock replacement.

The bike isnt running right now because I'm waiting on a new seal for the carb bowl since the old one was cracking. Here is how I found this issue:

1. I finally have time to get y bike running again a few weeks ago and get the battery all charged back up. I try firing it up and cannot get it to go so I take my air cleaner off and see the accelerator pump is not squirting.

2. I take the bowl off and find the little ball in the pump was stuck with varnished gas. I cleaned that out put it back together and now the accelerator pump is squirting again. The bike fires up now but wont idle, but its been 6 months or so since I last started it so I figure I'll just run it around the neighborhood and see if it warms up.

3. The bike still wont idle so I decide to check my cable adjustment and notice that problem.(Overall I dont think that was the idle problem). I just decided to take the whole carb off and clean it because if the accelerator pump was clogged theres probably more crap in there. (I was right there was some junk clogging up the pilot jet so I'm hoping that was my idle problem)

So now I'm looking for some help from you more knowledgable guys on whether I should just replace the cables or if I'm missing something obvious. I've taken the carb off and cleaned and re-jetted a good amount of times since owning the bike so I'm fairly confident it wasn't the cable routing or putting them in the wrong part of the grip.
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  #13  
Old 12th June 2019
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wedge View Post

Maybe that throttle plate is too far closed so that when you adjust to it, then you don't have the travel left to reach WOT? Have you fired it up? How does it idle? You need to adjust the lower limit of the throttle plate by getting the idle in the right zone (around 1000 to 1100 RPM when the mixture screw is adjusted properly). If that is good now, then I am at a loss here except... WOT is where the throttle plate just reaches wide open. That doesn't mean that the stop has to be reached to get there. The plate being wide open is all that is required.
So before my moving madness and not being able to ride for the last 6 months the bike did idle and the throttle was "seemingly" working fine. I say that because I'm not an expert mechanic but I was able to ride it and it had no issues idling or accelerating. I wasnt aware that the throttle plate is adjustable? Is it adjusted with the idle speed screw? I have the extra long screw from CV Performance, if that matters at all.
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  #14  
Old 12th June 2019
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mzavala2424 View Post
Hey Toejam, they were definitely in the right part of the grip and carb, the idle cable with the spring was attached from the back of the grip to the inboard part of the carb bracket. The throttle cable without the spring was attached from the front of the grip to the outboard part of the carb bracket.

Both of my cables have the 130* bends coming out of the grip, not sure if that is just a manufacturer choice or not. Could that mean they are not the right year and would have too much travel?
Stock cables have a 90 degree bend but the 130's should be OK, I think they are designed to work with taller handlebars. How is the cable holding bracket(s) on the carb positioned, possibly bent?
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  #15  
Old 12th June 2019
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Hey ToeJam I dont think its bent, it looks straight to me but I'm attaching some pics in case there is something I'm missing.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1vD...pzUtLscR2Nr3qt

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1RT...HxGfPaXF0WiEVe
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  #16  
Old 13th June 2019
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mzavala2424 View Post
So I'm somewhat correct then in the problem being I have too much inner cable and not enough housing? I figured the overall length wasnt the determining factor but the relationship of outer length to inner length? It seems that if I could add more threads to the adjuster it would be able to reach the stop boss, not that I can but just so we are all on the same page of the problem.
The difference between the inner cable length and the outer cable length does not have anything to do with the full travel. You could have the stock length outer cable, with an inner cable that would reach across the length of your garage and out to the street, and you couldn't change travel by a thousandth of an inch. Travel is only related to the amount of cable that gets wrapped around the throttle when you twist it.

So, if the throttle plate sits against the idle speed screw (the stop screw) at idle, AND you have the slop adjusted out of the cable by whatever means you need to do that, then when you twist the throttle the cable will be pulled exactly the same amount as gets wrapped around the throttle in your hand.


Quote:
Originally Posted by mzavala2424 View Post
So before my moving madness and not being able to ride for the last 6 months the bike did idle and the throttle was "seemingly" working fine. I say that because I'm not an expert mechanic but I was able to ride it and it had no issues idling or accelerating. I wasnt aware that the throttle plate is adjustable? Is it adjusted with the idle speed screw? I have the extra long screw from CV Performance, if that matters at all.
The idle speed screw is the one that adjusts where the throttle plate stops. The long adjusting screw from CV Performance is for adjusting idle mixture. (I am not aware of a screw they make to replace the idle stop screw but I could be mistaken).

I don't want to introduce too much confusion here, but as you adjust idle, you will end up with idle speed around 1000 to 1100, and if you have the mixture adjusted correctly at that speed, the throttle plate will be where it belongs.

The only issue comes in when people do not adjust correctly, and the throttle plate is held open too far while they mal-adjust the idle mixture screw to get the speed right. That never works out, and it will result in dead spots off idle, an idle that will not stay constant during the day, etc.

You need to use the idle drop method, and as it gets to where it feels closer, then drop the idle speed and readjust, rinse and repeat until you get it down to a very slow idle that passes the idle drop test. Leave it set center of idle drop range + about 1/4 turn then adjust idle speed to be spot on to where you want it.

This is a quick overview, so read up more on the overall carb adjusting procedure and it will all make more sense. Also, while I am at it, here is how I start to begin with on a carb I am not familiar with. I put in a main jet that is certain to be too large and adjust idle first, then mid range with the needle, then recheck idle. Once that is all done I fine tune the main jet. The main jet is the top limit of fuel, so you can leave it on your bench while you tune the idle and mid range. The bike will run fine up to about 80 MPH unless you dump the throttle to WOT. If you start with a smaller main than you need, then you will starve your testing in the mid range and eventually you will need to up the main jet and start back over on the mid range.

