The Sportster and Buell Motorcycle Forum - The XLFORUM®
 

Go Back   The Sportster and Buell Motorcycle Forum - The XLFORUM® > GENERAL AREA > Other Motorcycle Discussion
XLF Blogs XLF Arcade XLF Disclaimer/Privacy Statement/Terms Of Use

Other Motorcycle Discussion Non-Sportster an non-Buell discussion area

Active Threads
0 Hello from Tennessee
Last Post: jharback
Posted On: 38 Minutes Ago
Replies: 6
Views: 89
0 Poll: How Tall are You?
Last Post: geekonabike
Posted On: 1 Hour Ago
Replies: 460
Views: 61,267
0 Replacing Rocker Arm Bushings
Last Post: Hippysmack
Posted On: 1 Hour Ago
Replies: 4
Views: 53
0 Mustang's new seat? Anyone tried it?
Last Post: Adam76
Posted On: 1 Hour Ago
Replies: 11
Views: 273
0 Ride Height Change With Shock Length Change
Last Post: Adam76
Posted On: 1 Hour Ago
Replies: 53
Views: 15,777
6 Aerostich Suit on a Sportster??
Last Post: BWB75
Posted On: 2 Hours Ago
Replies: 101
Views: 18,280
0 Do you use premium gas in your Sportster?
Last Post: Bone
Posted On: 3 Hours Ago
Replies: 1,721
Views: 329,825
0 Hot Chicks on Hot Bikes
Last Post: Toejam503
Posted On: 3 Hours Ago
Replies: 9,470
Views: 1,497,266
0 Riser Fitment Question
Last Post: Toejam503
Posted On: 3 Hours Ago
Replies: 1
Views: 80
0 primary chain adjuster spring load..?
Last Post: 83ironman
Posted On: 3 Hours Ago
Replies: 4
Views: 141
0 Vote for Most Sought After Sportster
Last Post: Ferrous Head
Posted On: 3 Hours Ago
Replies: 327
Views: 66,163
0 changing rocker arm bushings
Last Post: Hippysmack
Posted On: 4 Hours Ago
Replies: 21
Views: 986
0 They Say Three Time's the Charm ...
Last Post: sportsterpaul
Posted On: 4 Hours Ago
Replies: 12
Views: 214
0 Realistic performance guesstimate?
Last Post: Curbside
Posted On: 4 Hours Ago
Replies: 0
Views: 46
0 Help needed slip ons vs full system for new 48
Last Post: Adam76
Posted On: 4 Hours Ago
Replies: 7
Views: 222
0 joyride memories xlx ironhead
Last Post: sportsterpaul
Posted On: 5 Hours Ago
Replies: 6
Views: 132
0 ******* usps
Last Post: oupa
Posted On: 5 Hours Ago
Replies: 9
Views: 303
0 What kind of car lives with your HD?
Last Post: BKB
Posted On: 5 Hours Ago
Replies: 573
Views: 72,885
0 A Weekend at the Races
Last Post: oupa
Posted On: 6 Hours Ago
Replies: 29
Views: 1,417
0 My new buckhorn bars
Last Post: oupa
Posted On: 6 Hours Ago
Replies: 7
Views: 149
0 timing troubles!
Last Post: IronMick
Posted On: 6 Hours Ago
Replies: 17
Views: 384
0 Is this 1200R worth $4500?
Last Post: Bone
Posted On: 6 Hours Ago
Replies: 34
Views: 979
0 This is gonna hurt.
Last Post: Graywolf
Posted On: 6 Hours Ago
Replies: 7,604
Views: 1,440,751
0 Average age of the Ironhead forum users
Last Post: 1977iron
Posted On: 7 Hours Ago
Replies: 434
Views: 74,213
0 WTB: S&S Super E Jets
Last Post: wrkdWS6
Posted On: 7 Hours Ago
Replies: 0
Views: 41
0 Hottie of the day, no nudity.
Last Post: Stairman
Posted On: 8 Hours Ago
Replies: 9,590
Views: 799,496
0 Food porn
Last Post: Stairman
Posted On: 8 Hours Ago
Replies: 1,085
Views: 159,168
4 Grinding noise when revving up
Last Post: Grumpy-Biker
Posted On: 8 Hours Ago
Replies: 2
Views: 101
0 Winter Storm Warning
Last Post: 60Gunner
Posted On: 8 Hours Ago
Replies: 8
Views: 203
0 Mid or forward controls.
Last Post: 5mel42
Posted On: 9 Hours Ago
Replies: 143
Views: 36,617
More...
Members Birthdays
jurneyman (77), AdO650 (63), xlsport (61), darth (58), mcsmokinp (54), stalkie (54), unleashed66 (53), 66xlch (53), lownslow (47), hrg (45)
View Poll Results: How will the MoCo respond to the Indian FTR1200?
XL1200 with no major changes 14 28.57%
XL1200 M8 9 18.37%
XG1200 10 20.41%
Other 16 32.65%
Voters: 49. You may not vote on this poll

