The Sportster and Buell Motorcycle Forum - The XLFORUM®
 

Go Back   The Sportster and Buell Motorcycle Forum - The XLFORUM® > SPORTSTER MOTORCYCLE FORUM > Sportster Motorcycle Era Specific and Model Specific > Ironhead Sportster Motorcycle Talk (1957-1985)
XLF Blogs XLF Arcade XLF Disclaimer/Privacy Statement/Terms Of Use

Notices

Ironhead Sportster Motorcycle Talk (1957-1985) For all those that wanna talk about Ironhead Sportster Motorcycles

Active Threads
0 2001 sportster oil line question
Last Post: bustert
Posted On: 3 Minutes Ago
Replies: 3
Views: 109
0 Do not buy this oil!
Last Post: boomerguy
Posted On: 4 Minutes Ago
Replies: 58
Views: 2,269
0 Issues with progressive springs
Last Post: APJ CUSTOMS
Posted On: 14 Minutes Ago
Replies: 5
Views: 74
0 Cam chest vent fitting
Last Post: bustert
Posted On: 14 Minutes Ago
Replies: 3
Views: 254
5 1200 or 883
Last Post: Folkie
Posted On: 16 Minutes Ago
Replies: 1,240
Views: 366,019
0 What did you do for your sporty Today?
Last Post: boomerguy
Posted On: 18 Minutes Ago
Replies: 7,209
Views: 1,058,964
0 top end rebuild
Last Post: Ferrous Head
Posted On: 20 Minutes Ago
Replies: 85
Views: 4,573
0 Vulcan Mid Glide Triple Tree Conversion Set
Last Post: Dariusz
Posted On: 24 Minutes Ago
Replies: 4
Views: 137
0 Sportster 48 in a Nighster
Last Post: Dariusz
Posted On: 26 Minutes Ago
Replies: 4
Views: 122
0 Keep & Kill
Last Post: Graywolf
Posted On: 37 Minutes Ago
Replies: 18,427
Views: 1,094,522
0 Ironhead Exhaust Poll
Last Post: Ferrous Head
Posted On: 41 Minutes Ago
Replies: 196
Views: 56,036
0 Hot Chicks on Hot Bikes
Last Post: Graywolf
Posted On: 48 Minutes Ago
Replies: 11,230
Views: 2,230,437
0 Iree's late night cafe
Last Post: ~Grind~
Posted On: 56 Minutes Ago
Replies: 1,740
Views: 240,007
0 Shock search is OVER !!!
Last Post: XL1275
Posted On: 57 Minutes Ago
Replies: 2
Views: 64
0 Early Sportster XLCH 900 Dyno Run
Last Post: Heff
Posted On: 1 Hour Ago
Replies: 114
Views: 32,881
0 Oil leaking
Last Post: Zari
Posted On: 1 Hour Ago
Replies: 22
Views: 899
0 IH Crankcase Pressure and Engine Breathing
Last Post: thefrenchowl
Posted On: 2 Hours Ago
Replies: 101
Views: 4,542
0 excellent color
Last Post: mick42
Posted On: 2 Hours Ago
Replies: 13
Views: 695
0 Official XL Forum Random Image Thread (NO NUDITY!)
Last Post: Stairman
Posted On: 2 Hours Ago
Replies: 48,661
Views: 7,874,028
0 Food porn
Last Post: Stairman
Posted On: 3 Hours Ago
Replies: 2,122
Views: 423,237
0 Hottie of the day, no nudity.
Last Post: Stairman
Posted On: 3 Hours Ago
Replies: 23,324
Views: 2,379,171
0 Clutch blow up
Last Post: Tonimacaroni
Posted On: 5 Hours Ago
Replies: 14
Views: 386
0 New oil tank
Last Post: npaisnel
Posted On: 5 Hours Ago
Replies: 127
Views: 5,977
0 weight loss thread
Last Post: catpepper
Posted On: 6 Hours Ago
Replies: 67
Views: 25,638
0 Transformer XR1200
Last Post: Davo_137
Posted On: 6 Hours Ago
Replies: 486
Views: 56,044
0 My frist question...Fork seal replacement
Last Post: brucstoudt
Posted On: 7 Hours Ago
Replies: 10
Views: 412
0 Fork seal follow up...Stop me if I'm being stupid.
Last Post: brucstoudt
Posted On: 7 Hours Ago
Replies: 4
Views: 159
0 my daily driver
Last Post: 84rzv500r
Posted On: 10 Hours Ago
Replies: 3
Views: 1,198
0 my sunday driver...
Last Post: 84rzv500r
Posted On: 11 Hours Ago
Replies: 10
Views: 3,313
0 compression test question
Last Post: sportsterdoc
Posted On: 11 Hours Ago
Replies: 15
Views: 203
More...
Members Birthdays
seajay, Hugh Betcha (74), jimhd89 (71), JayFL459 (71), Big Al (64), dakota_dj (63), 10walt (61), kiltbill (61), timsvalk (60), horsewriter (55), Benetampa (43), hobson8494 (36), Joker8494 (36), 8ball (31)
Reply
 
