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  #1  
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billeuze billeuze is offline
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Default teflon buttons or circlips?

I need to decide what to use in my shovster project to secure the piston pins. These S&S pistons have grooves machined to accept circlips. I also have teflon buttons.

I read about teflon buttons that they can scratch the side of the cylinder wall so I thought it would be better to use circlips. But, then I read that teflon will really only scratch the cylinder wall if it has grit embedded in it. I also read that circlips can come loose from the piston under the stresses of engine operation - especially in a stroker (mine is 4.5 in).

I'd be curious to hear from people with real world experience with teflon buttons and circlips.
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Default teflon buttons

Just my opinion here. I have Venolia pistons with teflon buttons installed in my stroker with no issues. I have had many engines with circlips and have never had a failure from one. For me I would use the clips.
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I've used both and so far haven't had a problem with either one.

If you use clips be sure to use the style that the groove was cut for. If your unsure of that use buttons. And the end profile of the wrist pin needs to match the style of clip.

A good write up here: note the pin ends.

https://auto.jepistons.com/blog/wris...o-install-them

If your concerned about buttons rubbing on the cylinder use clips.
If you want the easiest installation and removal definitely use buttons.
Buttons can't come out. Clips can, though they never have for me.

I like spirolocks. They don't come out even when you want them to. I guess I'm a glutton for punishment.
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RicThompson RicThompson is offline
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needspeed laid out the facts. If there is any doubt as to the style retainer is required with your piston / pin combination teflon buttons are the way to go. With your piston pin installed in the piston install the teflon buttons and measure the end to end length. What is the inside diameter of your cylinder? If button/pin length is less than cylinder bore it's ready to run. You don't want buttons tight against cylinder wall. Tight in piston is good.
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Default Reality -- not hearsay

Let's cut right to the chase: pin buttons do not scratch bores (unless you have a huge amount of crap circulating in your oil.)

Instead, what they do is leave track marks. This "looks" like scratches on photos and a bunch of folks with little experience call these "scratches."


Frankly, pin buttons are WAY easier for an amateur mechanic to deal with as they assemble in only one way and cannot come out for any reason. No special tools, no special technique and no frustration at all.


Now, for the real information -- you asked about real world experience and I'm your huckleberry. I literally make buttons for myself and others. I often use 6061 alloy in an untempered state and also PTFE (teflon).


In fact, I just made this set last Monday for a 76" motor I'm building for a guy. These are 10:1 dytch pistons and totally irreplaceable. Some goof ball dug the spirolocs out and galled the bore as well as the groove. So, the pistons got honed to deal with the bore issue and pin buttons made up. As soon as the late 60s, dytch/axtell offered teflon buttons for these pistons.










The arrow pointing up is for quick orientation as I lightly radius the buttons to fit better with the piston profile. You can "see" this in real light; but it's way easier to just mark if you have a similar situation where the button comes to the full radius of the piston.

Notice that the pin buttons are faced dead flat and parallel to bore and so is the wrist pin.

As for sizing -- be real careful with internet "experts" on this topic.

Both PTFE and alloy buttons expand considerably -- with PTFE expanding a lot more than you may think it could.

Therefore, OD should be on average .001 less for a nominal light push fit.

For float -- a minimum of .040. That's pin plus button length minus bore. I usually use .060 so there is zero chance of an issue when I crank the hell out of a motor.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chuckthebeatertruck View Post

Frankly, pin buttons are WAY easier for an amateur mechanic to deal with as they assemble in only one way and cannot come out for any reason.

No special tools, no special technique and no frustration at all.


Now, for the real information -- you asked about real world experience and I'm your huckleberry.


As for sizing -- be real careful with internet "experts" on this topic.

Both PTFE and alloy buttons expand considerably -- with PTFE expanding a lot more than you may think it could.

Therefore, OD should be on average .001 less for a nominal light push fit.

For float -- a minimum of .040. That's pin plus button length minus bore. I usually use .060 so there is zero chance of an issue when I crank the hell out of a motor.
ok
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chuckthebeatertruck View Post
For float -- a minimum of .040. That's pin plus button length minus bore. I usually use .060 so there is zero chance of an issue when I crank the hell out of a motor.
Thanks so much Chuck. For the float do you mean .06 each button (.12 total)? Or .06” total (cylinder bore minus piston pin and length of both buttons)?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by billeuze View Post
Thanks so much Chuck. For the float do you mean .06 each button (.12 total)? Or .06” total (cylinder bore minus piston pin and length of both buttons)?
060 total float.

If it helps your brain, think of .030 a side.

Simply measure your bore and subtract .060. (measurement 1)

Measure your pin and subtract measurement 1. (measurement 2)

Divide measurement 2 by 2 and you get your approximate thickness per button.

Keep in mind that is the ultimate arc of the radius . . .so the edges maybe too "proud" - hence why I radius the buttons.
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Thanks, that’s clear now
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The buttons can't break as circlips sometimes do, they don't wear out, they go in nicely and can be reused. I ran them in my stroker and it was fine.
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