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  #101  
Old 19th January 2022
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You've got a lot of different questions -- let's take them one by one.

1) Cross slides and drill presses . . .often will drive you insane. They are fine for drilling holes in stuff -- but are only as good as the table to which they are bolted and the accuracy of the quill above them. Think about that in light of your equipment and make a decision that suits you. Remember that on a cross slide, your table needs to be perpendicular and level to your quill in both axis or you're inducing error. How much error depends on the degree it is out of level and the length of the travel. That said -- craftsmanship can overcome lots of poor tooling -- sometimes.

2) You don't need to rigidly hold a ream for sizing valve guides. To make sure we're talking the same thing; I'm using "head bore" to describe the hole in which the guide is inserted and "guide bore" to descibe the ID of the valve guide.

3) For regular sizing of guide bores to valve stem -- you don't need a rigid hone. Careful reaming and use of a ball hone can get you there. Rigids are that little bit better, but they do cost. Few people do enough work to justify the investment.

4) There's a reason head work costs money -- between the tools and the experience, it adds up fast.

5) Changing a guide is less than half the battle. The other 60% is cutting a new seat and dealing with protrusion. Make sure you have a plan for that and your valves in hand before you spend money on tools for the rest of the operation. The best guide in the world can't make up for a poor seat or a protrusion that causes problems in the valve train.

So, let's talk about each of the things you want to do.

First, replacement of the guides is pretty straight forward - provided the bores in the head are not messed up. Make sure you clean the chamber well first so you don't drag any crap into the bore when you press or drive the guide out.













Note that is just the first cut for the new seat -- it's WAY too wide. There's a few more cuts to go. I just wanted to give you an illustration vs typing.

Anyways . . . .

Buck dancers choice on enlarging the ID of the old guide to make its removal easier. I haven't truly found that necessary on ironhead heads. Once the new guides are in, you'll generally find with Kibblewhite that it's the rocker arm end of the guide that has closed up just a bit. I either presize guides or ream to within .0005 and hone the rest.

I generally buy reams and other cylinder head tools from here: https://www.cylinderheadsupply.com/ This won't help you too much in Russia - but it will give you tool pictures and numbers that might help you find what you need in your area.

You don't have to rigidly mount the ream for this operation. In fact, trying to pilot the ream may cause you more trouble. The ream is there to remove high spots -- the hone is to do the final sizing. You can run the ream slowly by hand with a t-handle. Don't press down into it -- just gentle CW rotation in and gentle CW rotation out.


Second -- the out of round you describe is very common. Guides wear eccentric -- the more they wear the more the valve scrubs. Generally it is worst at the ends of the guide. The higher the lift or the more screwed up the protrusion -- the more they wear eccentric. Few DIY guys can detect the out of round because their equipment already can't hold .001-.002 and they don't have the practice/feel for getting truly down to ten thousandths. Your bore gauge sort of makes it more fool proof. This isn't a criticism of people who want to try this stuff. Just a reality that isn't like changing a spark plug or oil. Most professional mechanics do not do their own cylinder head work.

Third - your bore gauge is a golden item. Keep it calibrated and you've got one of the best tools for understanding the ID of your guide along it's whole length. I've made due with slip gauges and ball gauges, but would much prefer to have a high quality microbore gauge.

You are on the right track in your thinking about the radius. I have not built a fixture, but the article you shared showed the tool and That is the correct set up. What you can't see is how the tip contacts the stone. It is a very, very small point of contact and so as the rocker comes over center -- it creates a radius. With a few well placed questions to the Dr. -- I suspect you'll have the answer you need. What I would strongly suggest is that you wait on this aspect until you know whether your final valve stem protrusion is over spec. If it is; the doc may be able to help you calculate a revised radius for your application. I haven't done this -- so I can't give you any true advice. The only person I know who has -- is the Doc. I haven't asked Mom9r if he did so -- but it wouldn't surprise me.
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  #102  
Old 19th January 2022
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Most professional mechanics do not do their own cylinder head work.
and
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4) There's a reason head work costs money -- between the tools and the experience, it adds up fast.
I understand your geological position might make finding the right people next to impossible and this is why you are going down this path. I applaud Chuck for his extremely detailed and precise answers. He is giving away experience for free.

