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  #481  
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Originally Posted by 60Gunner View Post
Why do people drink Alcohol? Even knowing they WON'T feel good about themselves the next day. ;p
The legal status of smoking weed has nothing to do with the reasons for using it any more than the legal status for using alcohol explains why people use IT. Remember people still drank during the prohibition era and they weren't hunted down and jailed for it either.
If your argument against it's use is a legal one, I don't understand the reason for your post in this thread.
Legality is the central issue of this thread. I don't think a single person who has posted will argue against a doctor's prescription for THC.

We are talking about drug abuse. Abuse of any drug is a poor choice. If your doctor prescribes a drug be taken once a week and you take it more often, then that is drug abuse. It is illegal. Why should THC be any different?

This whole thread is most likely fueled by money just like alcohol and tobacco industries are fueled by money. Tobacco and Alcohol ads are focused at youth because they are vulnerable to making poor choices. The same is true for cannabis (pot, sh#t,dope, loco weed).

Because children and youth are most at risk I'm strongly against legalizing it's use. That is what adults do, protect those who can't protect themselves and act as an example for others to follow.
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Originally Posted by 1977iron View Post
From my past, I have found that it kills any motivation to do anything. Except smoke more
I believe this is the TRUEST statement made on this thread. And to think , nowadays, the weed has become so much stronger, thru Genetics, than what used to be grown decades ago.
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Originally Posted by Kbetts View Post
Legality is the central issue of this thread. I don't think a single person who has posted will argue against a doctor's prescription for THC.

We are talking about drug abuse. Abuse of any drug is a poor choice. If your doctor prescribes a drug be taken once a week and you take it more often, then that is drug abuse. It is illegal. Why should THC be any different?

Because the medical facts about marijuana do not support the legal ramifications that are imposed upon people who do it.

This has been known for a long time. the largest government study on marijuana concluded this but nixon ignored it because of the immoral (mostly having to do with race) and financial gains to be had.

http://www.drugpolicy.org/blog/how-d...al-first-place


Quote:
During hearings on marijuana law in the 1930’s, claims were made about marijuana’s ability to cause men of color to become violent and solicit sex from white women. This imagery became the backdrop for the Marijuana Tax Act of 1937 which effectively banned its use and sales.
While the Act was ruled unconstitutional years later, it was replaced with the Controlled Substances Act in the 1970’s which established Schedules for ranking substances according to their dangerousness and potential for addiction. Cannabis was placed in the most restrictive category, Schedule I, supposedly as a place holder while then President Nixon commissioned a report to give a final recommendation.
The Schafer Commission, as it was called, declared that marijuana should not be in Schedule I and even doubted its designation as an illicit substance. However, Nixon discounted the recommendations of the commission, and marijuana remains a Schedule I substance.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Originally Posted by Kbetts View Post
This whole thread is most likely fueled by money just like alcohol and tobacco industries are fueled by money. Tobacco and Alcohol ads are focused at youth because they are vulnerable to making poor choices. The same is true for cannabis (pot, sh#t,dope, loco weed).

you are right about the money issue. the biggest opposition to legal marijuana also happens to come from the very institutions that will lose large amounts of money if it is legalized. as Us NEws in this artcle says the biggest fight against marijuana is about money and not public health. https://www.usnews.com/opinion/artic...ir-bottom-line

and i am quoting myself here but you can easily look up this information yourself if you cared to, which most of you obviously do not.


the major players against the legalization of marijuana being .....
Quote:

police unions. they would lose federal awards like Byrne grants, 2.4 billion in 2014 alone, and marijuana-related property forfeitures around 1 billion from 2002 -2012.

private prison corporations. two of the largest private prison corporations make over a billion a year in tax payer funding (and don't forget they are also traded on the market) with the majority of their inmates being petty offenses for drug related possession crimes, mainly marijuana. and the fact that these companies have stocks that are traded on the market based on the amount of people they have in their prisons alone is enough for them to fight marijuana decriminalization.

