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Sportster Motorcycle Transmission, Clutch, Primary & Secondary Drive Transmission, Clutch and primary or secondary drive problems, advice, and/or how tos.

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  #21  
Old 8th April 2019
THEWILDONE THEWILDONE is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wedge View Post
I would say NO.

The basic principal here is to start by loosening the cable a lot. Then you make the adjustment with the screw. Be sure you really have the contact point by playing with the screw a few times and feeling that when you feel contact and you keep turning past that contact, then you are opening the clutch plates. Once you have the contact point feel, then get to that contact point and back off the screw 1/4 turn (I prefer a slight bit more than 1/4 turn, close to 3/8 turn). Then adjust the cable to where the clutch engages about half way from full pull to the grip and totally released lever. That's it, and it's a bit subjective. The amount of free play is really unimportant compared to the correct operation of the clutch. If you have way too much free play, then it will grab very close to the grip, and cause trouble like you seem to have now. If you have way less free play (like it sounds as you may have) you risk holding the clutch open when things heat up. That will appear as slip on an uphill grade. It caused a friend of mine to call me from the Baker grade to tell me that we didn't get his tune up right because he had no HP on the hill. (He always liked to have very little free play like dime or nickel size). I told him to back off his cable and he flew up over the Baker grade. Seems all his HP came back.

My point here, and I do actually have one is that if you play with the screw and feel and observe what it is doing, and if you leave a tad more slop in that screw adjustment, then the cable will keep your engagement point where it needs to be over a longer period of time with only cable adjustments. The reason is that the screw adjustment adjusts total mechanical play at the clutch, and the cable takes some of that away to get you to where you need to be.

That said, if you put way too much free play in at the screw, you will end up with the ramp turning through a bad part of it's arc and that will limit the throw of the ramp.

Stiff spring shouldn't affect any of this by the way.
Well I was talking more like rough guidline for freeplay of the cable itself up on the bars. But yeah I hear what you're saying. Everything seems OK with the new-new TOB in there.
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  #22  
Old 15th April 2019
THEWILDONE THEWILDONE is offline
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The clutch isn't disengaging fully. Again. The main thing is it's hard to find neutral at a stop. MOSTLY noticeable once it's warmed up.

Primary is filled just to the bottom of clutch basket.
Primary chain adjusted per service manual.
Clutch adjusted at derby cover and cable per service manual.
New TOB, Barnett extra plate clutch kit and Diaphragm spring with maybe 10,000 miles at most?
I removed the snap ring on the release mechanism and the ramps and ball bearings are perfect.

I'm going to try backing the adjuster off 1/2 turn instead of 1/4 and see what that does.

Otherwise I guess I'll just deal with it until it's time to change the primary oil again and take the basket apart again....

I'm getting pretty damn good at getting the primary off and on quickly.
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  #23  
Old 15th April 2019
THEWILDONE THEWILDONE is offline
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UPDATE:

I went in to check the adjustment in the derby cover like I said and the point at which the TOB screw begins to have the light drag that the manual calls for had changed!!!

So, I adjusted it again, staying with the 1/4 turn the manual calls for and it seems ok now??? Goes into neutral very easy after that.... Bike has cooled off a bit from the last post but still pretty warm...

I wonder if it was just necessary to adjust everything again as it has "seated"?

I should also mention that I have been turning the adjusting screw back and forth a few times to make sure the point at which it grabs is consistent.... I should ask, how much drag should you feel??? I wonder if I have been not turning the adjuster screw in quite far enough?

Next time I'm in the primary or even changing the oil I will probably go ahead and tear the clutch basket down just to see..... I'm THINKING everything in there ought to be good since it's so new and it is the Barnett kit that eliminates the goofy riveted piece that Harley uses.... But I have the clutch tool anyways so why not??

Thanks guys. Hopefully this is it for this one. This time lol.
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  #24  
Old 16th April 2019
THEWILDONE THEWILDONE is offline
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Rode about 50 miles today in various conditions. Clutch is working excellently. Toes up into neutral very easy when at a stop.

I can tell when the clutch is working as it should because the engagement point is much higher up OFF of the grips/bars when it is performing correctly.

This seems to indicate, to me at least, that I am missing something maybe as far as the clutch adjustment.

Which would be more likely to cause some of the disengagement issues I've had AND the hard finding neutral? Having backed the TOB adjuster screw off TOO far or, NOT far enough??

I know this is a simple clutch setup, but I'm hoping some of you guys might shed some light on the question above so that I may better understand the mechanics of the clutch release here.
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  #25  
Old 16th April 2019
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I would guess at "not enough" but good to hear it's all working again.
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  #26  
Old 16th April 2019
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The link in Post#2 has a detailed description of the adjuster function along with images...

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  #27  
Old 16th April 2019
Four Speed Four Speed is offline
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You might want to recheck the primary tension as well; noting the tension at any tight spots.

I found that fitting the alternative 7200 angular contact bearing can help with getting consistent feel at the clutch lever. If you fit one, best buy one from a authorised bearing distributor, as there are some poor quality ones out there.
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  #28  
Old 16th April 2019
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Quote:
Originally Posted by THEWILDONE View Post
UPDATE:

I went in to check the adjustment in the derby cover like I said and the point at which the TOB screw begins to have the light drag that the manual calls for had changed!!!

