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Sportster Motorcycle Transmission, Clutch, Primary & Secondary Drive Transmission, Clutch and primary or secondary drive problems, advice, and/or how tos.

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  #11  
Old 4th July 2022
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OK, I have said this a bunch but it begs repeating.

Clutches go out of adjustment due to WEAR, and wear always causes slip.

Anything that causes grab is a mechanical problem. The throwout bearing going away is a known culprit, the spring plate is another. You will find that in some cases a failing cable can do it.

Adjustments to a grabbing clutch can only serve to get you home so you can tear it down to find the broken part.

Your specific complaint is typical spring plate. It keeps giving varying sumptoms of grab at different places in the travel. That is because when you pull the lever you separate the plates and the debris from the failing spring plate falls between the plates and now they are mechanically thicker due to the debris. That junk can be anywhere and the plates will be cocked as well as grabbing on the debris.

Just always remember if it starts grabbing that is NEVER plate wear. It is always a problem that involves failing parts somewhere in there. In older Fords it was typically the throwout arm pivot bracket that would crack and bend to where this would happen. In some cars I have seen clutch plates where the friction material became separated from the plate and folded over to double it's thickness in places.

If yours is a throwout bearing you will find that it is somewhat predictable as to how you view it. It starts grabbing, but it is consistent grab, it doesn't change like a spring plate does with shifting junk inside. So you can readjust and it will start grabbing again quickly, because once they get that far worn out they wear faster. I had one failing on a day with a lot of city riding to jobs. I kept adjusting as it was getting worse and finally made it to the shop where I always keep spares. I was pushing my luck and it could have failed completely at any time but it made it home.
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  #12  
Old 4th July 2022
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Originally Posted by IXL2Relax View Post
Diet Dr Pepper - Tastes as good as the sugar version - Kind of a spicy flavor...

Less sweet flavor than Coke - Less bitter flavor than Pepsi.

Or try your local brand of Grape Soda...


You might even find that a 1.5 liter bottle works better to fit tightly against the filter - But I've never tried that - and you do need some room to get your fingers in between the filter & the bottle to spin it off.




I've been ruminating on that while riding.

My initial check for the clutch cable being stretched or damaged at one end was allayed by the fact that the clutch lever operated the B&R assembly from stop to stop - as I would expect it to do.

And my examination of the B&R and the Release Bearing (while still in place) did not produce any clear evidence of a problem.

For now, I'm chalking it up to the simple fact I was ignoring that the clutch was dragging and the friction plates have worn enough to require an adjustment. The clutch operation seems normal for the time being, now that I readjusted the B&R tighter to the clutch.

However, I'm not fully satisfied with that, so I'm cautiously paying attention to the clutch operation as I go forward (pun intended)... If anything more occurs that seems out of normal, I'll have to dig into the primary and see what else I find.


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And there you have it. The copy above that I highlighted in red shows the common misconception. Wear makes the plates thinner, never thicker. So wear of the plates can only result in slip.
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  #13  
Old 4th July 2022
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wedge View Post
And there you have it. The copy above that I highlighted in red shows the common misconception. Wear makes the plates thinner, never thicker. So wear of the plates can only result in slip.
You are definitely correct - with wear, the clutch pack gets thinner and the B&R position will hold the pressure plate out. This begins to keep the steels & frictions apart, causing slipping.

I was trying to get my thinking (and mental vision) around what was specifically happening, but couldn't quite get to the point of seeing a failing spring plate. Once I had a concept of the spring plate being held EXPANDED, then it became an embraceable idea.

And your admonition regarding wear causing slipping, also makes sense, as the result of a thinner clutch pack.

Thanks for chiming in...


Hopefully the existing steels and frictions are still usable (with the addition of two other used steels & a friction) to restore my clutch function - along with installing the other parts I have in hand.

I'll be checking the spring plate for visible signs of failure - and checking the steels & frictions for abnormal wear.


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  #14  
Old 4th July 2022
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Originally Posted by IXL2Relax View Post
Once I had a concept of the spring plate being held EXPANDED, then it became an embraceable idea.
The spring plate doesn't usually get "held expanded". Pieces of the rivets get between the plates and make the pack thicker.

Consider putting a 7200B release bearing in while it's apart. It's the other random failure piece in the clutch.
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  #15  
Old 5th July 2022
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Originally Posted by IXL2Relax View Post
This begins to keep the steels & frictions apart, causing slipping.




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Actually that junk is what is causing the grabbing, not slipping. The broken rivets get between plates and then even when you pull the lever all the way to the grip the clutch is still trying to pull you through an intersection.