Sponsored Links
Reply
 
Share Thread Tools Display Modes
  #21  
Old 20th June 2018
jammantoo's Avatar
jammantoo jammantoo is offline
foot in mouth member
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: trust me, it is in the middle of nowhere
Posts: 462
Sportster/Buell Model: 48
Sportster/Buell Year: 2016
Other Motorcycle Model: Dou-glide
Other Motorcycle Year: 63
Reputation: 859815
jammantoo has a reputation beyond reputejammantoo has a reputation beyond reputejammantoo has a reputation beyond reputejammantoo has a reputation beyond reputejammantoo has a reputation beyond reputejammantoo has a reputation beyond reputejammantoo has a reputation beyond reputejammantoo has a reputation beyond reputejammantoo has a reputation beyond reputejammantoo has a reputation beyond reputejammantoo has a reputation beyond repute
Default

I have to agree Bone, but Indian sales have nowhere to go buy up, they are still a growing mark. Even in the declining market Indian sales are up. and single digits up sure beats double digits down.

Yes potato potato is going sell, but how much longer, HD decline in sales is huge.

The reason is because HD is depending on potato potato and lifestyle, Indian is making inroads because they are offering an alternative that performs. Seen the flat track results for the last few years?

Remember the VR1000 race project? then they said they were going release that engine in a bike. There were guys drooling like a pitbull waiting for that, but instead they take the engine and make it look like a traditional V twin and release it in a long low cruiser style package. And they wonder why it never sold well.

Do the same old thing and get the same old results.

The world is a stage and HDs reputation is center on it right now. They have to respond or admit that they only do what a passing generation wants them too.
__________________
Join the PEANUT CLUB, it gives you an excuse to stop and smell the roses
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 20th June 2018
Bone's Avatar
Bone Bone is offline
Senior Master Custom Bike Builder
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Medford, NJ
Posts: 10,858
Sportster/Buell Model: 1200Lr
Sportster/Buell Year: 2007
Sportster/Buell Model #2: FLHP
Sportster/Buell Year #2: 2016
Other Motorcycle Model: 13 Guzzi V7 / 11 Duc 696
Other Motorcycle Year: 2013
Reputation: 3562972
Bone has a reputation beyond reputeBone has a reputation beyond reputeBone has a reputation beyond reputeBone has a reputation beyond reputeBone has a reputation beyond reputeBone has a reputation beyond reputeBone has a reputation beyond reputeBone has a reputation beyond reputeBone has a reputation beyond reputeBone has a reputation beyond reputeBone has a reputation beyond repute
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jammantoo View Post
I have to agree Bone, but Indian sales have nowhere to go buy up, they are still a growing mark. Even in the declining market Indian sales are up. and single digits up sure beats double digits down.

Yes potato potato is going sell, but how much longer, HD decline in sales is huge.

The reason is because HD is depending on potato potato and lifestyle, Indian is making inroads because they are offering an alternative that performs. Seen the flat track results for the last few years?

Remember the VR1000 race project? then they said they were going release that engine in a bike. There were guys drooling like a pitbull waiting for that, but instead they take the engine and make it look like a traditional V twin and release it in a long low cruiser style package. And they wonder why it never sold well.

Do the same old thing and get the same old results.

The world is a stage and HDs reputation is center on it right now. They have to respond or admit that they only do what a passing generation wants them too.
I don't discount anything you're saying, BUT....

How big does a company want/need to be is always a question.

I mean for decades BMW sold what 50-100k bikes per year.

Triumph came back in the 90s and they just hit 64k bikes last year.

Even at ~240k bikes last year Harley did better than EVERY YEAR THEY'VE EVER BEEN IN BUSINESS BEFORE 2002. Remember in 1986 Harley only sold 36,735 bikes and even 2001 was only 234k.