And he also mentions that craftsmanship can overcome some problems. The British built hundreds of thousands of bikes after WWII on worn out machinery.
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  #103  
Old 19th January 2022
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Not sure if these are available in Slavic nations or not.

http://www.2040-parts.com/valve-guid...t-set-i399446/

https://www.lislecorp.com/
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  #104  
Old 19th January 2022
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I believe the trock tool has a 1deg tilt built in as well.
Waiting for the doc.
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  #105  
Old 20th January 2022
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Thank you very much, Chuck! I do appreciate all the info that you share and do appreciate the time you spend on writing your posts.

The reason I was going to put a reamer for head bores (I'm using your terminology) in a chuck of a drill press is because I have straight (not spiral) reamers and from my experience they don't perform well unless they are centered to the bore.

Now for fixing guide reamers in a chuck. Yes, they are spiral reamers and are supposed to be rotated by hand. But I had a bad experience with holding a reamer by hand - got a sand watch shape of the guide bore, with .001" difference on diameter between the center of the guide bore and at the end of it. One of the suspects is that I was using used reamers, gonna buy a set of new ones now. I was also using oil with kerosine and now I'm reading that iron guides are supposed to be reamed dry. I'll try to ream the guides with brand new reamers by hand and make measurments.

Thank you for the link - funny it's the place that I've got my Neway valve seat cutters and guides couple of years ago and was going to buy reamers now. There're lots of freight forwarding companies in US, so buing there and shipping to me is not a problem.

Now for the valve stem protrusion - a question I was always afraid to ask, because mine are at 1.461"-1.508", even with larger diameter valves installed. FSM says 1.42" max. Leaving aside a possible contact of valve spring collar with rocker arm "armpit", I do understand from your post that pad profile should be corrected. Are we talking about the size of the radius of the pad or "relocating" the center of the circle that "draws" the pad profile, leaving the same size of a pad radius? Or both?

And from Iron Mike's comment I'm learning that pad surface isn't parralel to rocker arm shaft centerline.

I hated geometry and trigonmetry at school, now they're paying me back)))
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  #106  
Old 20th January 2022
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Originally Posted by RKN View Post
The reason I was going to put a reamer for head bores (I'm using your terminology) in a chuck of a drill press is because I have straight (not spiral) reamers and from my experience they don't perform well unless they are centered to the bore.
Let's split this into two different things -- this question ^^^^^^^^^ and the protrusion question.

With this one -- IF you have a bore problem, it is most likely to be galling in the bore. A ream is the wrong tool to deal with this. Your goal is to only open ID of the bore a tiny amount. Generally, .0005-.001 does it.

Keep in mind, guides are only available commercially to .002 O/S, so you're suddenly having to buy reams for a very specific sizing and starting to box yourself into a corner. It's generally a much better idea to remove as little metal as possible to restore the guide to bore contact (that's really what we're doing here -- a lot more heat escapes via the guide than many people realize).

If you have a bore that is in good shape and has minor galling -- I would prefer to use fluid weld:
https://goodson.com/products/fluid-weld

Don't be fooled by it being an "adhesive." Yes, it has that property, but in this case it helps fill in the "scratches" and promote solid heat transfer to the head casting. For bores that are on the line for being taken oversize, I'd rather use fluid lock.

If you must enlarge the bore -- that's where the rigid hone is a better choice.

Can you do it other ways -- yes.

I'm solely sharing how I go about it and why I make certain decisions.
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  #107  
Old 20th January 2022
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Now for the valve stem protrusion - a question I was always afraid to ask, because mine are at 1.461"-1.508", even with larger diameter valves installed. FSM says 1.42" max. Leaving aside a possible contact of valve spring collar with rocker arm "armpit", I do understand from your post that pad profile should be corrected. Are we talking about the size of the radius of the pad or "relocating" the center of the circle that "draws" the pad profile, leaving the same size of a pad radius? Or both?

And from Iron Mike's comment I'm learning that pad surface isn't parralel to rocker arm shaft centerline.

I hated geometry and trigonmetry at school, now they're paying me back)))
I'm a little confused how you can have the protrusion measurements before doing the guides and seats.

Setting that aside; you observed something very important -- oversize valves don't change the protrusion as much as comments on the internet would have readers believe. There's a few reasons for this -- but understanding the reality of the parts vs. the theory is where you start understanding how to solve your challenge.

Because you are planning to run PB cams, you aren't dealing with lift. Instead, we're now dealing with clearance issues and how things can affect life of parts.

The easiest way to put it is that the excessive protrusion changes where the valve stem contacts the pad -- and how the wiping action of the pad is transferred to the stem in two axis (ie the valve doesn't move straight up and down -- which you discovered by the eccentric valve guide ID). It also means the spring pack will most likely be above a maximum installed height. This directly affects the spring and the control of your valve. At a minimum, you likely need to shim the spring pack to bring it into spec when the protrusion is tall.

