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  #11  
Old 13th September 2018
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Yep, this is what I live for.
I've updated my previous post with some things I have looked over in your first post.

No, I don't have spares for the 79-85.
I upgraded my 98 pump and took lots of pics with a caliper of the differences of that and the 07 in these sub-docs
http://sportsterpedia.com/doku.php/techtalk:evoil03.

It'd be nice to mimic those in the IH section.
rocketmangb has a page of Buell pump pics in those sub-docs also.


I have bought many of the things I have used to research and study.
But buying used, you sometimes get missing parts and worn out past measuring.

As in the pics you have with the plate with the grooves cut into it.
It's hard to say sometimes what is spec when the spec wears off.
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Last edited by Hippysmack; 14th September 2018 at 05:20..
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  #12  
Old 13th September 2018
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hippysmack View Post

As in the pics you have with the plate with the grooves cut into it.
It's hard to say sometimes what is spec when the spec wears off.
Are you talking about the top plate in the picture? The shiny one? If so, those are machining marks. That is NOS. It was in a sealed package untill i got on this oil pump stuff a few days ago while investigating my pump while putting my motor back together. My motivation for this thread was because I realized I had the square cut feed gerotor in a cover without the relief cut into it. Which could be the suspect why my bottom end went bad. So hopefully the info we can provide can prevent that same thing from happening to someone else.

The 78 supplement shows a revision for the check valve. So tomorrow I'm gonna dig through all of mine and see if I can come up with what changed. I know I got 6 or 7 used ones and about 10 NOS checks valves.
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Last edited by DirtyCory; 13th September 2018 at 07:15.. Reason: Dam auto correct is a nuisance
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  #13  
Old 13th September 2018
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Cory,
Please continue with the documentation. I do have some later pumps to dissect as well and add differences if any.
As this thread evolves, and gets further into the oiling system, I have an NOS prototype Ironhead right case half, machined and plumbed from the factory with pressure fed cam oilers. I dont have any other major 77+ parts, but I would like to get to the bottom of where the factory was headed with the oiling scenario on this. Perhaps this will bring it to light.

Nice to see a tech thread again, with documentation
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Default 77-85 Oil Pumps and Internal Changes per the parts books

Quote:
Originally Posted by DirtyCory View Post
Are you talking about the top plate in the picture? The shiny one? If so, those are machining marks. That is NOS.
My mistake, it looked like wear marks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DirtyCory View Post
The 78 supplement shows a revision for the check valve. So tomorrow I'm gonna dig through all of mine and see if I can come up with what changed. I know I got 6 or 7 used ones and about 10 NOS checks valves.
I quoted the 78 wrong, that was in the XLCR supplement. I'll change that post to reflect.
But, does that mean they used the new check valve original in the 77 XLCR and found an O-ring problem by 78?

Original 77 Oil Pump:

From the 77 supplement.

No mention of fasteners on the oil pressure switch.

(12036) outer plate seal - between the gerotors
(26430-76) gear shaft pin
(26431-76) pump cover bushing - AKA lower shaft bushing
(26432-76) O-ring, body - that seals the check valve in the pump body
(26433-77) lower O-ring
(26434-76) cover O-ring - between the pump halves
(26435-76) check valve
(26461-77) spring washer - between the two plates
(26463-77) inner plate - return gerotors sit on this plate
(26480-77) roll pin
(26484-75) oil pump body
(26486-75) pump cover
(26488-75) gear shaft
(26489-75) pump body bushing - AKA upper shaft bushing

Gerotors (77-E83):
(26491-75) return, set - thick ones
(26492-75) feed, set - thin ones
(These feed gerotors are in the oil pump cover and should extend .001” - .005“ above the ridge - HD Service Bulletin #M-711 dated June 3, 1977)

This bulletin also says the later feed gerotors should extend up to .011” above the ridge.
So, did the gerotors get taller (by June '77) without the part# changing?
Were the "thin" feed gerotors only used on the "1600" pump?

These gerotors are chamfered (.020“ x 45° chamfer or .020”) radius and the same radius is designed into their respective oil pump body / cover.