prison guard unions. this goes almost hand in hand with the reasons private prison corporations fight marijuana legalization. one police union spent over a million just to fight drug sentencing reform for a 10 fold increase in drug offenders going to prisons. AFSCME spent over 13 million in 2012 and 2.7 million in 2013. this makes sense as over 46% of prison offenders are in there for drug offenses, mainly marijuana, the next highest percentage being 17.9% weapons, explosives and arson offenses. so if you just get rid of most of the petty drug offenses you'd lose the need to have so many guards and so many prisons.

big pharma. 18 million lobbying spent against weed alone in 2013 from just one company. it should be obvious what big pharma fears if just one company alone is willing to spend that much against it a year.

alcohol and beer companies. yeah it should be obvious why they don't want marijuana legal.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Originally Posted by Kbetts View Post
Because children and youth are most at risk I'm strongly against legalizing it's use. That is what adults do, protect those who can't protect themselves and act as an example for others to follow.

frankly i think you do not know enough about addiction in general to even make an educated guess. the people at the most risk for addiction are those who have suffered some form of trauma as a child, and that trauma can run a gamut of sources and causes. the research into addiction has shown this time and time again. again i'll quote myself ...
Quote:
addiction can cover a huge gamut of things. it is not just substances that people get addicted to. people can be so addicted to sex, shopping or gambling for example that it destroys their lives and sometimes the lives of those around them. i think people should look into the work of Gabor Mate, one of the worlds leading experts on addiction, and those of his peers who are turning over decades of mythology concerning what addiction is and how it is best treated.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gabor_...A9_(physician)
and those like gabor mate, who unlike you, are actually on the cutting edge of addiction research and what causes addiction (almost invariably some form of trauma) pretty much unanimously agree that the 'war on drugs' in the US has failed exactly because it doesn't address the root cause of addiction at all. https://www.democracynow.org/2011/6/...a_admin_should - Dr. Gabor Maté: Obama Admin Should Heed Global Panel’s Call to End “Failed” U.S.-Led Drug War
Quote:
And therefore, what they recommend is an evidence-based approach, through the social, legal and medical attitudes towards drug use and drug treatment and drug prevention. And they call for what they call is the ending of the criminalization, marginalization and stigmatization of drug users, and they point out, as I have in previous interviews, that most heavy drug users actually are that way because of early childhood trauma.
you on the other hand want to continue a system that research has shown only exacerbates and continues to increase the suffering of those who are addicts and in no way whatsoever actually treats the underlying root cause of addiction, from drug abuse to other types of addiction which are many. maybe if you'd actually look into the research you'd change your mind. but i think you have a confirmation bias to serve. what people like you want to do is completely ignore the research into addiction and its causes and put a bandaid on those who suffer from addiction, leaving a grotesque scar, and not treat the underlying cause at all. because it makes you feel warm and fuzzy inside or some similar bullshit reason not based on evidence and research.

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Originally Posted by tigger View Post

you on the other hand want to continue a system that research has shown only exacerbates and continues to increase the suffering of those who are addicts and in no way whatsoever actually treats the underlying root cause of addiction, from drug abuse to other types of addiction which are many. maybe if you'd actually look into the research you'd change your mind. but i think you have a confirmation bias to serve. what people like you want to do is completely ignore the research into addiction and its causes and put a bandaid on those who suffer from addiction, leaving a grotesque scar, and not treat the underlying cause at all. because it makes you feel warm and fuzzy inside or some similar bullshit reason not based on evidence and research.
Please don't tell me what I want. I don't know you and you really don't have enough information about me to determine my motives or my level of experience, knowledge, and education.

The way I dealt with substance abuse when my child growing up is to CLEARLY LABEL IT AS DANGEROUS, educate, and forbid her to use it. I know she was exposed to other's using it, but I made the consequences of all vices as high as possible. She saw me struggle to quit tobacco that I became addicted to at 14 and realized I was not being a hypocrite.

I didn't lie to her and I'm not lying now. Marijuana is not your friend (generic sense). Even if it were legal, it is still in the category of alcohol and tobacco.... WE DON'T NEED ANY IT TO ENJOY LIFE! It's just another pitfall to avoid. You (generic sense) and those around you will be better off if you just say NO to all of it. Walk away!