Share Thread Tools Display Modes
  #21  
Old 2 Weeks Ago
doodah man's Avatar
doodah man doodah man is online now
Senior Master Custom Bike Builder
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: 37° 25' 28" N by -80° 03' 42" W
Posts: 10,949
Sportster/Buell Model: XLCH
Sportster/Buell Year: 1975
Reputation: 859293
doodah man has a reputation beyond reputedoodah man has a reputation beyond reputedoodah man has a reputation beyond reputedoodah man has a reputation beyond reputedoodah man has a reputation beyond reputedoodah man has a reputation beyond reputedoodah man has a reputation beyond reputedoodah man has a reputation beyond reputedoodah man has a reputation beyond reputedoodah man has a reputation beyond reputedoodah man has a reputation beyond repute
Default

Awesome diagrams, thanks for taking the time to create them!
__________________
"when you don't know where you're going, any road'll take you there"
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 2 Weeks Ago
Hippysmack's Avatar
Hippysmack Hippysmack is offline
XL FORUM TEAM MEMBER
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 6,603
Sportster/Buell Model: Xl1250S
Sportster/Buell Year: 98
Other Motorcycle Model: Kawasaki Vulcan 500
Other Motorcycle Year: 95
Reputation: 6529417
Hippysmack has a reputation beyond reputeHippysmack has a reputation beyond reputeHippysmack has a reputation beyond reputeHippysmack has a reputation beyond reputeHippysmack has a reputation beyond reputeHippysmack has a reputation beyond reputeHippysmack has a reputation beyond reputeHippysmack has a reputation beyond reputeHippysmack has a reputation beyond reputeHippysmack has a reputation beyond reputeHippysmack has a reputation beyond repute
Default

Thanks doodah.
Just trying to get it done and right for the ages.
__________________
Reference the XLFORUM'S Sportsterpedia for additional technical information & advice

In Search of Fuel, Sunshine and a Steady Idle.
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 2 Weeks Ago
thefrenchowl's Avatar
thefrenchowl thefrenchowl is offline
Senior Custom Bike Builder
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 2,963
Sportster/Buell Model: KHK
Sportster/Buell Year: 1954
Sportster/Buell Model #2: IronHead XLH
Sportster/Buell Year #2: 1978
Other Motorcycle Model: XLRTT
Other Motorcycle Year: 1966
Reputation: 227151
thefrenchowl has a brilliant futurethefrenchowl has a brilliant futurethefrenchowl has a brilliant futurethefrenchowl has a brilliant futurethefrenchowl has a brilliant futurethefrenchowl has a brilliant futurethefrenchowl has a brilliant futurethefrenchowl has a brilliant futurethefrenchowl has a brilliant futurethefrenchowl has a brilliant futurethefrenchowl has a brilliant future
Default

Hippy,

All the figures quoted in that extract of your PDF are WRONG...

If the cams labelled XL (57/65 only, then P then Q) had such timing, the 57 XL would have gone 150mph if made to last...

Breather timing is wrong as well...

This delusional cam timing has been repeated in the factory FSMs over the years, at least since 1985 (my last year for on hand FSM and interest as far as Sportstser goes...)



The values I have quoted are right, you can check them with feeler gauges inserted into the breather tower while rotating the engine.

Another proof is that you can make an old tower like the post 72 tower by just enlarging the closing side of it and not touching the opening side. I've done that numerous times...

My last comment on this pressure/vaccum never ending palava... You all talk about "pressure" when the pistons go down. It would be "pressure" only if the oil fog in there had nowhere to go...

BUT, the breather or foofoo fighter opens as soon as maybe 1psi above A.P. (16PSI) is present, then the oil mist is PUSHED out to atmosphere.

You can test this on any Sportster: block the external pipe and start your engine. Stay well away as the oil mist will certainly and vengefully spew out of every joint face it can blow... THIS IS PRESSURE...

So, there is vaccum for sure, then air displacement, no pressure at all...

Just like Sportster oil pumps, once warm, no pressure to show, they just move oil around.

Lastly:

Quote:
Hippy: 72-76 Opens 20°-25° (ATDC) and closes 85°-90° (ABDC).
What's the 5 degree lead in opening and closing?
Is that accounting for gear lash?
No, that's allowance for manufacturing tolerances. Like cams, usually at H-D, + or - 2 degrees.

