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  #141  
Old 6th June 2019
Tomcatt Tomcatt is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hippysmack View Post
More flow equals more pressure (through restrictions) and can't be ignored.
And how it applies should be understood for what it is and not obsessed over.

At this point I'm just going to stock up on popcorn and wait for your test video(s).

FWIW I run a PL20195 filter.
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  #142  
Old 7th June 2019
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I've been just sitting back and enjoying the show but I just gotta say a few things then I'll bow out again letting you guys ponder ..

On the Iron Heads the oil pumps feed the crankshaft and cams first then the top end.
the oiling was done in a fashion that restricted the flow through a series of metered holes.
and the top end oiling was restricted by the tube size to the rocker box, smaller tube id on the racers and CH vs larger tubes on the XLH.
The scavenging was figured on size needed to evacuate the sump at rpm only, and pressure wasn't even worried about but volume was based on what was needed to coat parts by splash for cooling purposes.
Since these were mostly needle bearings and not bushings they required very little oil to live but required cooling through the air and oil flow.
The average oil pressure on the early engines was between 4-8 lbs at speed as not to cause parasitic loss of power.

As the engines started using hydraulic lifters and more bushings instead of needle bearings. The moco started making the pumps larger to spray oil at lower speeds for cooling, which requires pressure, vs splash which requires volume.
This helped prolong engine life at lower speeds but in doing this they had to add a bypass to prevent excessive oil in the sump caused by increased pumping at higher RPM.
The oil weight was also figured into the equation, as the older splash systems require thicker oil to absorb the heat to take it away from the engine as a whole.
Compare this to the newer engines which have better cooling with the aluminum heads and cylinders where the oil is used mostly for lubrication. These engines with tighter tolerances require a thinner oil to prevent heat build up in the viscose film under load, SO now the oil pumps got even larger to help with the volume loss due to thinner oils used today.

SO ... now you know why the racers have the tip of the crankshaft drilled to accept a jet to restrict flow to the rods preventing oil churning in the sump. They also remove the hydraulic lifters and install solids with a very fine metered hole for top end oil. this restriction will ad pump pressure and parasitic loss which they usually correct by enlarging the bypass and lowering the pressure.

OK, I'm done pontificating and will sit back and enjoy the show.

Tomcatt ... Pass the popcorn !!
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  #143  
Old 7th June 2019
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Well, I wouldn't heat up the popcorn yet.
I'd hate for it to be cold by the time you eat it.
I've been looking into costs and I'm going to have to do this slowly.

I've been looking at this meter on Ebay.
It's spring loaded and small enough to be mounted and I'm on a budget.
Any concerns using it?
https://www.ebay.com/itm/HEDLAND-H62...152ac3b2fe246b

HEDLAND H624-107 Flowmeter,GPM/LPM 1.0 - 7.0 / 4-26
MPN: H624-107, SKU: G0798016
Here is the data sheet for the different models.
https://www.itm.com/pdfs/cache/www.i...-datasheet.pdf

Mechanical Flowmeter
For Pipe Size 1/2 In., Connection Size 1/2 In., Connection Type FNPT,
Fluid Temp. Range 32 Degrees to 250 Degrees F,
Wetted Materials C360 Brass, Buna-N, Polysulfone, PVC, PH15-7MO Stainless Steel, T300 Stainless Steel, Strontium,
Max. Pressure 325 psi,
Flow Range 1 to 7 gpm,
Max. Viscosity 500 SSU,
Flow Material Petroleum Fluids,
Variable Area, GPM Max. -, Max. Voltage -, Length 7-3/4 In., Width 1-1/2 In., Height 1-1/2 In.

Max viscosity is 500 ssu.
I used this conversion chart to calculate from ssu to cst:
http://www.reliabilitydirectstore.co...on%20Chart.pdf
480 ssu = 90 cst so I settled on that as a max (just under max for the meter)

and from this one:
https://www.panamlubricants.com/wp-c...sion-Chart.pdf
To convert Kinematic Viscosities to sus @ 210F, multiply by 4.664.
To convert centistokes to sus @ 100F, multiply by 4.632.

I used the Widman calculator to find the temperature that equaled app 90 cst viscosity.
https://www.widman.biz/English/Calcu...erational.html
Ended up with 89.67 cst @ 58C (or 136.4F)


So, using Mobile 1 V-twin 20W-50:
136 degrees is lowest testing temp to use without concern of maxing this meter.
Just looking for the range is all.
edit:
Mobile 1 V-twin
CST @ 40C (104F) - 172.3
CST @ 100C (212F) - 20.8

While I've enjoyed the conversation, I don't think this testing is going solve most of the issues brought out.
It's going to be hard getting a meter inside the engine.