Again, adults deal with life's struggles by protecting the weak and innocent from themselves and others and setting and example for others to follow.
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Originally Posted by Kbetts View Post
WE DON'T NEED ANY IT TO ENJOY LIFE! It's just another pitfall to avoid. You (generic sense) and those around you will be better off if you just say NO to all of it. Walk away!
Again, adults deal with life's struggles by protecting the weak and innocent from themselves and others and setting and example for others to follow.



which is exactly what the people at the forefront of addiction research, like gabor mate and others, are doing. the research and evidence they have is leading them to do exactly that; protect the weak by dealing with the root causes of addiction. that is something that the criminal justice system has no concern for in the least. and the research and evidence they have clearly shows that by making marijuana illegal it only exacerbates the problem.
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On any level you care to name, the war on drugs is a failure
- Gabor Mate
-------------------------------------

‘War on Drugs’ Campaign is a Failure, U.N. Report Concludes https://www.healthline.com/health-ne...un-concludes#1

Quote:
All told, the report recommends decriminalizing minor, nonviolent drug offenses as well as strengthening alternatives to jail time and phasing out the use of military forces to enforce drug laws. They also recommend the use of harm-reduction services such as needle exchanges and injection sites, increased health services to prevent the spread of HIV, hepatitis C, and tuberculosis, and reducing the negative impact of drug policy and laws on women.

Standard public health and scientific approaches that should be part of policy making on drugs have been rejected in the pursuit of prohibition,” the Lancet report states. “Drug policy that is dismissive of extensive evidence of its own negative impact and of approaches that could improve health outcomes is bad for all concerned.”
Quote:
“Policies meant to prohibit or greatly suppress drugs present a paradox. They are portrayed and defended vigorously by many policy makers as necessary to preserve public health and safety, and yet the evidence suggests that they have contributed directly and indirectly to lethal violence, communicable disease transmission, discrimination, forced displacement, unnecessary physical pain, and the undermining of people’s right to health,” the Lancet report concludes.
Quote:
However, researchers say these laws are applied with “clear racial biases in policing, arrests, and sentencing,” especially in the U.S., which has the highest incarceration rate of any country in the world.

According to the Federal Bureau of Prisons, 46 percent of all federal prisoners are behind bars for drug offenses. And despite no significant difference in drug use between whites and blacks, black men are more than five times as likely to be imprisoned for drug offenses in their lifetimes.
-----------------------------------------
The 'war on drugs' in numbers: a systematic failure of policy https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...united-nations
-----------------------------------------
America’s War on Drugs Was Designed to Fail. So Why Is It Being Revived Now? https://www.history.com/news/america...ng-revived-now https://www.history.com/news/america...ng-revived-now
-----------------------------------------
Six Reasons The War On Drugs Has Failed https://www.addiction.com/3443/war-on-drugs-failure/
Quote:
In the final analysis, drug abuse is a health problem, not a security problem. Our ongoing refusal to accept this fact has resulted in confused and inefficient policy initiatives that have left the real needs of drug addicts and others turning to drugs to escape from their troubles largely unaddressed. This is tragic and wasteful, and a lot of lives that have been ruined by drugs could have been saved if only we had pursued a more sensible, rational course.
-----------------------------------------
The Failed War on Drugs https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/31/o...-on-drugs.html
-----------------------------------------
The evidence as it stands about why our model of punishment when it comes to drug abuse doesn't address the needs of addicts and exacerbates the problem is clearly shown by the research and evidence. if you actually were concerned you could look up this information and research and evidence yourself. but you and others like you don't give a rats ass about any of that because it doesn't conform to your confirmation bias.

there's alot of things we don't need to enjoy life. i fail to see how that is a valid argument whatsoever. you don't need a car, a motorcycle or a phone to enjoy life.

what would help when it concerns addiction and drug abuse though is good information and an education about the facts of the research and evidence that has been done. something that you still seem to avoid like the plague as it serves your confirmation bias.