So, I adjusted it again, staying with the 1/4 turn the manual calls for and it seems ok now??? Goes into neutral very easy after that.... Bike has cooled off a bit from the last post but still pretty warm...

I wonder if it was just necessary to adjust everything again as it has "seated"?

I should also mention that I have been turning the adjusting screw back and forth a few times to make sure the point at which it grabs is consistent.... I should ask, how much drag should you feel??? I wonder if I have been not turning the adjuster screw in quite far enough?

Next time I'm in the primary or even changing the oil I will probably go ahead and tear the clutch basket down just to see..... I'm THINKING everything in there ought to be good since it's so new and it is the Barnett kit that eliminates the goofy riveted piece that Harley uses.... But I have the clutch tool anyways so why not??

Thanks guys. Hopefully this is it for this one. This time lol.
This is where having played with the adjusting screw for while is handy. All you need to do is develop a mental picture of exactly what is happening mechanically.

Turn the screw to the contact point, then just for kicks, keep turning the screw. You will actually feel the pressure build as the screw pushes the pressure plate away from the plates (back towards you). It doesn't take much (maybe a half turn under pressure) for the plates to separate and you will have 5 neutrals. Total slip, to where a friend called me one day to say he had a broken trans. So you just need to play with that screw until you can mentally see and physically feel where that screw has taken all the slop out and has not yet started to move the pressure plate.

Note: experimenting with 1/2 turn is going too far. I played with this over and over and find that just a tad past 1/4 turn works best. If you go to 1/2 turn, the arm travels in a different part of the arc and does not get the correct amount of travel (ramp action), which will make it not want to release (Less adjustment range).

It seems like you are there now anyway, but next time play with it a bit more to cement that feel down.
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  #29  
Old 17th April 2019
THEWILDONE THEWILDONE is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by harley506d View Post
I would guess at "not enough" but good to hear it's all working again.
Yes, thankfully!

Quote:
Originally Posted by IXL2Relax View Post
The link in Post#2 has a detailed description of the adjuster function along with images...
Thanks for the input and help eveyone, I appreciate it!. I know you guys must get a lot of the same repetitive bullshit questions that are answered over and over in one form or another, be it here on the forum or on sportsterpedia et al. I really need to hear/read/see something several times in order for me to understand it and commit it to memory.

I have been really studying the section of the sportsterpedia regarding clutch info like you posted early in the thread.... It's starting to make more sense, the graphics help as I am very much a visual learner above all else.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Four Speed View Post
You might want to recheck the primary tension as well; noting the tension at any tight spots.

I found that fitting the alternative 7200 angular contact bearing can help with getting consistent feel at the clutch lever. If you fit one, best buy one from a authorised bearing distributor, as there are some poor quality ones out there.
Well, I have to admit, I believe I have been adjusting the primary chain to be a little bit too tight.... Could have contributed to what I have been experiencing. I loosened up the primary chain so that I can push it up and the top of the chain is about even with the opening in the primary cover at the chain inspection hole.... Seems to be good so far.... This is roughly 3/8 to 1/2 inch I believe.... The bike seems more peppy with the primary chain looser, guess I shouldn't be surprised though. I'm thinking if anything, it's better to have the chain a little on the loose side vs on the tight side.


Quote:
Originally Posted by wedge View Post
This is where having played with the adjusting screw for while is handy. All you need to do is develop a mental picture of exactly what is happening mechanically.

Turn the screw to the contact point, then just for kicks, keep turning the screw. You will actually feel the pressure build as the screw pushes the pressure plate away from the plates (back towards you). It doesn't take much (maybe a half turn under pressure) for the plates to separate and you will have 5 neutrals. Total slip, to where a friend called me one day to say he had a broken trans. So you just need to play with that screw until you can mentally see and physically feel where that screw has taken all the slop out and has not yet started to move the pressure plate.

Note: experimenting with 1/2 turn is going too far. I played with this over and over and find that just a tad past 1/4 turn works best. If you go to 1/2 turn, the arm travels in a different part of the arc and does not get the correct amount of travel (ramp action), which will make it not want to release (Less adjustment range).

It seems like you are there now anyway, but next time play with it a bit more to cement that feel down.
Well said. The only thing I can guess is I have not really developed a solid feel for what the adjustment should feel like, as you mentioned... What puzzles me is the last time I went in there the adjustment point at which you could feel it grab had changed....

I picked up a good tidbit from the sportsterpedia that mentioned squeezing the clutch lever a few times to seat everything before adjusting that... I'll have to remember that next time. Maybe that's what happened here this time, I set it and it wasn't quite right, but riding around a bit and operating the clutch lever seated the TOB and therefore made the correct adjustment obtainable.




Weather is decent here so I was able to go on another ride ~50 miles or so and it is still working wonderfully! Man how I love the positive engagment feel and sound of a Harley dogbox transmission. THUNK!
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  #30  
Old 17th April 2019
THEWILDONE THEWILDONE is offline
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And the subjective part. How much tension should one feel when turning the adjuster screw in???

I have been very lightly gripping a screwdriver between thumb and pointer and as soon as I feel it touch, I then turn it back the other way 1/4 turn.... Perhaps I should be turning the adjuster screw in a little farther than I have? I have noticed that it can be turned farther in past the point of where you can feel it initially touch, and the drag is still very minimal.
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