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  #1  
Old 24th July 2019
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Ferrous Head Ferrous Head is offline
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Default Wet Sump Ifo, fix and tools

The design of the oil pump for our beloved IH's is perhaps, a little rudimentary. They work well enough for most situations but do have one annoying habit. They tend to leak like a sieve. They leak on the inside. This leak leads to what we know as “wet sumping”. This is normally nothing more than a pain in the proverbial . But in some circumstances it can be a headache.

My sidecar engine does not have the sump plug. Some engines never had the holes drilled and tapped for the sump plug. I know most people never pull the sump plugs out for fear of damaging the threads. But I do. Or would if I could.

When your engine does wet sump it can make it much harder to kick it over. On a stroker burning Methanol it just makes it nearly impossible. With a solo I could lay it on it's side and pull the primary cover. Try that one with a sidecar.

So, after having my engine wet sump one more time I vowed to do something about it.

And here's what I did.
I installed another oil seal inside the pump. In the pump tower to be precise. The pump already has an oil seal in the body of the pump. This seal stops oil from leaking past the shaft on the scavenge side and into the feed side gears.
What HD didn't do was use an oil seal above the feed gears to stop oil leaking past the shaft into the pump tower.
So the shaft itself just runs against the cast iron pump tower. Well, until it wears enough clearance for itself to not interfere with the oils passage.
Once that happens the pump will leak. With the bike leaned on it's kick stand the oil leaks into the sump and then overflows into the primary case via the oil transfer valve in the left case half.

This really is a design flaw and should have never been allowed to persist.
Anyway, the solution is to install a seal in the pump tower
The biggest problem here is the area that should hold the seal is only about 3mm thick. And the answer to that problem is to machine up a “top hat” to be pressed into the pump tower to hold the seal.

The seal I used is the same seal used in the pump body. 26227-58 About $4 worth.

I know longer have a mill or a lathe. (Too old and blind) so I farmed out the machining operation to a local shop. Took them ½ hour to make two top hats and machine the towers and press in the top hats. They made two tools for me while they were at it.
The first is a backing tool that stops the pump tower face from distorting (bending inwards) when the top hat is pressed into place. The second is a seal installer. It can be dome without the seal installer but it's a very simple thing for anyone with a lathe to make. Both tools are.
After the top hat is pressed into place the pump tower face is faced off. HD's work here is less than stellar in any case.

So, $55 for the machine work and $8 for two seals. One pump tower is going in the race engine and one is for my big bore stroker engine.
$29.50 each.


I lose that much in oil when the thing wet sumps.

Sorry the drawing for the top hat is more a sketch than a CAD drawing but I'm a blind man. And I'm old. I might get time to do a better one later on but the critical dimensions are there.
Oh sorry we work in the metric system here. You might need to convert to inches.
I should have had a picture of the top hat as well but missed my opportunity on that one. Sorry

Here's the machines tower with the hat already pressed in. It should be clear to your machinist what is required from this. The actual line between the pump itself and the top hat is hard to see but it id there.




Here's the dimensions for the top hat.







I'll try and get some pics of the tools p a little later. (I'm old and need a "Nanny Nap"

Or, if this is "Old Hat" and you guys don't want to know about it - let me know.

PS I am currently testing this mod on my race engine so soon enough I'll know how good it is.
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Old 24th July 2019
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Old 24th July 2019
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Old 24th July 2019
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Pictures of the tools as I promised.

These are quite simple and can ve made in a few minutes by a competant machinist.

One is used as "backing" or the pump tower when your installing the top hat. The pump cover is only about 3mm thick in this are and you could bend it when your installing the top hat, this the simple tool.

Also we made a tool to install the oil seal. Not really necessary but ust makes the whole job faster and easier to do.

These were just made in mild steel. I have coated them wih Soft Seal to keep them from rusting while waiting for me to do another pump.







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Old 24th July 2019
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I will report back on the effectiveness of this modification in a month or so. I need to allow enough time for it to prov itself.

The pump on my race engine was only leaking about a quart a month.

But I can tell you with a belly full of 50 weight trying to turn the engine over to fire it up was a nightmare.