A good friend of mine put me to the test on this. He left his main jet on the bench and rode around San Bernardino and found that the bike was good to 80. I didn't need to test it because I have had a history of working on dirt bikes and finding the main jet sitting in the float bowl when people have complained of poor top end. Those bikes always ran fine in the idle to mid range.
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  #17  
Old 13th June 2019
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Is that right, about the relationship of inner cable length to outer cable length? Since the throttle is adjusted by changing the outer cable length, it seemed obvious to me that the difference between inner and outer cable lengths was relevant?
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  #18  
Old 13th June 2019
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Folkie View Post
Is that right, about the relationship of inner cable length to outer cable length? Since the throttle is adjusted by changing the outer cable length, it seemed obvious to me that the difference between inner and outer cable lengths was relevant?
The relevance is that if the inner cable is too long (sticking out of the outer sheath), you won't be able to get the outer sheath snug against the cable socket at the carb throttle cable bracket because you will maximize the adjuster...

If the inner cable is too short, you won't get the full throttle grip movement to go fully open or fully closed (depending on which way you have it adjusted)...

The measurement I see most of the time for 'travel distance' (which is the term most often used to describe the difference between the outer sheath and the inner cable sticking out of it WHEN PULLED FULLY TO ONE END) is very near 5" -- It can vary for different specific models --- max I've seen is 5-3/8" and usually greater than 4-3/4"... (these are not installed measurements, but of the cable alone)

On my 1994, it was 5-1/8" (as shown in the SP) using Motion Pro cables...
http://sportsterpedia.com/doku.php/t...hrottle_cables

I have not measured the actual distance the cable moves with maximum throttle grip rotation - nor the total adjustment distance available on the cable adjusters... Those two measurements may determine the overall minimum and maximum lengths that can be effective - although the exact routing of the cable may also take up some differences...

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  #19  
Old 13th June 2019
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mzavala2424 View Post
Hey ToeJam I dont think its bent, it looks straight to me but I'm attaching some pics in case there is something I'm missing.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1vD...pzUtLscR2Nr3qt

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1RT...HxGfPaXF0WiEVe
Your bracket looks straight. When your cables are in the bracket, they should be snug. If it's tight at the grip too, then, if you're still not getting full rotation, one or both cables are too short in the cable sheaths (with the adjusters at around halfway). {Side note: my '06 has the 130 bends at the throttle, too. Adjusters are at 9 screw threads showing on the throttle cable and 15 screw threads showing on the Idle cable.)
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  #20  
Old 14th June 2019
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wedge View Post
The difference between the inner cable length and the outer cable length does not have anything to do with the full travel. You could have the stock length outer cable, with an inner cable that would reach across the length of your garage and out to the street, and you couldn't change travel by a thousandth of an inch. Travel is only related to the amount of cable that gets wrapped around the throttle when you twist it.

So, if the throttle plate sits against the idle speed screw (the stop screw) at idle, AND you have the slop adjusted out of the cable by whatever means you need to do that, then when you twist the throttle the cable will be pulled exactly the same amount as gets wrapped around the throttle in your hand.




The idle speed screw is the one that adjusts where the throttle plate stops. The long adjusting screw from CV Performance is for adjusting idle mixture. (I am not aware of a screw they make to replace the idle stop screw but I could be mistaken).

I don't want to introduce too much confusion here, but as you adjust idle, you will end up with idle speed around 1000 to 1100, and if you have the mixture adjusted correctly at that speed, the throttle plate will be where it belongs.

The only issue comes in when people do not adjust correctly, and the throttle plate is held open too far while they mal-adjust the idle mixture screw to get the speed right. That never works out, and it will result in dead spots off idle, an idle that will not stay constant during the day, etc.

You need to use the idle drop method, and as it gets to where it feels closer, then drop the idle speed and readjust, rinse and repeat until you get it down to a very slow idle that passes the idle drop test. Leave it set center of idle drop range + about 1/4 turn then adjust idle speed to be spot on to where you want it.

This is a quick overview, so read up more on the overall carb adjusting procedure and it will all make more sense. Also, while I am at it, here is how I start to begin with on a carb I am not familiar with. I put in a main jet that is certain to be too large and adjust idle first, then mid range with the needle, then recheck idle. Once that is all done I fine tune the main jet. The main jet is the top limit of fuel, so you can leave it on your bench while you tune the idle and mid range. The bike will run fine up to about 80 MPH unless you dump the throttle to WOT. If you start with a smaller main than you need, then you will starve your testing in the mid range and eventually you will need to up the main jet and start back over on the mid range.

A good friend of mine put me to the test on this. He left his main jet on the bench and rode around San Bernardino and found that the bike was good to 80. I didn't need to test it because I have had a history of working on dirt bikes and finding the main jet sitting in the float bowl when people have complained of poor top end. Those bikes always ran fine in the idle to mid range.
Hey wedge,

Thanks for the explanation on the throttle plate. I have previously tuned the carb using the idle drop method and re-jetted and tuned it using CV performances tuner kit. I think my jetting and tuning was pretty good before the bike had been sitting. Thats pretty crazy about the main jet, I would have never guessed you could get up to that speed without it.

CV performance does indeed make an extended idle speed screw you can see it in the pic I linked before. Here it is again: https://drive.google.com/open?id=1vD...pzUtLscR2Nr3qt

I get what you are saying about the travel being set by the distance travelled when you twist the throttle. My thought was that in practice the distance the cable wraps around the throttle sleeve would be a constant, the throttle sleeve can only twist so far in the housing. If my cables outer sheath doesn't have the adjustability to take the full amount of slop out than I end up with the inability to get to WOT. Thats why I suspected maybe the cables were the incorrect ones or maybe a factory mistake.
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