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  #21  
Old 29th December 2018
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Desertfox View Post
It really depends on what kind of riding you do. If you want a Sportster engine to produce double the factory output you will have major maintenance and reliability issues. The candle that burns twice as bright only burns half as long. If you are doing a track build , that is one thing. Racing engines are usually torn down and rebuilt after every race. If you have the resources for that , cool. If you are on a limited budget and want to keep the bike for a reasonable length of time, and use it as a daily or semi daily rider with descent reliability then you have to keep your mods street friendly.
In every field where the state of the art is advancing, there are always naysayers claiming it can't be done. And then there are the people figuring out how to do it. We prefer to be the latter.

We have literally thousands of customers in all corners of the globe who have more than doubled the output of their Sportster - in some cases tripled the output - and enjoy using their bike as a daily rider, with no adverse effects on reliability or longevity. That's not an accident, either, we've put a ton of work into making that happen. We don't put race motors on the street.

So keep saying it can't be done. We'll keep right on doing it
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  #22  
Old 29th December 2018
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aswracing View Post
Cool. Well, since this hijack is ok with you, I'm going to just answer his question here, because the answer might be of general interest to others.



OK, so thanks for the clarification, and I now see where you asked that question and didn't really get an answer. Due to our growth, HAMMER Dan and I found that we just couldn't handle all the customer service ourselves, and we brought Alex into the mix. He's a really smart guy and extremely knowledgeable - in fact in many areas, I have to go ask him for the answers - but he's not as wordy as me . And it's a complicated answer, let me see if I can lay it out for you.

Your motor came from the factory with a 9:1 compression ratio, hemi chambers, and mild cams. All three of those things are big obstacles to making power. But you can't address all three of them within a $1000 budget. So you had to make a choice.

Further complicating this is the fact that all three of those things need to be a matched set. That makes it tough to move any one of them very far without bringing the other two along. For example, you really can't put much cam into a 9:1 motor, because adding duration to the cams bleeds off compression and therefore demands a higher compression ratio. Likewise, you can't put much compression into a hemi chamber motor without longer cams, because it's a detonation prone chamber design.

One thing you could do within that budget, that would make a noticeable difference, and work with your other components, and you could build on somewhat later, was a flat top big bore kit. Here, let me show you a chart:



This is an EFI 1200, but for comparison purposes of the three engine sizes, it's valid. Stock cams and stock EFI 1200 heads. There are no other changes to the engine or exhaust or air cleaner or anything else between these pulls, everything else is the same, except the big bore kit and the EFI was mapped in for each configuration. All three configurations have flat top pistons.

Notice what happened. The peak power really didn't change very much, just a couple hp at each step. That's because the peak power is really defined by the breathing capability of the motor, not the displacement.

However, look at the gains through the bottom and middle, in particular it's shown well in the torque curves. Yowzers. That's a big gain over a really wide rpm range. And that's where you spend the majority of your time.

Also note that the power peak moves down the rpm scale a couple hundred rpm with each step of making the motor bigger. That's because the bigger the motor, the bigger the air demand, and therefore the earlier it runs out of breath for a given breathing capability. So even though the peak power increase isn't dramatic, you don't have to wind it out as hard to get your power.

The 1275 with a flat top, under your stock heads, and with .030 head gaskets, is going to raise your compression ratio from the stock 9:1 up to about 9.6:1. That's about the limit with the stock cams and chambers. It's manageable, but you'll need to pull some timing and run premium gas. So the ignition is a really good thing to go with this kit. Curve 4 please.

And both of these things will serve you well if you decide on head work or cams later. When you do the head work, you'll be able to mill the heads a moderate amount and get up to 10:1 or so, which puts you into a good place for say a set of N4 cams. Actual compression won't go up any despite the higher CR due to the later intake close timing of the N4's. The power peak rpm is going to move up when you do that, but you already have the ignition and you can raise the limiter.