Patrick
__________________
Flat Head Forever
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 2 Weeks Ago
npaisnel npaisnel is offline
XL FORUM TEAM MEMBER
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: Jersey, Channel Islands, UK
Posts: 880
Sportster/Buell Model: XL883 now 1200
Sportster/Buell Year: 2004
Sportster/Buell Model #2: XLH883
Sportster/Buell Year #2: 1993
Reputation: 726731
npaisnel has a reputation beyond reputenpaisnel has a reputation beyond reputenpaisnel has a reputation beyond reputenpaisnel has a reputation beyond reputenpaisnel has a reputation beyond reputenpaisnel has a reputation beyond reputenpaisnel has a reputation beyond reputenpaisnel has a reputation beyond reputenpaisnel has a reputation beyond reputenpaisnel has a reputation beyond reputenpaisnel has a reputation beyond repute
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by sportsterdoc View Post
More reputation points to you...not that many folks are giving rep points recently.
I’ve been hear (XLF) a few years now...not a concept i have come across , or seen a link to give em to someone... wonder if this is a result of more people browsing and posting on phone rather than decent size screen
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 2 Weeks Ago
harley506d's Avatar
harley506d harley506d is offline
XL FORUM TEAM MEMBER
 
Join Date: May 2017
Location: Lubersac/France
Posts: 1,655
Sportster/Buell Model: 1200c
Sportster/Buell Year: 2005
Reputation: 3124503
harley506d has a reputation beyond reputeharley506d has a reputation beyond reputeharley506d has a reputation beyond reputeharley506d has a reputation beyond reputeharley506d has a reputation beyond reputeharley506d has a reputation beyond reputeharley506d has a reputation beyond reputeharley506d has a reputation beyond reputeharley506d has a reputation beyond reputeharley506d has a reputation beyond reputeharley506d has a reputation beyond repute
Default

In the Orange bar above the post, the middle one, scales.
__________________
"Procrastination is the thief of time"................90's Harley ad.
"Don't wait for your ship to come in, swim out and meet the bloody thing".................Barry Sheene.
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 2 Weeks Ago
npaisnel npaisnel is offline
XL FORUM TEAM MEMBER
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: Jersey, Channel Islands, UK
Posts: 880
Sportster/Buell Model: XL883 now 1200
Sportster/Buell Year: 2004
Sportster/Buell Model #2: XLH883
Sportster/Buell Year #2: 1993
Reputation: 726731
npaisnel has a reputation beyond reputenpaisnel has a reputation beyond reputenpaisnel has a reputation beyond reputenpaisnel has a reputation beyond reputenpaisnel has a reputation beyond reputenpaisnel has a reputation beyond reputenpaisnel has a reputation beyond reputenpaisnel has a reputation beyond reputenpaisnel has a reputation beyond reputenpaisnel has a reputation beyond reputenpaisnel has a reputation beyond repute
Default

Ah ..never tried that before...or the Multi Quote button... Any multi quotes have done before...I did manually .



OK, sorry for Hijacking the thread with irrelevant stuff...

Mod can now delete these !
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 2 Weeks Ago
Hippysmack's Avatar
Hippysmack Hippysmack is offline
XL FORUM TEAM MEMBER
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 6,603
Sportster/Buell Model: Xl1250S
Sportster/Buell Year: 98
Other Motorcycle Model: Kawasaki Vulcan 500
Other Motorcycle Year: 95
Reputation: 6529417
Hippysmack has a reputation beyond reputeHippysmack has a reputation beyond reputeHippysmack has a reputation beyond reputeHippysmack has a reputation beyond reputeHippysmack has a reputation beyond reputeHippysmack has a reputation beyond reputeHippysmack has a reputation beyond reputeHippysmack has a reputation beyond reputeHippysmack has a reputation beyond reputeHippysmack has a reputation beyond reputeHippysmack has a reputation beyond repute
Default

That abstract of the PDF is the actual service bulletin.
That is interesting that you say it is wrong. I didn't know that.
But you could have told me sooner.......

I think I could mock up a pump to simulate installed and TDC to test with.
Just gotta afford the pump.

So you have measured this with a degree wheel?
If using a feeler gauge, you can tell when the two slots come together (open) but how do you know where the opposite end of the gear slot is in crank degrees?
I do realize you guys have been fooling with these pumps for a long time.
And this is going way past the service manual. So I think everybody can benefit from the knowledge.

I'll leave that 57 drawing as it is since that is the actual numbers from the bulletin.
There were no other TSBs issued to correct it. So it needs to be done regardless.

I'll get started on a drawing for the pre-72 numbers you provided also.

Yes, the tower can be cut and the gear can be cut to add duration.
I've been looking at the XR books regarding pump mods.
I remember hopper writing that a Z pattern has been cut before in the gear to add duration also.

