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  #181  
Old 3 Days Ago
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I've ever measured the thickness of the cases there. The bearing should fit "fairly" close to the end of the shaft once installed. You should have full contact between the needles in the bearing and the shat itself.
When the bearing is properly installed the inside lip comes pretty close to the edge of the case. I'm used to seeing a fairly even boss at the inside of the case.
So your case thickness at that point should only be 1/4" or so thicker than the bearing.

I'm still guessing the problems you had don't lie there. Correct shifting and engagement depend on correct end float on the shafts, correct spacing on the gears.
You seem to have spent a good deal of time and effort on those points - they should have been OK.
And to start with, it was all good. Something changed. I understand the end float on the M/S increased. That shouldn't have happened.
Once I had the box on the bench I would have rechecked the spacing. First thing. You night have done this ?
Good shifting also relies on those gears that are free to turn on the shafts (not splined) being able to spin freely.Sometimes the spacer between C/S drive and 2nd are a tight fit and can be driven down to tight on the 2nd gear.
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  #182  
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paulc paulc is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ferrous Head View Post
I've ever measured the thickness of the cases there. The bearing should fit "fairly" close to the end of the shaft once installed. You should have full contact between the needles in the bearing and the shat itself.
When the bearing is properly installed the inside lip comes pretty close to the edge of the case. I'm used to seeing a fairly even boss at the inside of the case.
So your case thickness at that point should only be 1/4" or so thicker than the bearing.

I'm still guessing the problems you had don't lie there. Correct shifting and engagement depend on correct end float on the shafts, correct spacing on the gears.
You seem to have spent a good deal of time and effort on those points - they should have been OK.
And to start with, it was all good. Something changed. I understand the end float on the M/S increased. That shouldn't have happened.
Once I had the box on the bench I would have rechecked the spacing. First thing. You night have done this ?
Good shifting also relies on those gears that are free to turn on the shafts (not splined) being able to spin freely.Sometimes the spacer between C/S drive and 2nd are a tight fit and can be driven down to tight on the 2nd gear.
A recheck of spacing on disassembly was all good. It was only the M/S endplay that was different. Gears seemed to be turning freely as well.

I've ordered some Bondloc B641 to use around the new bearing as the spec seems to fit this job and the bearing can still be removed later. As it sets in 10-15 minutes I will need to do a lot of measuring first to work out exactly where I want the bearing to end up. As my case doesn't seem to be stock on the boss inside or on the outside that will be interesting. Might make up a dummy cardboard bearing shell to help figure it out, as well as measuring as Iron Mike suggests. Useful to know now how the shaft should sit inside the bearing. Knowing measurements from a stock case would be useful as well as iron Mike suggested. Needs someone with the correct cases & trapdoor handy though so unlikely i guess.
With hindsight if I had changed the right side bearing the first time, rather than just the trapdoor ones, I would have got all this sorted then rather than merrily carry on not knowing the bearing was in wrongly and that there has been a strange repair done in the past. Interesting learning with a non stock case
Will start measuring up for the bearing placement on Friday.
Paul
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  #183  
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Originally Posted by paulc View Post
The picture is deceptive maybe, there don't seem to be any loose flaps, what is there seems solid. I have removed the burr ready for a new bearing. The top part of the bore, underneath the M/S, is smooth and the best part of it by a long way so from what you say I'm in luck there. The bearing was in tight, and no metal from the bore came out with it.
What loctite would you use on the bearing, to hold it but still allow it to be replaced in the future? I'm still puzzled that my calculations tell me the end of the C/S will be a fair way from the blind end of the bearing when I fit everything where it should be rather than with the blind end bearing too far into the case as it was before.
I have done some work on the shift shaft as suggested:
Now I need to do some reading before I take the tower apart to clean it all up and check the springs.
Paul
In that picture of the bearing bore there is a flap of metal near the center of the bore that is sticking up enough that light is shining on it.

The area of the bore that is most critical is opposite from the mainshaft,
away from it not towards it.
The pressure under power will be trying to push the two shafts apart.

The bearing should sit ~.020" below the surface the thrust washer rides on.
This is to allow oil trapped by the notch to fill the bearing.

At some time in it's life that bearing was controlling the end play of the countershaft because of the wear mark on the closed end where the shaft was hitting it.