and frankly i will tell you the system you support is immoral (as it is focused on money and was started for racially motivated reasons) and leads to more suffering for those who have drug abuse or addiction problems and does not address the root cause of addiction or drug abuse problems in any way shape or form. again this is something you yourself could easily look into, if you actually cared. you're bullshitting yourself.

sorry but what you support is immoral and increases the suffering of those who have addiction problems and there is enough evidence and research that clearly shows this it is a non argument. why don't you try listening to someone who has advanced the study of addiction, understands its causes and also addresses why the system we use doesn't work and makes the problem worse like gabor mate, you just might have your eyes opened.
The Biology, Morality and Politics of Addiction | Dr. Gabor Maté and Stefan Molyneux - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=--Zv...v&index=5&t=0s

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I don't get your point. If you're dealing with addiction, you need medical treatment. Totally different subject.

We are talking about a vice, not cars or coffee....
Vice is a yielding to temptation, a habit that degrades or corrupts. There is nothing pretty or redeeming about marijuana use. Same for the sex trade, gambling, alcohol, tobacco, ... and on and on. You can claim picking your nose is good for you, but it's still a disgusting habit and so is smoking pot.

We all have to face our demons. We all have to control our urges, legal or illegal. Just because you want to something, doesn't mean you should. If you can't control your urges, get help.

Live your life as an example to others. Walk tall. Do the right thing. Live a life that positively impacts the world around you. Leave the next generation free from the wounds of the vice all around us. Just say NO!
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Originally Posted by Toejam503 View Post
I believe this is the TRUEST statement made on this thread. And to think , nowadays, the weed has become so much stronger, thru Genetics, than what used to be grown decades ago.
no. it's a generalized statement that in no way applies to everyone who does it. just like many of the arguments i have seen being made by the opponents who won't or can't take into account all the research and evidence done on the issue because it doesn't conform to their confirmation bias.

i can think of one pretty famous example of someone whom smokes marijuana and is probably more motivated than any person on this forum; elon musk. and that's just one example of a highly motivated person that does it and is extremely successful.



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Originally Posted by Kbetts View Post
I don't get your point. If you're dealing with addiction, you need medical treatment. Totally different subject.

We are talking about a vice, not cars or coffee....
Vice is a yielding to temptation, a habit that degrades or corrupts. There is nothing pretty or redeeming about marijuana use. Same for the sex trade, gambling, alcohol, tobacco, ... and on and on. You can claim picking your nose is good for you, but it's still a disgusting habit and so is smoking pot.

We all have to face our demons. We all have to control our urges, legal or illegal. Just because you want to something, doesn't mean you should. If you can't control your urges, get help.
you don't get my point because you refuse to even look into the evidence that contradicts the bullshit you're saying.

i'm not talking about wanting to do something.

i am talking about the research and evidence that shows that the war on drugs and how it is being handled because it is criminalized is exacerbating the problem and making it worse for people who are addicted.

and the reasons marijuana was made illegal (because of racial control) was disgusting just as much as the reasons it continues to remain illegal (because of those agenices that would lose large amounts of money)


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Originally Posted by Kbetts View Post
Live your life as an example to others. Walk tall. Do the right thing. Live a life that positively impacts the world around you. Leave the next generation free from the wounds of the vice all around us. Just say NO!
you sound more ignorant every time you say crap like this. why don't you live your life as an example and look into the research and evidence that shows the criminal system we have in place is only helping to make the problem worse.

this is exactly just the kind of nancy reagan era 'just say no' bullshit line of thinking, that has been proven doesn't work, that causes more human suffering for those who are prone to addiction. this line of thinking dehumanizes people who are prone to addiction and completely ignores the root cause of addiction itself, which is some form of trauma. and that is exactly what you are doing vomiting nonsense like this, dehumanizing addicts who suffer from trauma that needs to be treated to address the root cause of their issue.