I like the drawing as it helps visualize what is happening during the pressure cycle.
I want to make drawings up thru 85 so I can see the changes.
So I wanted the timing numbers to be accurate.
I have searched high and low and can't find timing specs for pre-72 pumps other than that service bulletin.
I scaled the pics of the pre-72 gears and I can't find any difference between the width of the window from 57-60 PNs.
So I am comfortable saying the timing being the same from 57-71.
I haven't noticed any difference in tower window size from the two either unless the pics I've been looking at aren't correct years.


I do understand air displacement. Same as this quote, downstroke displaces vacuum.
And that is what happens constantly and variably in the bottom end.
It may just be semantics but downstroke creates positive pressure.
That first reduces the vacuum and air pressure builds only after vacuum has been reversed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hippysmack View Post
Thank you for those dims needspeed.

Example 1.
If you were to blow into a sealed container and had only 1 second to do that before you had to inhale, all you would do is expand your cheeks.
You blew the same amount of air out that you inhaled, but kept it from leaving.
And then you have to inhale for 1 second.
(the pressure you created expanded your cheeks 2" in diameter, )

Example 2.
If you blow with the same pressure with an 1/8" hole drilled in the container, some air escapes out the hole.
(the pressure you created expanded your mouth 1" in diameter)

Example 3.
Now if you increase the hole to 1/4".
Blow with the same pressure and you get a full breath out.
(the pressure you created did not expand your cheeks)


In the first two examples above by the time upstroke happened, your still holding positive pressure in your cheeks.
Your cheeks represent the crankcase.
In the third example, you are holding more vacuum in the crankcase than before on upstroke.

Now add a negative differential (upstroke) to each example.
2" upstroke = 2" downstroke.

Example 1.
2" of positive (what's in your cheeks) minus 2" of negative (inhale) yields a pressure of (0, atmosphere) in the crankcase.

Example 2.
1" of positive minus 2" of negative yields a pressure of (-1 vacuum) in the crankcase.

Example 3.
0" of positive minus 2" of negative yields a pressere of (-2 vacuum) in the crankcase.
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 2 Weeks Ago
brucstoudt's Avatar
brucstoudt brucstoudt is offline
Senior Master Custom Bike Builder
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Pottstown PA.
Posts: 14,048
Sportster/Buell Model: xlch
Sportster/Buell Year: 1960
Reputation: 554415
brucstoudt has a reputation beyond reputebrucstoudt has a reputation beyond reputebrucstoudt has a reputation beyond reputebrucstoudt has a reputation beyond reputebrucstoudt has a reputation beyond reputebrucstoudt has a reputation beyond reputebrucstoudt has a reputation beyond reputebrucstoudt has a reputation beyond reputebrucstoudt has a reputation beyond reputebrucstoudt has a reputation beyond reputebrucstoudt has a reputation beyond repute
Default

''no good deed goe's unpunished'' i was just reminded of where i saw that here in another thread.(Georgia)
__________________
72 1000cc barrels and heads, s&s 41/2'' flywheels, sifton cams, s&s super B w/ zippers thunderjet w/yost powertube, andrews gears,and shafts, competition engineering kevlar wet or dry clutch, 72 oil pump, morris magneto w/auto advance and single fire module, cycle electric generator w/electronic regulator,73 cu.in.
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 2 Weeks Ago
Hippysmack's Avatar
Hippysmack Hippysmack is offline
XL FORUM TEAM MEMBER
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 6,603
Sportster/Buell Model: Xl1250S
Sportster/Buell Year: 98
Other Motorcycle Model: Kawasaki Vulcan 500
Other Motorcycle Year: 95
Reputation: 6529417
Hippysmack has a reputation beyond reputeHippysmack has a reputation beyond reputeHippysmack has a reputation beyond reputeHippysmack has a reputation beyond reputeHippysmack has a reputation beyond reputeHippysmack has a reputation beyond reputeHippysmack has a reputation beyond reputeHippysmack has a reputation beyond reputeHippysmack has a reputation beyond reputeHippysmack has a reputation beyond reputeHippysmack has a reputation beyond repute
Default

Ain't it the truuuff..

Ok, how's this?

Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 2 Weeks Ago
mrmom9r's Avatar
mrmom9r mrmom9r is offline
XL FORUM TEAM MEMBER
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 2,239
Sportster/Buell Model: dragbike
Sportster/Buell Year: 1960
Reputation: 256632
mrmom9r has a brilliant futuremrmom9r has a brilliant futuremrmom9r has a brilliant futuremrmom9r has a brilliant futuremrmom9r has a brilliant futuremrmom9r has a brilliant futuremrmom9r has a brilliant futuremrmom9r has a brilliant futuremrmom9r has a brilliant futuremrmom9r has a brilliant futuremrmom9r has a brilliant future
Default

Closes 85-90 degrees ABDC

You're half way there
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 14:32.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
XL Forum® - Linson Media LLC