(26493-75) outer plate - sits on top of the feed gerotors
(26495-75) gasket - pump to engine case
(26496-75) 90 deg return fitting
(26497-75) gear shaft retaining ring
(26554-77) oil pressure switch
(63540-62) 45 deg feed fitting

From the Sportsterpedia history section; http://sportsterpedia.com/doku.php?i...ection19701979
There was a special "1600" oil pump installed on Early 1000 engines.
This special pump is not listed as a separate item in the 77 or 78 supplement catalogs.
A quantity of them have oversize oil pump body 0-rings which are assembled in the groove in the check valve bore to seal the pump cover.
This oversize 0-ring (12042), must be used in place of the standard 0-ring (26432-76) on these pumps only.
All such special pumps are identified with the letter “ 0 ” stamped on the pump body. (HD Service Letter ML-39 dated March 4, 1977)

So, the "1600" oil pump (body at least) seemed to be the original on 77s.
What's the difference of the "1600 pump" and it's replacement?

Changes noted in the parts books from 77-78:

The 78 XLH / XLCH supplement.

They added double nuts (10/32 x 1/8 x 3/8 hex) and lockwashers on the oil pressure switch to hold the wire on.

(26435-76A) check valve
This same check valve was used in all future pumps thru 85;

Both check valves have the same lower O-ring.
Due to the assumed oversized check valve bore in the '1600' pump;
(12042) O-ring, body - that seals the check valve in the pump body
(for the special pump only) - now available for parts order
There is no indication that had anything to do with the new check valve change.

The old O-ring was still available (26432-76) for standard oil pumps

Everything else looks the same as far as part numbers.
Least not forget though that HD has changed parts without changing the part numbers....

edit: I re-arranged this post so I can add to it later and not confuse myself... or others.

Changes noted from 78-79:

From the 79 parts books, -79 & -79A

(26432-76) that seals the check valve in the pump body - is now the only one available
They didn't offer the (12042) O-ring any longer

What was the 1600 pump? What happened to the 1600 pump?
Since it said in the service letter installed on "Early" 1000 engines,
It can also be assumed that pump was nixed. But, that should be verified.


Changes noted from 79-80:

From the -80 catalog

(26434-76A) new cover O-ring part# - between the pump halves

No changes 80-81:

Changes noted from 81-82:

From the -82 catalog

(26204-82) New pump assembly part# - for 82 only
ALL internal components are exact same part numbers as was in 81.

Old pump still sold for 81 and prior (26204-75).

What was the reason for the pump assembly change?
Different vendor?
Engine case change?

I haven't looked into any of the questions I'm asking. 'just thinking out loud.

Changes noted from 82-83:

From the -83 catalog

(26204-82A) New pump assembly part# - but for 82 and up
(coincides with the new outer plate,outer plate seal, pump body and pump cover part# changes)

Old pump still sold for 81 and prior (26204-75).

(12036A) outer plate seal - between the gerotors

(26484-83) oil pump body - new part number

(26486-83) pump cover

(26493-75A) outer plate - sits on top of the feed gerotors - for 83 year model

Old outer plate still sold for 82 and prior (26493-75)

It's also notable that 79 and later parts catalogs only reference prior fitment back to 79.
Although, many parts will fit 78 and prior......

Changes noted from 83-84:

From the -84 catalog

(26197-83) new oil pump part# - 82 and up
(book says "Oil Pump") - Late 83 production

All other internals are the same as in 83 according to the 84 catalog
However, the 85 catalog and the service bulletin revealed the true internal changes to this new pump

The old "Oil Pump Assembly" (26204-75) still sold for 81 and prior models

From the pedia;
http://sportsterpedia.com/doku.php/t...n_modification

This new assembly will retrofit to 77-E83 as an assembly (HD Service Bulletin #M860 dated November 12, 1982 pg 2, HD Service Bulletin #M-892 dated June 22, 1984)

These modifications limit interchangeability and affect the installation of repair parts:
Either early style or late style gerotor gears may be used with late style (under-cut) oil pump bodies and covers.
Only early style chamfered gerotor gears may be used with early style oil pump bodies and covers
(Use of late style gerotor gears in early style oil pump bodies and covers could cause the oil pump to bind up and possible pump failure).