Red locktite will release with some propane heat, green locktite will cement it in place, blue locktite will just seal it without much holding power.
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  #184  
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Been meaning to say Ferrous - when i lived in Queensland, in Brisbane, I used to take my 76 to Rollies Speed Shop sometimes for work. They were a good bunch in those days (early 90s) and I see they are still open. When I rode from Brisbane over to Perth they helped prep the bike beforehand and, in those pre mobile phone and internet days, told me to phone them if I got stuck & needed any parts enroute and they'd get them to me.
Paul
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  #185  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ryder rick View Post
In that picture of the bearing bore there is a flap of metal near the center of the bore that is sticking up enough that light is shining on it.

The area of the bore that is most critical is opposite from the mainshaft,
away from it not towards it.
The pressure under power will be trying to push the two shafts apart.

The bearing should sit ~.020" below the surface the thrust washer rides on.
This is to allow oil trapped by the notch to fill the bearing.

At some time in it's life that bearing was controlling the end play of the countershaft because of the wear mark on the closed end where the shaft was hitting it.

Red locktite will release with some propane heat, green locktite will cement it in place, blue locktite will just seal it without much holding power.
Thanks ryder rick, I'll use .020 as my start point for measuring things up.
I see what you mean about the flap, does look like one in the pic. When I ran my finger over it, and when looking up close, it seemed ok, will have another good look before putting a bearing in and remove if in doubt.
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  #186  
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my point I was trying to accomplish with the request for case measurements was to determine the location of the thrust surface of the c/s and the exterior face compared to a unrepaired stock situation. I must have been looking at another recent trans thread and thought your brg was proud towards the outside of case and flush with the inner thrust surface. This is not your case as I look back over the pics. My original thought was that the Po machined some material off of the outer surface, leaving insufficient material to support the entire length of the brg.
On another note, clutch working ok? In 200 miles, looks like those new dogs are already taking a beating
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  #187  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paulc View Post
...Needs someone with the correct cases & trapdoor handy though so unlikely i guess.

If anyone knows whether my ‘68 XLCH has the same cases / door, I’d be happy to take any measurements for you Paul, mine is apart on the bench, right side c/s bearing removed. I suspect it’s different but I’m still picking stuff up about the changes and variations.
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  #188  
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The surface of the case for the bearing on the outside is flush with the flange that the sprocket seal screws too
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  #189  
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Originally Posted by DirtyHarry68 View Post
If anyone knows whether my ‘68 XLCH has the same cases / door, I’d be happy to take any measurements for you Paul, mine is apart on the bench, right side c/s bearing removed. I suspect it’s different but I’m still picking stuff up about the changes and variations.
you should have the same basic dimensions from inside door surface to inside right case half surface. example - the counter shaft spans '54 to e'84. and i suspect was relatively unchanged until the end of the 4 speeds in '90.
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  #190  
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Have done some measuring, most of this is approx as I don't have the tools or skill to be 100% accurate but it is close enough I think to work out where the new bearing should go.
The outside of the right case C/S bearing boss is not even the way it has been machined. I get a variation of 0.040 in bore depth across multiple measurements, I'll call it 0.900 as that is the shortest.
With trapdoor fitted I pushed a piece of steel round bar through the bore until it hit the outside edge of the bearing bore in the trapdoor - 4.900 inches.
So that makes inside of right case bearing bore to inside of trapdoor bearing bore 4 inches exactly.
New bearing measures 0.740 external, 0.660 internal
New trapdoor bearings are in place now (thanks yoshi). C/S one is checked as correct distance from inside of trapdoor. With trapdoor fitted and C/S in place (pushed as far to the left as it would go) distance from right end of C/S to outside of bore is 0.320.

So my calculations/thoughts are this:
Fit the new bearing so that the outside of the blind end is 0.130 inside the bore. Not flush like when all is stock but less than it was before. That would leave the front edge of the bearing 0.030 inside the bore so allow space for oil flow and keep the bearing away from the thrust washer.
The end of the C/S would then be 0.550 inside the new blind bearing so 0.110 away from the inside bearing edge.
So my guess is that my bearing bore is a different depth to stock as leaving the bearing blind end flush with the outside of the bore would mean that the end of the C/S was 0.240 away from the inside edge of the bearing which seems too far as it's a 1/3 of the rollers.
Hopefully this all makes sense, and adds up correctly
Paul
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