Why "Just Say No" Doesn't Work, A popular program for preventing teen drug use does not help. Here's what doeshttps://www.scientificamerican.com/a...o-doesnt-work/

Nancy Reagan and the negative impact of the 'Just Say No' anti-drug campaign https://www.theguardian.com/society/...pioid-epidemic

Nancy Reagan’s Questionable Legacy of ‘Just Say No’ https://forward.com/sisterhood/33564...f-just-say-no/

and if you cared you could find more on that garbage line of thinking if you took the time to look.

not every person who use drugs, whether it is marijuana, alcohol or caffeine, is abusing drugs or has an addiction. only a small percentage of the people who use any illicit drug has an addiction. and research has shown that invariably addiction is caused by trauma of some sort.

but instead of helping people treat that underlying trauma, people like you would rather bandaid the issue and completely ignore what would help those people.

you continue to ignore any thing that goes against your ideas on the issue. regardless of what the current state of the best medical and psychological research into the matter says.


again .....
Quote:
In the final analysis, drug abuse is a health problem, not a security problem. Our ongoing refusal to accept this fact has resulted in confused and inefficient policy initiatives that have left the real needs of drug addicts and others turning to drugs to escape from their troubles largely unaddressed. This is tragic and wasteful, and a lot of lives that have been ruined by drugs could have been saved if only we had pursued a more sensible, rational course.

you can act like you are righteous all you want. acting like it and being it are two different things. and frankly supporting policies that only continue to cause more human suffering than they alleviate is ethically and morally wrong and so are you if you support those policies. plenty of research shows these policies fail and only make the problem worse. it's sickening. but people like you are losing to better judgement and rationale guided by evidence and research and championed by people like gabor mate who actually care about the welfare of people. and that is a good thing. instead of the pretending you proffer forth.

there are lots of people that genuinely need help to address the root cause of their addictions. not the horseshit you offer.

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The world is full of vices. But who are we to judge? Let people decide for themselves. We educate our children about alcohol, tobacco and safe sex. We learn them to watch out while crossing the street. Boiling water is hot. In certain countries we have to teach children that sharks and crocodiles are dangerous. Most people on this forum live in a country where you can freely buy, sell or use weapons. I'm sure you educate your children about guns as well.

In the Netherlands, drugs are divided into two categories:
List I: Hard drugs: amphetamine, cocaine, codeine, heroin, metamphetamine, morphine, methadone and morphine.
List II: Soft drugs: diazepam, oxazepam, hashish, hemp and mushrooms.

If you get caught dealing or using hard drugs, listed in List I you can end up with 6 months to 12 years imprisonment.

I live in a country where you can buy it freely. Since it was legalized, the crime rate in connection with cannabis went down and we have less people using it since it became legal. Everyone in my country can smoke it every day and as much if he or she wants to. But we don't and it doesn't happen. It's considered as alcohol since it's not an addictive hard drug. You don't drink or smoke cannabis and drive. Same law applies, very simple.

Guess who's visiting the Amsterdam coffee shops mostly? Tourists from countries where it's prohibited.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/m...most-cannabis/
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Iree ought to be proud. Not many subjects can stay relevant on a forum for seven years.

As to the subject, I do not use it. I've seen a lot that most people don't even know exists. My personal opinion is that legalizing cannabis is not only advisable, but recommended.

Most of the societal problems stemming from "drugs" is due to them only being available by empowering and enriching high level criminals. Many of the user level problems stem from them having to hide their use for fear of arrest. Legalization solves both - immediately. (for this substance at least.)

Alcohol is responsible for more community problems by a long, long measure! Whatever negative attributes may be associated with this cannot compare to the negative attributes of alcohol. I could go on but the point is, a society that embraces alcohol as much as we do is tee totally hypocritical in banning cannabis for ANY reason other than an unwarranted (by comparison) bias. Very simply, there is nothing you can say about cannabis that cannot be said about alcohol. Are there risks? You bet, but we've accepted them and the repercussions of those risks. The empowerment of the criminal element by the (black) market created by illegality mirrors that of "prohibition." In fact it was (re)legalizing alcohol that prompted many criminal enterprises to switch to drugs.

Then there is the tax attraction... Politically, THAT is what's behind this legalization trend. If you don't believe that, you are only fooling yourself.
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Legal to grow and possess
Must be 18 for either
Illegal to sell.
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