Changes noted from 84-85:

From the -85 catalog

(26197-83) oil pump now being sold for 85 and prior year models as an assembly
(as well as the individual upgraded parts along the way with the exception of the gerotors)

The old pump (26204-75) is no longer available for parts order

Gerotors (L83-85 for the 26197-83) available for parts order:
(26491-83) return, set - new part# for 82-85
(26492-83) feed, set - new part# for 82-85
The new gerotor gears are fabricated without the chamfered top and bottom on the outer diameters as was in the 77-E1983 gerotors.

return, set - thick ones (26491-75) - now not available
feed, set - thin ones (26492-75) - now not available

Pics and Dims will tell the rest of the story of the changes.

Last edited by Hippysmack; 15th September 2018 at 02:12.. Reason: To unconfuse myself
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  #15  
Old 13th September 2018
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didn't Sportsters use that same oil pump until '90 or 91? -91a was the newer pump.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brucstoudt View Post
didn't Sportsters use that same oil pump until '90 or 91? -91a was the newer pump.
Yes and no.
We started out with a (26204-75) and ended with a (26197-83) just by 1985.

The pump body pretty much stayed the same with several innards changing I believe.
The 77-85 style pump had the dowel pin inside that makes the notch in the plates necessary that Cory posted.
This was to keep the plates between the gerotors from spinning.



I haven't delved into all the changes yet but I believe gerotor OD's and/or thickness changed a few times also.
Which would require a bigger inside bore.

I'm hoping to catalog all of the changes with this thread.

edit: Just like the 03 and 07 pumps look identical from the outside but are worlds apart inside.
http://sportsterpedia.com/doku.php/techtalk:evoil03g

Last edited by Hippysmack; 14th September 2018 at 05:58..
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iron Mike View Post
Cory,
Please continue with the documentation. I do have some later pumps to dissect as well and add differences if any.
As this thread evolves, and gets further into the oiling system, I have an NOS prototype Ironhead right case half, machined and plumbed from the factory with pressure fed cam oilers. I dont have any other major 77+ parts, but I would like to get to the bottom of where the factory was headed with the oiling scenario on this. Perhaps this will bring it to light.

Nice to see a tech thread again, with documentation
That would be great to have later pumps to open up and compare and measure parts and see the actual differences. This may be the only way to verify the actual changes. There is lots of speculation we can do by study of the part books but as much real world documentations we can do the more useful this thread will be.
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Old 14th September 2018
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I've re-arranged post 14 to include the changes I find in the parts books.
But, as you said, the parts books are only a part of the equation.

The link in post 16 takes the 2 different pumps side by side for a visual difference as well as it shows the dimensional differences.
That would be optimal for the parts differences for the 77-85 changes.

I originally began my research on this to see if the newer pumps would retrofit and how far back.
But, as usual I got sidetracked.

I still need 86-90 pump info as well...

Last edited by Hippysmack; 14th September 2018 at 06:33..
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DirtyCory View Post
The 78 supplement shows a revision for the check valve. So tomorrow I'm gonna dig through all of mine and see if I can come up with what changed. I know I got 6 or 7 used ones and about 10 NOS checks valves.
Well every check valve that I have is the revised part. The (a)

So I do not have any of the early ones to compare to.

Last edited by DirtyCory; 15th September 2018 at 01:37.. Reason: Photo
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Old 14th September 2018
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With this thread, hopefully, someone will.

We're just getting started.

I'll have 77-85 parts book numbers in post 14 shortly, I'm up to 84.
I'll go up to 86 to see what changed on the evo pump.

This is just part numbers though.

The parts still need to be examined.

Edit: That's the jist of the parts changes between the 77-85 years.

I think I'll wait on adding the 86-90 parts information since it doesn't really apply to the subject at hand,

But, from skimming through the -86 catalog, they used the same return gerotors as the 85 but added a new feed gerotor set in a new pump body (or at least pump body part number).
Did the feed gears get thicker?
If so, the new -86 may have stretched a little.
That's just speculation at this point though.
That is what happened in 07 though, the body gained app .018“ more height.
So, anything is possible.

Need pics, dims, and part numbers / casting numbers now.

Sorry about all the edits..... I'm hitting more wrong keys lately.

Last edited by Hippysmack; 14th September 2018 at 06:01..
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