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  #431  
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Your 84 has the dual divider plates and spring between them as well as the improved (83) pressed in shaft seal.
The check valve cartridge ((77-E87) has an O-ring between it and it's bore.
The cartridge seems better closing off oil better then the ball until you get trash inside the cartridge / spring.
The check (disc) is spring loaded.
With only 34 thou on the clock, you may haven't worn these parts enough to leak.
Or you just may a non-typical situation.
But there are tons of threads on the forum regarding sumping on gerotor pumps.
It's both from the pump clearances and check.
L87-up, they went back to a check ball which never seems to seat exactly in the same position twice.
So it's not all just about pump clearances as you know.

edit:
I can say this.
I've dismembered my little testing station now but then every new day, I had to wipe an oil film off the top of the mounting plate.
I purposely cleaned it at night to see how oil would come back the next day.
It was a thick oil film, enough to saturate both hands (and an old shirt) with oil, but it wasn't flowing out.
It was just steadily seeping from the high oil tank feed line back into the pump then up into the scavenge side and up and out the driveshaft bushing.
So I figure the higher percentage of sumping oil on those years are from the check ball.
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Last edited by Hippysmack; 1 Week Ago at 02:24..
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  #432  
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That's what I've been trying to tell you.
There are no seals to replace.
The scavenge gerotors are up top, then a metal divider plate, then the feed gerotors.
The only difference in mine and your 84 is I only have one plate between feed and scavenge and you have 2 plus a spring plate between the plates and a seal between the plates.
Neither of us have a seal on the shaft between the top bushing and scavenge gerotors.
But oil that could come in from the vertical return line is between the tank and pump.
The bigger outlet for that oil is thru the gerotor clearances back to the sump.
So it's possible to seep return hose oil to the sump there.
Especially if you have radial scratches on the housing where the gears ride.
Oil will migrate thru the scratches back to the sump.
I should have had some of that going on with my test rig but didn't think about it then.
But I also had seepage on top which means oil was backing up inside the pump to that point.
The path from the feed hose (in reality - from filter to pump, possibly from top end feed path to pump also) migrates down between gerotor clearances up thru the scavenge gerotors and back to sump or cam floor.
Any oil higher than the pump can come back into it when sitting.
We speak of the oil check allowing tank oil to enter the engine.
What if it's both tank oil and oil laying up high in the motor feed path (that gets back thru the check) that converges thru clearances back to the sump?
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The scratches you see in this pump really aren't too deep.
But with use especially with solids in the oil, they can get worse.
Of all the used pumps I've seen, most have some sort of radial scratches.
This is a direct path especially on the feed side from the oil tank, above or below the feed gerotors to the discharge side and up to the oil check.
A good holding oil check pressurizes the pump which lets oil migrate up the shaft to the return side and back thru the sump passage.
6 in one hand, half a dozen in the other.
Pump clearances or check? It's a toss-up but has never been stopped fully.
54-76 pumps have also been known to have scratches above the gears.
Your seal fix on those would put more responsibility on the check ball.
We all know what happens there especially if you ride every day.
All mechanical things fail in time.
What we are doing is documenting what fails and what to do about it.
But we will never fully stop it.

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Ok, enough pleasantries... back to mumbo jumbo.

Centripetal Force vs Centrifugal Force
Centripetal force is an inward force that is experienced by an object moving in a circular path directed toward the center of rotation. The centripetal force acts in both inertial and non-inertial frames. It is what is often used to describe what happens to a ball as it rotates in a circle by a string. It appears to be pushed as far away from the handler (center point) as possible.

The concept of Centrifugal force in physics is generally that it is a “fictitious” force (not real). Centrifugal force is experienced by an object moving in a circular path directed away from the center of rotation. Centrifugal force acts only inside a rotating frame (non-inertial frame).

Centripetal Force
Newton’s laws of motion do not consider centrifugal force as a real force. And according to Newton’s law , acceleration is caused by some force acting on an object. The only force being applied a ball pulled in a circle on a string is the act of pulling it toward the center of rotation, which is a centripetal force (Greek for “center-seeking” force). There is nothing actually pulling the ball away from the string, what you have is just Inertia as described by Newton in his First Law of Motion: An object at rest remains at rest unless acted upon by a force and an object in motion remains in motion—at a constant velocity and straight direction—unless acted upon by a force. The ball has a force of inertia and is actually traveling in a straight path (not in circle) but centripetal force is pulling and accelerating the ball toward the handler (center). So if you were to cut the string with the ball rotating in a circle, what would happen? Some might think that the ball would fly away straight-lined from the center of the handler. And if centrifugal force was real, the stone would surely move in an outwards direction straight-lined away from center. But that’s not correct. The ball would actually move perpendicular to the handler due to Inertia. The centripetal force of the string works against inertia by keeping the ball from travelling in a straight path. It is this constant struggle against inertia that makes it seem that the ball is trying to move away from the handler. What we call a centrifugal force here is actually just the effect of inertia working against the centripetal force.





Inertia
Inertia is the force moving an object in a straight line. In a circle frame, inertia is always tangent to the circle and trying to move the object in a right angle (perpendicular) to the line to center. Inertia is the tendency of an object to not experience a change in it's motion. When you are in a car going through a turn, your body wants to keep moving in a straight line, which is why you “feel” like you are being pushed to one side or the other. During the turn through a curve, the vehicle is driven by the centripetal force that acts on all parts of the vehicle. However, you retain the freedom of movement and thus maintain a straight path when the vehicle begins to turn. This causes you to move towards the edge of the seat towards the door which transmits the centripetal force to you. The force you “feel” moving you away from the car is centrifugal force.