But it may help with a better understanding of flow rates to and from the engine.
Plus different flow rates from different filters in real time, hopefully.

The 86-90 engines also flow from the bottom to the top.
But going to the pinion first is not quite accurate.
It bypasses the pinion first is closer I'd think.
It does the same as the OSB mod in a sense.
The pinion shaft hole is a certain restricted size and pressure over that is sent to the lifter blocks.
So, as has been brought out, once the system is pressurized, oil flows consistently throughout the feed path based on head pressure from the pump.
Needle cage bearings are still in use for rod bearings also.
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Last edited by Hippysmack; 7th June 2019 at 18:08..
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  #144  
Old 7th June 2019
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feed pump section:

tooth void volume
.144 X .116 X .186 = .003 cu/in
32 gear teeth per rotation X .003 = .096 total volume per rotation
3750 pump rpm (7.5k engine rpm redline) X .096 = 360 cu/in volume
360 / 231 (cu/in per gallon) = 1.56 gal/min

gallon per min @ 1000 engine rpm (500 rpm pump speed) .207 gal/min


scavenge section:

tooth volume
.144 X .116 X .398 = .0066 cu/in
32 gear teeth per rotation X .0066 = .211 total volume per rotation
3750 pump rpm (7.5k rpm redline) X .211 = 791 cu/in volume
791 / 231 (cu/in per gallon) = 3.425 gal/min

gallon per min @ 1000 engine rpm (500 rpm pump speed) .457 gal/min


you can factor 3% pumping loss.
the iron pump feeds through a 3/8 orifice. to figure flow rates through the pin or other components, you would need to factor each porting surface area. each port will have a pressure drop as it leaves the feed to scavenge. since oil leaving the port see c/c pressure, it is almost nil but to be politically correct, you would have to factor it in, toooo much sugar for a doughnut.
all said and done, flow cannot exceed pump capability. as was brought out, a positive displacement pump sees little change over a very wide range, also probably nil.
but to be accurate, any flow testing has to follow a set of standards. when we sell crude oil, temperature MUST be corrected or adjusted as 150* oil and 80* oil has diff volumes. now throw this out, specific gravity plays an important part also as does viscosity.
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  #145  
Old 7th June 2019
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Which oil pump are you basing those numbers on ?
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  #146  
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1974ch
oil pump
another tid bit is that it would take approx .8hp to power the pump
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  #147  
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50 wt oil can be comparable in viscosity to 20W-50 at operating temps.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bustert View Post
feed pump section:
3750 pump rpm (7.5k engine rpm redline) X .096 = 360 cu/in volume
360 / 231 (cu/in per gallon) = 1.56 gal/min

you can factor 3% pumping loss.

each port will have a pressure drop as it leaves the feed to scavenge.

since oil leaving the port see c/c pressure, it is almost nil but to be politically correct, you would have to factor it in, toooo much sugar for a doughnut.

but to be accurate, any flow testing has to follow a set of standards.
specific gravity plays an important part also as does viscosity.

another tid bit is that it would take approx .8hp to power the pump
If you can only see 1.56 GPM @ redline on an IH, that makes me want to go with the 4 GPM meter for the gerotor pumps.

Pumping loss is also something I was wondering about.

The pressure drop you mentioned is the open end I mentioned....nomenclature failing me.

CC pressure on downstroke does play a big roll in speed of scavenge.
It also creates a constant push pull on scavenge oil.
I could see CC pressure playing it's own roll on feed as well at the pressure drop outlets but that may be minimal as you mentioned.
But I agree... way too much sugar.

I think I gave up standards a couple pages ago.

HP drag is inevitable but a necessary evil I'd imagine.

Thank you for running those numbers bustert.
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  #148  
Old 8th June 2019
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the thing about oil weights is a very wide perspective and varies by each mfg and then add in batch runs, never the same.
some wording says: protects like at 50wt but it pours like water.
i would run straight weight oil for testing, as when does the oil change vis is another oil thread with never ending outcome.
although oil have gotten better, way back the fed's did a test on oils and multi-weight oils fail badly as test results show the oils in-ability to actually change vis with lesser branded oil failing quicker. this is the reason i prefer straight oils.
all said and done, i admire those who want answers, if these people did not exist, i guess we would be using long sling shots, hummm, just a thought, maybe the world would be safer.
a large amount of stuff we take for granted comes for home grown engineers (shade tree). just think about it, when we are gone and the future asks what we did, the wiki will have the answers, but hard to explain a harley to some one that never seen on much less rode one.
march on my brother, march on!! i will enjoy the outcome no matter.

Last edited by bustert; 8th June 2019 at 03:59..
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  #149  
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If I can get this going, I will definitely do a 50wt run also.
If nothing else, it'll be a constructive waste of time.
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