So in summary, I think you're on a pretty good track if you're looking for a 90+ kind of result down the road, by adding mild head work and cams. I think the engine kit and ignition are a good start that can be built on.

If you're looking for 100+ down the road, though, I'm going to advise not to mess with your hemi heads. It costs more to take your heads to that level than a modern set of heads costs. 100+ also requires a bigger carb and a really good air cleaner and exhaust. So it's not cheap. But your flat top 1275 pistons and Dyna ignition can support it, and I'll be able to show you how.

If that doesn't answer your question, by all means ask some more.
Thank You, I greatly appreciate the write-up.
The reason I started e-mailing was because it states in the "Hopping Up Your 1200" that headwork is down the line in gains for 04 and newer Sportsters. That tells me that it would be recommended earlier on for older bikes.
Would porting the heads, new ignition and new pistons be a better start for an older 1200?
Or maybe upgrading cams and pistons if nothing else is done for a while after?
My projects navigate between everyday life issues, family emergencies and convincing my wife that my (almost) daily driver needs to be disassembled, as it absolutely needs a new part, so I tend to plan. I'm already thinking if cams are that next part, but that's a far-in-future upgrade.

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  #23  
Old 29th December 2018
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My Hammer build is as reliable as it was stock. I am over 100 HP. Bikes runs and rides like a dream. after several thousand miles I have not had one problem with my bike. I would do it again in a heart beat. Some of us like Harleys and don't want anything else. There are thousands of Hammer built bikes out there. Never hear of any problems on the interwebbs. Go for it.
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Last edited by hexnut; 29th December 2018 at 23:03..
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  #24  
Old 29th December 2018
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skuzeee View Post
Thank You, I greatly appreciate the write-up.
Would porting the heads, new ignition and new pistons be a better start for an older 1200?
What compression ratio are you proposing?

Keep in mind that your hemi chambers are detonation prone. There are limits to how hard you can push the cylinder pressure. You need to match the compression ratio to the cam timing and make sure the combination stays under the detonation threshold (it can all be calculated, by the way). So if you're raising compression significantly without also changing the cams to match, tread carefully. Like I said, even taking you to 9.6:1 with the stock cams, which is what the flat top 1275 does, is going to require careful tuning, when you're talking about hemi heads.

Most high compression pistons for your heads are 10.5:1. Maybe someone makes a smaller dome, I don't know, all the ones I know about are 10.5:1. You run 10.5:1 with your stock cams and hemi chambers and well, good luck with that. It's not something we'd ever put a customer into.

Another question raised by this proposal is the value of the big bore kit as compared to it's incremental cost. If you go buy a set of high compression pistons and properly fit them to your stock cylinders, you're going to spend nearly as much as a 1250 kit and be within a couple hundred of a 1275 kit. So is the additional power that comes from one of those kits worth the incremental cost? Obviously, I'm not an unbiased party. But I've shown you what the 1250 and 1275 bring to the party, so I'll let you decide.

And finally, could you pull this off within your $1K budget?

Those are all questions I'd be asking before I went down that path. I'm not going to sit here and say it couldn't be made to work, but I'd want answers to those questions.

Quote:
Or maybe upgrading cams and pistons if nothing else is done for a while after?
Sure, you could do this. I'd sure put an ignition into the mix, because you're going to need a higher rev limit if nothing else. The cams are going to move the power to the right side of the chart, and almost certainly rob from the left side in the process. Whether that's better or worse than the across the board gains from a 1275 with stock cams, well, again, I'll let you decide. Depends on what matters to you.
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  #25  
Old 29th December 2018
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Very tough to do these in Stages without wasting money.
When I started my hop up on the bike I was committed (insane ?) to the project !
My first purchase was a pair of new head castings from Zanottis to the tune of 550 bucks
So either commit or prepare to settle for less than you really want or do shit over.
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  #26  
Old 29th December 2018
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Quick turn around. My 570s came today. Wasn't expecting them til middle of next week. A nice BD present! Exhaust came yesterday.
With the SERT I have to play with timing and raise the rev limit, I'm sure it will be a noticeable bump.
I'm not looking to bust any magical HP number myself.