There is a guy in Ebay trying to sell modified pump towers for a small fortune. Save yourself some cash and DIY (with the help of a machine shop at any rate) Also, that guy is a thief. Stole a couple of hundred dollars worth of parts from me.
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Old 24th July 2019
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super duper +1 mr. ferrous, shows the low cost of just starting out, last than 1/2 of oldschool's 100+ dollar fix and no tools.
welcome to the club.
one ?
going into business doing it
as a side note, can be done without a machine shop using any accurate shop tools.
cus i took up the challenge
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Old 24th July 2019
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Hi Ferrous Head,

Nice job on the seal and thanks for posting.

This is a minor point and has nothing to do with your seal but I think you've got the function of the factory seal backwards. I think it's there to prevent oil from going from the feed to the scavenge gears.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ferrous Head View Post
....The pump already has an oil seal in the body of the pump. This seal stops oil from leaking past the shaft on the scavenge side and into the feed side gears....
Feed gears are on top and scavenge gears are on bottom.

In a motor that is sitting and not running any oil that drained from the tank to the feed gears and then though the shaft hole to the return gears would then have a clear passage back into the engine. And anyway, you wouldn't need a seal to prevent flow from return gears to feed gears because oil wouldn't flow from the tank through the return line because the return line is plumbed high on the tank.

And if the purpose is to prevent oil flow from one chamber to the other with the engine RUNNING, (which i doubt) then the way the seal is installed would indicate that it is preventing flow downward because the seal design is directional. The seal lip is up.

Again, nice job on the tower seal. I bet it will work.
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Old 24th July 2019
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The oil drains down from the tank into the feed section. The shaft comes through the bottom of the pump tower and the clearance between the hole in the pump tower and the shaft is where the oil gets past. For a long time I thought maybe the oil only leaked out of the pump tower when the breather valve was open. That's because sometimes the engine would wet sumo and sometimes not. It might slow the rate of leakage down if the breather valve is in a closed position when the engine is stopped but it will still leak.

It turned out that the clearance on the pump I used in my race engine was "more than average". Hence the race engine wet sumped badly.

But none of them are going to not leak at all. That's why HD put the oil transfer valve in. A better designed pump would have made more sense to me.

My 74 has less than 5000 miles on the clock. Sometimes, it wet sumps. It does get left unstarted for weeks at a time.
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Old 25th July 2019
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thanks for sharing this Gene.you have me curious now.how was a couple of hundred dollars of parts stolen?
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Old 25th July 2019
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I bought an oil pump and some lifters, pushrods and tuess from Patrick Newland (Inlinefabrication) Patrick is great, a very honest man. I bought a 79 from him a few months back.
Anyway, I got in touch with the Ebay seller and asked him to do thisseal modification for me on the pump and then ship it to me. "No problems" he said.
As I live in Australia having the pump come to me first and then shipping it to the USA and back made no sense. So, that's what I did.
The Ebay seller got the parts OK (after a couple weeks wait) but hen he proceeded to tell me the parts were "disgusting junk" the worst he's ever seen and told me I "should just trash it all and buy a pump from him." He basically declined to do the work on them.
I got in touch with Patrick and told him the story. His response 'no worry Mate, send them back to me I'll give you a full refund."
So I asked the Ebay seller to send them back for me.
He said "Nope, too hard. Get him to fax me a label and then I ill." I'm not going out of my way to help you."
So, I did. Patrick happily faxed him a shipping label.
But he bever sent the parts back. I waited a couple of weeks more. and then got in touch again.
He claimed Patrick never sent a shipping label and the parts weren't worth shipping anyway.
I asked him to ship them directly to me in that case and provided my Australian address.
He came back to me with a shipping price of over $100.

Now, I shi a LOT of parts from the US ro Australia. In fact, engines, complete bikes, transmissions, seals, gaskets, nuts bolts what have you.

I KNOW what it costs to ship stuff to Australia.

When I had a go at him about it he claimed $20 for me having to go to the Post Office and the rest was shipping.

So, basically extortion. I am NOT sending that Pri*k any money. In my mind he's nothing but a thief.

Buyer Beware. I wouldn't deal with this .........

Anyway, easy enough and a lot cheaper to do it my way.
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