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  #351  
Old 5th July 2022
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Have a mill?

I have made whitney punches putting the stock it the mill collet and holding the tool bit in the vise.

But I'm a butcher
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  #352  
Old 5th July 2022
Iron Mike Iron Mike is offline
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Try a zip tie around your rubber cap. Might be a simple fix
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  #353  
Old 5th July 2022
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well, been busy modifying my oven to accept 36" guitar frame rails for powder coat and now i was volunteered to cut down an oak tree in the middle of the heat, "REALLY"!!!
like i say really admire the work and the thread really is bringing a lot of things to the afore, BUT, you are really reading an issue that rarely exists in the actual world regarding the pump, NO historical data to back it up, been riding since i was 12 and now 71 and never seen cavitation damage with an mc pump at street level.
i do not view because, they are not real world, it is like using that water well pump to water the garden.
never answered the "?" about cavitation in other parts of the engine and yes it can and does happen and more catastrophic than the pump.
you never answered the "?" about which form of gaseous cavitation you are seeing IF it is TRULY cavitation at all.
eventually i will jump back on this subject, got guitar parts to make and powder.
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  #354  
Old 5th July 2022
Tomcatt Tomcatt is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bustert View Post
...BUT, you are really reading an issue that rarely exists in the actual world regarding the pump, NO historical data to back it up, been riding since i was 12 and now 71 and never seen cavitation damage with an mc pump at street level...
And over thinking something that is most likely simple: just air leaking into the system...
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  #355  
Old 5th July 2022
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve9 View Post
Have a mill?

I have made whitney punches putting the stock it the mill collet and holding the tool bit in the vise.

But I'm a butcher
No mill either.
I thought about making a wedge, using a compass to strike circle, stake points on it, drill them then gut the rod center of the holes.
Lots of tedious junk. But then I'd have to center up tediously to turn the pump.
But I think I like the quick on/off and understanding nature of the rubber cap.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Iron Mike View Post
Try a zip tie around your rubber cap. Might be a simple fix
I'll try that, can't hurt.


1998 Oil Pump Sump Passage Dead Stick Vacuum Test:

The sump port hose was plugged off with a vacuum gauge off the hose and the cam port was open to atmosphere.
The vacuum on the sump hose was a steady 50 cmHg.
Then oil was introduced into the cam port hole and the vacuum on the sump hose jumped higher and pegged the gauge.
Vacuum was in excess of 74 cmHg with the actual number not known.
The addition of oil traveling to the sump inlet cavity from the cam port increased vacuum on the hose.
I didn't get a picture of it pegged for obvious reasons..... scampering to cut the drill off.

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  #356  
Old 5th July 2022
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bustert View Post
never answered the "?" about cavitation in other parts of the engine and yes it can and does happen and more catastrophic than the pump.
you never answered the "?" about which form of gaseous cavitation you are seeing IF it is TRULY cavitation at all.
I've been wrapped up in oil pumps bustert.
I haven't put any thought in cavitation in the motor til yet.
Therefore I don't have an answer. Maybe you can enlighten us.

I did answer the second "?" that, I don't know.
I was hoping you had some sage for that.
I do know whatever, some of us, saw is more treacherous inside the pump than outside in the hose when higher vacuum is present.
Apparently there are some that think it's just air and who cares...
But you are alluding to gaseous conditions we should all care about.
The thing about that is HEAT is a main ingredient in cavitation.
We've seen how the air bubbles form. Heat changes the variables in that as I've already posted.

edit:
I'm giving up the idea of plugging off the cam port.
The return outlet hose was giving a phhutt-phhutt-phhutt sound but there was no grinding or obnoxious noises.
Just a low pitched phhutt-phhutt sound out the hose.
These two return cavities act as separate units but one affects the other.

In thinking now about the Karling Mod where they capped off the return port;
The inlet itself is plugged AND Jorgen said further modding was done on the cavities to optimize something but no details on those mods.
Now I can say that plugging off the inlet in the top WILL NOT solve the issue WITHOUT either welding up the cam port cavity or milling a path from there to the sump cavity.
(which will lower vacuum on the return passage from the sump).
I have already shown in video, elevation (gravity) will not fill the cam port alone.
It takes vacuum from the gerotors to fill the cavities in the small amount of time allotted before next gear cavity rolls around.

The cavity itself, even though capped at the inlet, will still create an air vacuum that doesn't have any way to fill up with oil.
That pressure will still be delivered to the sump cavity unless the cam inlet cavity is removed or shared.

Last edited by Hippysmack; 5th July 2022 at 23:34..
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  #357  
Old 6th July 2022
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I managed to get a couple videos done before the rubber cap took a dump.
I combined them into a short thing just to show the oil stream quality with/without the sump port plugged off.
Oil stream quality coming from the cam port inlet is different going out the return to tank line if the sump port is open to atmosphere or plugged.

With the sump port open to atmosphere; Both air and oil were pumped thru the return hose.
The smaller cam port cavity delivers oil to the bigger sump cavity and air fills what's left in that cavity as normal.