PM me your address George.
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  #27  
Old 29th December 2018
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aswracing View Post
What compression ratio are you proposing?



Keep in mind that your hemi chambers are detonation prone. There are limits to how hard you can push the cylinder pressure. You need to match the compression ratio to the cam timing and make sure the combination stays under the detonation threshold (it can all be calculated, by the way). So if you're raising compression significantly without also changing the cams to match, tread carefully. Like I said, even taking you to 9.6:1 with the stock cams, which is what the flat top 1275 does, is going to require careful tuning, when you're talking about hemi heads.



Most high compression pistons for your heads are 10.5:1. Maybe someone makes a smaller dome, I don't know, all the ones I know about are 10.5:1. You run 10.5:1 with your stock cams and hemi chambers and well, good luck with that. It's not something we'd ever put a customer into.



Another question raised by this proposal is the value of the big bore kit as compared to it's incremental cost. If you go buy a set of high compression pistons and properly fit them to your stock cylinders, you're going to spend nearly as much as a 1250 kit and be within a couple hundred of a 1275 kit. So is the additional power that comes from one of those kits worth the incremental cost? Obviously, I'm not an unbiased party. But I've shown you what the 1250 and 1275 bring to the party, so I'll let you decide.



And finally, could you pull this off within your $1K budget?



Those are all questions I'd be asking before I went down that path. I'm not going to sit here and say it couldn't be made to work, but I'd want answers to those questions.







Sure, you could do this. I'd sure put an ignition into the mix, because you're going to need a higher rev limit if nothing else. The cams are going to move the power to the right side of the chart, and almost certainly rob from the left side in the process. Whether that's better or worse than the across the board gains from a 1275 with stock cams, well, again, I'll let you decide. Depends on what matters to you.
Thank you again, that cleared things up for me. I understood that big bore is the go-to way for gains, but I was not sure why other routes aren't considered.


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  #28  
Old 30th December 2018
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Heres a budget 1250 assembled from hand me downs
Flat Top pistons,Home ported XB Heads (04-06 1200 Rubbermount),560 Hammer Cams,Ported stock manifold,HSR42 Mikuni,Daytona TC88A ignition (custom map),V&H Side Shots exhaust,Hammer 3" Air Filter.


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  #29  
Old 30th December 2018
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Wish I had your hand me downs, George!

I know the 570s are bolt ins on the rubbermounts and XB heads but if any of the clearance issues warrant more scrutiny than the others, what would it be? From a "better safe than sorry" standpoint would it be beneficial to replace anything else such as pushrods, rocker arms, valve springs, or lifters,?
I did get the bronze oil pump gear.

Last edited by 60Gunner; 30th December 2018 at 15:45..
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  #30  
Old 30th December 2018
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Originally Posted by 60Gunner View Post
Wish I had your hand me downs, George!

I know the 570s are bolt ins on the rubbermounts and XB heads but if any of the clearance issues warrant more scrutiny than the others, what would it be? From a "better safe than sorry" standpoint would it be beneficial to replace anything else such as pushrods, rocker arms, valve springs, or lifters,?
I did get the bronze oil pump gear.
Do the base circle check: http://www.hammerperf.com/ttxlcamins...html#smallbase

Check the lobe swing clearance, specifically with respect to the pinion race: http://www.hammerperf.com/ttxlcamins...html#lobeswing

Both of those things are fine on more than 90% of the motors of your year, but they should still be checked.

You can change any of the other hardware you mentioned, but you don't need it, and at the end of the day all you'll accomplish is to make your wallet lighter.

If you want to upgrade something, though, the S&S Premium lifters really do run more quietly than other lifters, it's not just hype. They're pricey though.
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