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  #1  
Old 8th February 2017
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Default E1984 - Original HD Coil, EI, VOES- Timing

I understand how to time a vehicle using a timing light, and know the basic procedure for the ironhead with a 100% stock ignition. (Sticky referenced)

All components are working correctly, but I would like to check the timing since I have not done so since I bough the bike in 2009.( Who knows if this was even done correctly)

Do I need to set base timing with the VOES signal to EI Module grounded? Or is it as simple as setting up the view plug, bumping up to 3000rpm, setting my dial back timing light to 35-40 degrees and set advance plate so the TDC mark in the center of the view window.

Long story short, does VOES change anything in the procedure?

FSM has two charts one stating 55 BTDC and 40 BTDC

I'm currently set to 38 BTDC @ 3000 rpm with VOES connected and operating.
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Old 8th February 2017
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Dialbacks tend not to work well with HD ignitions (dual spark) because of the odd timing. Unless you've got one of the fancy ones that can handle dual spark you should set it to zero and treat it as a standard timing light.

If all your parts are stock, you can use the stock procedure for that setup. However, if you are using an aftermarket module they typically have different curves so you need to follow their specific procedure.
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Old 8th February 2017
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It has been a while since I have checked the timing of my 1978 with Ultima ignition set to single fire with a VOES, but I recall grounding the wire from the VOES while setting the timing. In fact I had installed a connector on that wire specifically so that I could do this easily. But this is not in the FSM and I do not recall the technical reason for doing it. I believe that a local Sportster mechanic suggested it.

Best to see what others say.
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  #4  
Old 8th February 2017
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pigthang View Post
is it as simple as setting up the view plug, bumping up to 3000rpm, setting my dial back timing light to 35-40 degrees and set advance plate so the TDC mark in the center of the view window.
As mentioned, this would be correct __IF__ your timing light can deal with the dual-fire, non-symetrical ignition...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pigthang View Post
I'm currently set to 38 BTDC @ 3000 rpm with VOES connected and operating.
How do you know this?

===========================

Here's the chart from the VOES section of the Sportsterpedia:
http://sportsterpedia.com/doku.php/h...lectric_switch


You'll notice that the VOES line to the ICM is grounded to give you the Advanced Curve - That is the curve that would be activated while at Idle or almost any throttle setting while the bike is standing still (it has a high vacuum level at idle) - If you disconnect the VOES line, you will be running on the Retarded Curve (meaning less advanced) because it would simulate having a low vacuum level (like when you accelerate hard)...

The EVO factory manual for 1994 says VOES should be connected and functional - Set Idle Speed to 1650-1950 - Using regular timing light, look for the front cylinder ADVANCE MARK on the flywheel in the timing window (NOT THE TDC MARK)...

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  #5  
Old 8th February 2017
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scuba10jdl View Post
Dialbacks tend not to work well with HD ignitions (dual spark) because of the odd timing. Unless you've got one of the fancy ones that can handle dual spark you should set it to zero and treat it as a standard timing light.

If all your parts are stock, you can use the stock procedure for that setup. However, if you are using an aftermarket module they typically have different curves so you need to follow their specific procedure.
It's a fancy one. I'm an aircooled VW mechanic and needed the fancy one to check RPMs, Dwell, and ignition timing at WOT since the stock VW pulley's only have idle timing marks. It's one of my most valuable diagnostic tools.

Link to Summit for specs. (Amazon has best price)


Back to setting the advance for stock internals, set with VOES closed to ground or open to set it at the retarded most timing?


Quote:
Originally Posted by IXL2Relax View Post
As mentioned, this would be correct __IF__ your timing light can deal with the dual-fire, non-symmetrical ignition...

"I'm currently set to 38 BTDC @ 3000 rpm with VOES connected and operating."

How do you know this?

I know it is at 38 degrees advance because of the type of timing light I have. You select the advance you want and it internally retards the light to show the TDC mark for the front cylinder in the inspection hole. (Aircooled VW doesn’t have WOT timing marks and this is how I set the advance on those primitive engines.)

Using a modern timing light will let you advance your engine with much more precision.


Summary of VOES info.