With the sump port plugged;
Both air and oil were still pumped thru the return hose at a tighter condition.
The bigger sump cavity pulled a huge vacuum that sucked oil and air from the cam port inlet and entrained air and oil.
The second part of the video shows tight nit “lighter in color” air/oil mix traveling with the darker oil in segments.
Vacuum on the plugged off hose from the sump is 50 cmHg.

This is the reason the cam box return cavity inside the oil pump needs to be welded up or shared with the sump cavity when doing the Karling Mod.
Otherwise the vacuum that will be created in the cam chest inlet CAVITY in the oil pump (even though the top of the pump would be capped from the cam chest) will also create a huge vacuum that will affect oil stream quality and fill in the sump cavity.
Both ways seemed to deliver the same amount of oil to the container (about 13 oz per minute).

edit:
Basically the high (for these pumps) vacuum from the sump cavity was pulling thru the clearances in the gerotors and consequently from the cam port.
That's why there was so much vacuum I saw in the cam chest inlet.
It was vacuum from both inlets.


Video:
http://www.sportsterpedia.com/lib/ex...hippysmack.mp4

Last edited by Hippysmack; 6th July 2022 at 21:38..
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  #358  
Old 7th July 2022
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I got 3 tests done measuring volume of;
Sump inlet port (cam port open to atmosphere)
Cam inlet port (sump port open to atmosphere)
Both ports delivering oil
Pump speed was 654.3 RPM.

* The cam port alone inlet delivered about 16 ounces per minute.
* The sump port alone delivered about 43 ounces per minute.
* Both the sump and cam ports together delivered about 71 ounces per minute.

Total projected volume from the return gerotors (CCing gerotors) was 62.08 oz/minute at pump speed 500 rpm.
So the flow test results are comparable although higher than projected due to higher pump speed.

As long as both return inlets are getting oil, volume picked up and returned to the tank is a little higher.
It seems these two inlets complement each other.
And in reverse, if oil is not flowing as fast to one or the other port, total volume back to the tank is lower.
Actual return volume will be lower in operation since the return gerotors are bigger than the feed gerotors.

The individual flow volumes add up to the cam chest inlet port delivering 27.1% of the flow (16 + 43 = 59), (16 / 59 = .2711864406779661 or 27.1%)
It's not known from which or both inlets that the extra 12 ounces of oil came from when they were tested together.
The vacuum being higher in the sump port when the cam port introduced oil from the previous post suggests it's the added vacuum from both cavities filled with oil that jacked up the total volume.

1998-2006 Return Test Video: Both Ports Delivering Oil
http://www.sportsterpedia.com/lib/ex...hippysmack.mp4

1998-2006 Return Test Video: Sump Port (only) Delivering Oil
http://www.sportsterpedia.com/lib/ex...hippysmack.mp4

1998-2006 Return Test Video: Cam Port (only) Delivering Oil
http://www.sportsterpedia.com/lib/ex...hippysmack.mp4
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  #359  
Old 9th July 2022
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1998 pump:

Feed discharge is showing about 29 ounces per minute at 653.7 RPM.
I haven't done the math back to the CCing data but it's in the ball park.
Video:
http://www.sportsterpedia.com/lib/ex...hippysmack.mp4


Static Pressures: accurate for my 1998-1999 oil pump, not sure if the 2000-2006 pump changed anything in the cavities, gerotors are same size though:
Test at pump speed of 653.7 RPM and feed outlet fitting ID of 0.316";
Feed Outlet Hose Pressure (4 PSI), Feed Inlet Hose Vacuum (-14.5 cmHg or -2.80 PSI)
Sump vacuum is higher if there is oil in the cam chest inlet.
Return Inlet Hose Vacuum Without Oil in the Cam Chest Inlet Port (-11 cmHG or -2.13 PSI)
Return Inlet Hose Vacuum With Oil in the Cam Chest Inlet Port (-12.5 cmHG or -2.42 PSI)

Feed



Return

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  #360  
Old 4 Weeks Ago
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I had a lot of fun with the 07 pump...
The vacuum is undoubtedly higher on the cam chest inlet port.

The cam port volume could not be tested due to not enough oil being delivered to it as is set up right now.
First, the container of oil for the cam chest inlet was hung above the drill press where the inlet hose was 25-1/2" above the pump (oil level 28" above pump).
The oil pump had more suction than the weight of gravity oil (more suction than gravity could deliver oil for).
Next, the container was raised to where the inlet fitting was 34-1/2" above the pump with the oil level at 39" above.
The oil pump was still sucking faster than the oil was being delivered to the top of the pump.

Bustert, I can now say for sure that these pumps cannot survive on gravity oil alone.
I tried some POR 15 around the 98 pump's neck.
But gave all that up when I found the center of the rubber I used to keep oil off the gear wouldn't seal against the POR 15.
Too much vacuum in the top.
So I haven't been able to seal off the cam port so it can gain suction on the gravity oil.

The sump port alone delivered about 63 ounces per minute into the container at 654.7 RPM.

The feed outlet delivered about 30 ounces per minute into the container at 654.7 RPM.

Videos:

Feed:
http://www.sportsterpedia.com/lib/ex...hippysmack.mp4

Cam Port:
http://www.sportsterpedia.com/lib/ex...hippysmack.mp4

Sump Port:
http://www.sportsterpedia.com/lib/ex...hippysmack.mp4
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