Centrifugal Force
Centrifugal force is termed a “fictitious” force because it only comes to play when centripetal force is present. From Newton's third law of motion, For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction (Centrifugal force is thought of as the opposite reaction to Centripetal force). This also represents the push and pull interaction between objects. This force results due to the inertial property of the body moving in a circular path. Throughout the circle of rotation, an object changes in direction due to the force of inertia acting against centripetal force. The direction of centrifugal force is away from the axis of rotation and is parallel to the axis of rotation. Centrifugal force does not have an independent existence (it can't exist without centripetal force being present). Centrifugal force is equal in magnitude and dimensions with the centripetal force it's acting opposite of (outward force is equal and opposite to inward force). Centrifugal force also depends on the mass of the object, the distance of the object from the center, and the speed of the rotation. The concept of centrifugal force has been used in various rotating devices like centrifuge rotors, banked roads, centrifugal pumps and even washing machines. Centrifugal force is used by washing machine and dryers where the spinning of the rotor in a washing machine generates a centrifugal force that causes the clothes to move away from the center. This causes the water to be forced out of the wet clothes through the holes present in the chamber.

In the example of a ball pulled by a string above, the acceleration toward the center is “felt” by the ball as a force pulling it away from the handler. Much as a person on a merry-go-round “feels” like they are being pushed away from the center of the ride. But in that instance, it's not centrifugal force pulling the body away from the ride. If the person falls off the merry-go-round, the body doesn't fall off inline with the center of the ride. The person would fall perpendicular or at a 90 degree angle from center of the ride.

Centrifugal Force and The Sportster Flywheel Assembly
If a body rotates about it's own center of mass (axis), this means that the resultant of the centrifugal forces of all the elements of the body is equal to zero (or, in other words, no centrifugal force is exerted on the axis of rotation itself). So the oil in the pinion shaft receives no boost from centrifugal force nor is there a pressure change due to such.
And as in a centrifuge, heavier particles in the pinion shaft will be pushed toward the sides of the oil stream especially on higher RPM.
Heavier particles will then filter into the oil stream on lower RPM.
However, the oil in the flywheel to the crankpin will have an extra force added to the flow due to inertia.
Inertia flows in a single line perpendicular from the axis until some force changes that.
The oil path from the pinion shaft to the crankpin in a 1998 Sportster is exampled below.

The oil in the pinion shaft enters the shaft ID and spins in unison with it while at the same time, the center of flow heads toward the flywheel.
Centrifugal force spreads the heavier particles (metal, whatever) to the sides of the stream in the pinion shaft. There is no pressure change inside the pinion shaft.
When the oil gets into the flywheel, it is Inertia that throws forward force on the oil toward the crankpin.
The passages thru the (98 style flywheel anyway) to crankpin are sized to reduce oil flow as the great push of inertia should be greater than oil pressure. Due to the restriction in the pinion shaft, only so much oil will pass to the crankpin per revolution.
If inertia would push more oil out than can come into the pinion shaft, the crankpin could run dry depending on RPM.



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  #435  
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What do you mean by no seals on cam bushings?
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Ok. Didn't know that.
I'm not familiar with flathead motors.
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not many are.overhead valves are not a ''passing fad.''
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I think I can answer that.
I experienced that when the first rubber cap disintegrated on my test rig.
Oil migrates up the shaft bringing oil in behind it in the lower regions.
If you stop oil from moving North, you stop or hinder hot oil from migrating away from the pump gears.
That's why I asked if you knew anything about heat buildup below your seal fix.
If you close off the ability to migrate away from the gears, you are totally dependent on slippage to move hot oil away from the gear faces.
Slippage having no where to migrate may just sit there rotating and heating up.
I need to do a gear pump clearance drawing but you can see what I mean in the one below.
There is a clearance on the top bushing and the spinning shaft drags oil through the bushing.
The displaced oil below is replenished.
Another "designed leak" if you will with the intent for lubrication and cooling during operation instead of stagnation.
The seal placement is about the same below as in 76< seal placement.
edit:
Biggest thing it does is lube the top shaft bushing with continuous flow.
edit:
I don't have time to do a gear pump drawing but by installing a seal under the top plate (-76< pumps), you'll hinder lubrication to the part of the shaft that sits inside the top plate.
Above the plate is the breather gear.

Air/oil is being thrust up from there and along with that comes northern windage and oil migration from the feed gears thru the clearance between the shaft and plate.
Worst comes to worse, the part of the shaft inside the plate snaps due to heat damage.
If it doesn't happen, then that's a good thing.
If it does, then you know what may have happened.


Last edited by Hippysmack; 1 Week Ago at 01:56..
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I'm not saying it won't work.
What I'm noting is the trade-off.
The trade is less oil migrating up the shaft during operation for the premise of not sit sumping.
If it's not a problem, then it's not a problem.
But HD designed it to migrate oil up that shaft.
Mods sometimes are great improvements but the trade-offs are hardly mentioned.
So I simply mentioned it.
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Like I said, others have also done that mod and they seem Ok with it too.
But I've heard enough of "Harley couldn't figure this out".
They knew what they were doing.
Too many people bash the MoCo for building some badass bikes but not to individual standards.
They could have kept the motor on the back tire of the bicycle and let us figure out the rest.

edit:
Just trying to level the playing field.

Last edited by Hippysmack; 1 Week Ago at 16:55..
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