Idle: ECM receives a ground signal (allows engine to advance completely)

WOT or Under Load: EI receives no signal because the switch is open (brings the advance down to prevent overheating and pinging)

Using this knowledge, and using the fact that 3000RPM might cause the switch to go open, we should make sure that the EI is reading a ground signal to set the MAX advance the engine can achieve.

Example:
Switch grounded (Simulates high manifold pressure), ignition timing will be at 40 BTDC.
Switch unplugged (Simulates open switch low manifold pressure), ignition timing will be 40 minus the retard from EI

In conclusion, we should make sure the EI is reading ground so that at idle and high vacuum situations, the engine does not go over 40⁰ BTDC otherwise we could cause internal melt downs in these scenarios.

Would this be correct thinking?
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Here is the 83-85 timing table <---- My Scoot


Here is the 80-82 timing table


So it looks like they want the VOES connected and set the timing to 55 BTDC which if the manifold pressure isn't great enough would cause the advance to go greater than 55 BTDC. If the VOES stays closed while the bike is stationary this would make the max advance 55 BTDC and would go lower when the switch opens under load.

Thats a lot of advance either way. Hence why I'm asking to make sure it's not a typo.
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Old 8th February 2017
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Nope, 55 degrees is not a typo. My 1984 Evo big twin had the same advance curve and was very prone to detonation.

Before you set your advance timing to 55 degrees make sure you still have the module with that high advance, otherwise your timing will be way too advanced. Part number for 1983 module is 32410-83, for 1984 it is 32410-84.

Perhaps you could also double check with the VOES disconnected, fast idle should read 40 degrees.
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The VOES DOES NOT SET THE TIMING - It only switches between the two timing curves programmed into the Ignition Control Module...

It is the Module that changes the actual timing setting based on the engine RPM - The ICM has two separate curves programmed - One is more advanced than the other - So you have an Advanced Curve and a Retarded Curce (the Retarded Curve is less advanced than the Advanced Curve but is still advanced before top dead center)

So, the VOES, based on manifold vacuum, tells the ICM to switch between these two curves...

If your timing light is that capable, I'd be happy to set the PREFERRED max advance you want (using the set-back) at 3000 RPM - Then rev the engine up to 4500rpm a couple times to make sure the advance does not go farther...

HD never really published their advance curves, although some folks either tested them to measure what the curves were or found out some how - There are a few places that show curves, but certainly not for every module...

What module number do you have in there now??

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Last edited by IXL2Relax; 9th February 2017 at 01:43..
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Old 9th February 2017
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IXL2Relax View Post
The VOES DOES NOT SET THE TIMING - It only switches between the two timing curves programmed into the Ignition Control Module...

It is the Module that changes the actual timing setting based on the engine RPM - The ICM has two separate curves programmed - One is more advanced than the other - So you have an Advanced Curve and a Retarded Curce (the Retarded Curve is less advanced than the Advanced Curve but is still advanced before top dead center)

So, the VOES, based on manifold vacuum, tells the ICM to switch between these two curves...

If you timing light is that capable, I'd be happy to set the PREFERRED max advance you want (using the set-back) at 3000 RPM - Then rev the engine up to 4500rpm a could times to make sure the advance does not go farther...

HD never really published their advance curves, although some folks either tested them to measure what the curves were or found out some how - There are a few places that show curves, but certainly not for every module...

What module number do you have in there now??

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Precisely what I was asking in a round out way, which curve to set base dynamic timing to. I understand this is not a vacuum pod, but an off-on switch. No need to yell

I'll double check the part number this weekend. I do know it's single spark because there is only one Hall effect pick up on the advance plate.

Basically all I have to do is leave everything connected as normal and set the front cyl adv. timing mark in the display hole, after verifying -83/84 HD part number.

T.Clark answered my question.

I can then check the precise degree by using the dial back feature on my light for peace of mind, small adjustment, and documentation.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pigthang View Post
Precisely what I was asking in a round out way, which curve to set base dynamic timing to. I understand this is not a vacuum pod, but an off-on switch. No need to yell
Well - Not yelling - Just emphasizing... Whatever

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