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  #21  
Old 21st December 2018
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IXL2Relax View Post
I have edited the graphic to include the, sometimes present, (G) Drain Back Valve in the filters and the 86-90 Pressure Relief Valve in the filter mount...
Can you add arrows showing the flow direction? Both normal and bypass.?

It would be more clear... to me anyway.
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  #22  
Old 21st December 2018
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hippysmack View Post
Can you add arrows showing the flow direction? Both normal and bypass.?

It would be more clear... to me anyway.
OK - You're a hard crowd to please....

How's that - I'm not sure how much more detail I can add without making it an overly 'busy' graphic...

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That looks better!
Thank you.
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  #24  
Old 21st December 2018
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Flow and Pressure of the Sportster oil pump ?
I dont know
However
We hooked a 100 psi gauge right to the oil pump outlet and destroyed the gauge !
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rocketmangb View Post
Flow and Pressure of the Sportster oil pump ?
I dont know
However
We hooked a 100 psi gauge right to the oil pump outlet and destroyed the gauge !
I remember reading that.
Cold starting pressure is much more than hot oil running pressure.

Flow in GPM is probably more important than psi readings when discussing the filter.
I haven't found GPMs for Sportster oil pumps but they operate on very low psi when hot.
GPMs would change between the different year pumps since the feed gerotors started at one size and then got bigger then smaller again.
Oil Pressure Specs

Gauge mounted at oil pump
As checked with hot oil and a gauge at the oil pressure switch location at the oil pump.
The oil pressure switch has to be removed for the gauge to be installed.

1957-1969:
Minimum: 3-7 psi (idle, with spark retarded)
Normal riding conditions: 10-14 psi (6 psi at 20 mph)

1970-1978:
Minimum: 3-7 psi (idle)
Maximum: 15 psi (60 mph in high gear)
Normal riding conditions: 4-15 psi

1979-1985:
Minimum: 4-7 psi (idle)
Maximum: 10-20 psi (3500 rpm)
Normal riding conditions: 4-15 psi

Gauge mounted at tappet hole plug

As checked with hot oil and a gauge at the plug hole on the engine case between the tappets.
The plug between the tappets has to be removed for the gauge to be installed.

1986-1990:
Minimum: 1-7 psi (idle)
Normal riding conditions: 5-30 psi (2500 rpm)

1991:
Minimum: 7-12 psi (idle)
Normal riding conditions: 12-17 psi (2500 rpm)

Gauge mounted at oil filter pad

As checked with hot oil and a gauge at the oil pressure switch location at oil filter pad.
The oil pressure switch has to be removed for the gauge to be installed.

1986-1990:
Oil pressure, when checked at the oil filter pad (oil pressure switch removed), will be 6-10 psi higher than when checked at the tappet plug on the case at idle.
See pressure figures above when checked at the tappet plug hole.

1992-2004:
Minimum: 7-12 psi (idle speed varies from 950-1050 rpm between the different FSMs)
Normal riding conditions: 10-17 psi (2500 rpm)

2013 XR1200X:
Minimum: 16-20 psi (idle)
Normal riding conditions: 40-44 psi (2500 rpm)
Oil pressure relief (50 psi)
It includes an oil cooler with a thermostat that starts to open at 190ºF (88ºC).
The oil pump and the head breathers are a new design.
The oil pump rotors are driven by the cams, the feed rotor is driven off the front intake cam and the scavenge rotor is driven by the rear exhaust cam.
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  #26  
Old 21st December 2018
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Now thing are properly names, the higher the bypass pressure rating, the more the oil pass through the media. The lower the micron, the finer the particule being catch. Now the drain back valve. The particules don't go back to the oil circuit. The drain back valve just act as a stopper so the dirty oil don't return to the engine; one way valve or anti return is the best way to explain it. It's is not design as a little oil tank ready to supply oil to the engine. Filter without the drain back valve a usually place vertically with the thread up.
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Old 21st December 2018
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Wouldn't it be the higher the bypass pressure rating, the more stopped up the filter will have to be to pop off the pressure spring?
The pressure builds higher at the filter from the pump feed, the more that the flow is restricted by the media.
The higher the micron rating (in theory), the more oil will flow through the media.

Then we get into what is a micron.
I created a drawing based off the one from Machinery Lubrication of a micron comparison.


Then we get into why one company's 20 micron filters will allow 40 micron particles to pass the media.
Hhhhmmmmmm.

Last edited by Hippysmack; 21st December 2018 at 16:56..
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Have a read over of this info - It's related to a different bike, but the principles are the same...
http://www.mgnoc.com/article_oil_filters_revisited.html

Collecting all the info contributed & researched...