Another thing you will notice when you tear it down is that the surfaces of the spring plate will look just fine, and the heads of the broken rivets will look fine too. If you had looked very carefully at the plate an hour before it blew apart it would have looked like a normal spring plate with no visible wear. They don't break from the rivet heads wearing down, they break from stress cracks in the middle of the rivets where you can't see it happening.

Which is why everyone in here at one time or another has advised that they be replaced as soon as possible just5 to avoid the mess that you will now find in your basket.

What you will need is a set of jewelers files and you will need to very carefully remove any raised burrs on the edges of the splines on both the basket and the hub. There will be a ring around the center of the basket and hub both from the rivets gouging them up. Do NOT take off more material than necessary to get rid of the high raised burrs. The gouges will remain and smoothing them out only removes metal that you need to leave there. The plates will over time smooth out their own path and shifting will improve some but you will always feel some drag finding neutral to remind you of this. Because those rivets were loose in there, you will most likely not be able to save all the plates. I would recommend you get an energy one extra plate kit and their tool for compressing the spring is good if you do not have one already. The extra strength spring is a good thing too. Don't use synthetic oil in the primary with Kevlar plates. Standard Dino 20-50 oil is best to keep the inherent slip from Kevlar under control because synthetic is too slippery in conjunction with Kevlar.

+1 on the 7200B throwout bearing. Buy two and keep a spare on hand.
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  #16  
Old 12th July 2022
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I've been busy with other stuff, but I finally started to work on the clutch. I got the cover off.

Here's a picture of the parts I bought more than two years ago to do this work.


New Parts On Hand:
39975-90A - Upgraded Primary Chain Adjuster Shoe ($21.85)
33656-90A - Upgraded Detent Plate ($6.10)
34483-90 -- Spring for Detent Arm ($1.51)
11019 ----- Small Spring E-Clip - for detent plate ($1.70)
11000101 -- Shifter Shaft Seal (prev 7019) ($2.84)
11046 ----- Snap Ring - for Clutch Release Assy (??)
FAG 7200B-TVP - Upgraded Angular Release Bearing ($22)
plus a Primary Cover Gasket from James - w/several other seals

I know some of the parts are probably not required to be replaced, but after 40,000 miles and a minimal cost for breakable moving parts, it makes sense to simply replace them now while it's open. I included the prices I had handy, because I suspect those prices have gone up.

In the above picture the TOP SHOE is the old version - bottom one is the NEW Heavy Duty Plate version. In the below picture --- well, it's pretty obvious which is the old one.


I'll take a few more pictures once I get the clutch plates out.



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  #17  
Old 4 Weeks Ago
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And, the saga continues - The dastardly Spring Plate caught up to me (after I procrastinated)...


I was hoping to simply add two steels & one friction and go forward. But, some of the existing frictions were damaged - at least both sides from the spring plate. I checked with my local stealer-dealer & the cost of EACH STOCK FRICTION PLATE was $30+. CRAZY! I relented on my plans after seeing that.


I intend to keep riding for another 40K miles so I embraced the forum wisdom of installing an extra plate kit (Energy One) from Hammer Performance. At least that kit comes with a full set of both Steels & Frictions and a new 15%+ Clutch Diaphragm Spring. It's on the way so I will be working on installing my shifter parts in the meantime.

Here's a comparison between my 1994 Clutch Diaphragm Spring plate (stock 883 & 1200) & one from a 2006 stock 883. The 2004-later 883 models were designed with less pressure to help make the clutch lever easier to pull. I'm planning to put back my 1994 version, but I'll check out the new spring to see if that's better (or similar).


More pics and info as I move forward with this repair.


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Last edited by IXL2Relax; 4 Weeks Ago at 01:20..
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  #18  
Old 4 Weeks Ago
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I pulled my spring plate out of my 1995 883, and put in two steels and a friction. I already had the steels, but $28 for a single friction plate is madness. Mine only had 5K on it, but after seeing your pics, I feel glad that I did remove it.
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Good thing you didn't price a new clutch spring plates. Your 30$ fibre plate will have look cheap. You actually need two steel plate and one friction plate.
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Good thing you didn't price a new clutch spring plates. Your 30$ fibre plate will have look cheap.
A new OE spring (aka grenade) plate is $37 from Surdyke. I spent ~$60 dollars on the XR pieces. I regret not putting in the XR pieces went I first put in a Barnett Kevlar extra plate disc pack.

An E-1 +15% diaphragm spring is worth considering. It actually gives a nicer lever pull than an OE 1200 spring. There's engineering involved in diaphragm springs, getting them to give a decreasing rate pull at the clutch lever or clutch pedal. E-1 got it right, Harley didn't.
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