For the wiping action; many people assume the right thing to do is to add a shim to the rocker box gasket and "raise" the box by the amount of the excessive protrusion. However, this actually makes the problem worse, not better. Here's an illustration:



So, in dealing with all this -- the most common approach is exactly what you state -- grinding the "armpit" of the rocker arm for clearance, provided everything else is working in your favor.

BUT, grinding the rocker only solves the clearance problem with the upper collar. The wiping action may or may not be correct and may or may not lead to rapid wear. I didn't start to truly understand this until I had the chance to work on several sets of stroker heads the last couple of years that had seen a minimum of 10-20,000 miles. All of the heads had excessive protrusion and the use of overlength R valves didn't help.

What I observed is that the exhaust valves suffered most with the overlength. The guides were worn heavily eccentric and the rocker pads showed pronounced heel wear from the wiping action staring too soon. This was on bikes that had been running original Sifton grinds -- usually .436 or .475 lifts.

Then, I got to the same general protrusion (ie 1.470) but on a stroker that had run P cams its whole life. It was night and day. The same wear patterns were there -- but in far less a pronounced way. Part of this was mileage - part of this was assembly - part of this was the cams and how they beat up parts. The more aggressive Siftons really beat parts -- the stock Ps -- well, they are "nicer" to the parts.

That's the long way of saying you don't "have" to reprofile the rocker pads to take into account your protrusion -- but you can if you wish. If you're already building a fixture and know you have a protrusion problem, you can work around it in this way.

I have not done this and can't help you with the math. I only know it has been done from conversation with the Doc.

Personally, I'm not too scared by protrusion if I've taken into account my cams, the lift, and everything else going on. I recently had the heads off my 78" bike to deal with an oil leak at the drains. As part of the gasket change, I popped the rocker box on the front head because it had excessive protrusion at 1.498 and 1.501. I wanted to see how much wear there was on the rocker pad and valve stem after a bit over 1000 miles. To be honest -- there was no perceptible wear.

I also re-did a top end after 10,000 miles last year. Those heads had protrusion in the 1.465 range and Andrews PB+ cams. There was no excessive wear after those 10,000 miles.

Conversely, I helped two guys in early 2021 who had heads sent out for valve seats. Both came back just below the FSM minimum protrusion and both had problems within a few hundred miles. One guy broke springs because the pack was too compressed (his fault for not measuring) and the other tore up the rocker pad very fast. My non-scientific conclusion is that too short seems to destroy stuff a little bit faster than too tall.

Take that with a grain of salt. Messing with these numbers and the like is outside the normal boundaries. My sample pool is broader than some folks, but is not anywhere near the level of Mom9r or DD on this subject.

I'd do some serious talking with the Doc before you make any decisions on this aspect of your head work.
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  #108  
Old 20th January 2022
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Quote:
For the wiping action; many people assume the right thing to do is to add a shim to the rocker box gasket and "raise" the box by the amount of the excessive protrusion. However, this actually makes the problem worse, not better. Here's an illustration:
Carl McClanahn actually detailed doing just that, shimming the boxes, in his 1984 book, V-Twin Thunder, and claimed it restores rocker arm geometry after installing higher lift cams.

In his defense the book was intended as a guide to building low buck drag racers.

Race engines seldom see the kind of mileage street engines do. You MIGHT do some things knowing full well the engine will "expire" before it becomes an issue.

I myself have never installed those shims but have found them on one engine. It had Leinweber's L3's in it so a given that valve train was beat up. I didn't use the L3's. Actually, never ended up using much of anything from that engine. Mostly junk.
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  #109  
Old 21st January 2022
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Thank you, Chuck!

My protrusion measurment figures came from cutting the seats for 3 sets of heads - they all fall within that range. I've done valve seat cutting on all of them with Neway cutters so I do remember the dimensions. I've PM'd you a couple of years ago on cutting valve seats and you gave me full instructions, so I once again want to thank you for all your help!

My valve spring tester is not functioning now, but I do remember that Sifton 1202 springs (1202, if I remember correctly - 2 springs and aluminum collars) and Kibblewhite .480" lift springs do have a higher seat pressure than the stock ones, which means that a higher valve stem protrusion can be somewhat compensated - in terms of spring pressure.

OK, the valve guide subject is understood now. On the rocker arm geometry - I'm starting to understand that I'm at the beginning of the learning process. With the help of the forum I'm hoping I'll understand it completely.
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