The pump is hydraulic - it moves oil - it is very strong because it is directly geared and has minimal gear lash - what comes in, it goes out, forcibly IF NECESSARY... The GPM capability will vary somewhat based on resistance, as a function of the efficency of the gerotor pump and the level of wear within the gerotor gears...

The pump is capable of 100's of PSI... The amount of oil passed per revolution is nearly constant, thus the GPMs will increase as the RPMs increase...

The resistance to flow WILL determine the actual pressure (PSI). If little resistance, then low PSI. If much resistance, then high (or very high) PSI...

The physical hoses & routing (bends/kinks/etc.) will create some resistance, the filter material (B) will create some resistance, the check valve (E) will create some resistance and the engine oiling system will create some resistance... Of course, the oil temperature affects the viscosity of the oil. Colder = Thicker, which increases the resistance to flow. Combined at any one specific time, these factors create the PSI necessary to push the GPM load that the pump is supplying...


The filter material (B) (microns) & level of contaminant saturation will affect the resistance and, of course, the level of contaminant saturation varies with usage...

The bypass valve (C) is intended to prevent oil starvation in the engine - but to do so, it must pass UNfiltered oil around the filter material. It does this only when the valve PSI rating is exceeded. This only occurs when the filter material cannot pass enough oil THRU it, thereby creating a higher resistance on the input side, sensed by the bypass valve (C), which then opens to continue supplying some oil around (rather than thru) the filter material...

The Anti-Drain-Back Valve (G) prevents the oil inside the filter from escaping back out the input side of the filter (A). This maintains an oil reservoir (inside the filter) that is ready to supply the engine immediately on start-up, rather than waiting for new oil to fill the filter cavity once the new pump/hose flow has begun...

In a similar way, the Check Valve (E) helps to prevent oil draining out of the engine oiling system when the active flow stops. It has a very low PSI setting so that even a very low movement of oil will pass thru to oil the engine.


The Pressure Relief Valve (H), which is only on the 1986-90 models, is set for about 30psi. This guarantees that the pressure to the oil filter is below that level. But that level of pressure is only present when the oil is cold. Once warm, the normal pressure is below 30psi all the time, even at high RPMS (according to Jorgen in this thread: http://xlforum.net/forums/showthread.php?t=1609218)


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Last edited by IXL2Relax; 21st December 2018 at 18:23..
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  #29  
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IXL2Relax's explanation seems to be spot on.

In 86-91 engines, there is a 'perfect balance' of pressure needed (for a stock system) due to the pressure relief.
1. Enough pressure to keep the check valve open (4-6 psi).
2. Not too much pressure to open the pressure relief valve (30 psi).
3. Not too much differential pressure in the filter to open the filter's bypass (10-16 psi).

In all other Sportsters with spin-on filters;
1. Enough pressure to keep the check valve open (4-6 psi).
2. Not too much differential pressure in the filter to open the filter's bypass (10-16 psi).

None of these conditions will be in sinc during a cold start-up.
The oil will be too thick (to guarantee designed data for normal operating temps).

The filter bypass can open at any given time at cold start-up;
With the bypass opening @ 10-16 psi average (differential) depending on psi setting,
And the media being too slow to pass the thicker oil fast enough,
This can create the differential pressure required to actuate the bypass.
And even faster or more frequent with a half stopped up filter.

Last edited by Hippysmack; 22nd December 2018 at 05:26..
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77-85 engines did not have a built in pressure relief valve.
77-78 engines may or may not have a spin-on filter.
86-91 engines were made with the pressure relief valve in the filter pad.

They got rid of the pressure relief valve for 92 engines.
This was the norm for a while although undoubtedly some newer models went back to the pressure relief (not sure how many).

Does the pressure relief (86-91) have anything to do with the bypass in the filters?
It seems strange to have both.
Makes me wonder if the earlier filters the MoCo used did not have a bypass.

Have all spin-ons always had a bypass or was there a time when they didn't?

From that Moto Guzzie article:
One disadvantage of the full flow system, however,
was that under conditions of high restriction (such as cold oil) through the oil filter,
the oil filter could actually restrict the oil flow to the engine and cause much of the oil to bypass through the oil system's pressure relief valve.
The solution to this potential problem was installing a pressure relief valve inside the oil filter itself.



One idea for 86-91 owners is the pressure relief was nixed in 92 to save money.
The MoCo did a lot to save money but I can't see them sacrificing engine oiling to do so.

Last edited by Hippysmack; 22nd December 2018 at 05:44..
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