As a whole the market is still declining. Yes we're seeing a shift of some units from some players like Harley to others. Yes Indian will continue to erode some of that away if Harley doesn't respond but their not about to close their doors anytime soon.

Besides, you can't compare % increase and decline between two companies whose sales are so disparate.

Granted this is 2014 data but still US MC sales 2014:



Source:

http://www.city-data.com/blog/4956-m...united-states/

So in 2014 Suzuki and Polaris were SHARING 5% of the market, that's 2.5% a piece. It takes VERY little additional sales at that point to see single digit growth, and not all that much more to see double-digit.

And in the meantime Harley has debuted a fantastic M8 motor and the most thorough revision of the middle of their line (Softails) in years. I'm hearing more and more metric riders who have given the new Softails a whirl compliment Harley on the overall performance (not just fit, finish, feel, but performance, throttle response, braking, handling).

Now yeah, IF they want to grow again or just remain competitive they can't rest on their laurels. With the Softails and Touring bikes in a good place right now competitively I think we'll see some attention to the Sportster line soon, and yes, perhaps an expansion of the XG line.

So I do think they'll respond. But I don't necessarily think the sky is falling the way some seem to think it is.
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 20th June 2018
Bored now Bored now is offline
Biker
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 82
Sportster/Buell Model: 883
Sportster/Buell Year: 2006
Reputation: 293800
Bored now has a reputation beyond reputeBored now has a reputation beyond reputeBored now has a reputation beyond reputeBored now has a reputation beyond reputeBored now has a reputation beyond reputeBored now has a reputation beyond reputeBored now has a reputation beyond reputeBored now has a reputation beyond reputeBored now has a reputation beyond reputeBored now has a reputation beyond reputeBored now has a reputation beyond repute
Default

HD had everything they needed in a high performance V Twin, it was called the Buell 1125, it compared well with a Duc Panigale 1199 for heavens sake, HD decided to kill it. What a mistake!
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 21st June 2018
felis's Avatar
felis felis is offline
Chief Master Mechanic
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Midwest, USA
Posts: 499
Sportster/Buell Model: XL1200CX Roadster
Sportster/Buell Year: 2016
Reputation: 443400
felis has a reputation beyond reputefelis has a reputation beyond reputefelis has a reputation beyond reputefelis has a reputation beyond reputefelis has a reputation beyond reputefelis has a reputation beyond reputefelis has a reputation beyond reputefelis has a reputation beyond reputefelis has a reputation beyond reputefelis has a reputation beyond reputefelis has a reputation beyond repute
Default

Harley has relied for a long time on their 'Stage' upgrades.
Buy a bike and then start dumping money into it, to get it at a level you like,
or to hang with what others are doing.

If they come out with a straight performance bike - where to go from there?
Never enough right? I'm sure they'd be offering the same 'Stage' upgrade thing again,
because people have become so accustomed to it and it's expected from them.

People who just wanted a bike for performance have always had a lot of other options.
Granted, something from Indian puts it in the made in USA camp,
but I think a lot of people who are into straight up performance will still look elsewhere.
At something like these:
http://www.beautifullife.info/automo...t-motorcycles/
__________________
npg.org
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 21st June 2018
ParrotHead's Avatar
ParrotHead ParrotHead is offline
I am the great Cornholio!
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Near Philly
Posts: 7,625
Sportster/Buell Model: 1200R
Sportster/Buell Year: 2006
Sportster/Buell Model #2: 1200R
Sportster/Buell Year #2: 2007
Other Motorcycle Model: Suzuki GT550
Other Motorcycle Year: 1974
Reputation: 6308984
ParrotHead has a reputation beyond reputeParrotHead has a reputation beyond reputeParrotHead has a reputation beyond reputeParrotHead has a reputation beyond reputeParrotHead has a reputation beyond reputeParrotHead has a reputation beyond reputeParrotHead has a reputation beyond reputeParrotHead has a reputation beyond reputeParrotHead has a reputation beyond reputeParrotHead has a reputation beyond reputeParrotHead has a reputation beyond repute
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jammantoo View Post
true, but remember the Scout can already run circles around a 1200cc Sportster. They are already losing sales to those who want an American V twin in a more sports package than the big twin.

there is a saying, if you want the same old results, keep doing the same old thing. Harley really needs to embrace that right now, the kids buying motorcycles are not buying into the lifestyle, they want more.
I agree and feel we have to wait and see what comes out in the next year or two. It will be interesting if they release something this summer or wait until they make the move to KC in 2019.
__________________
"I won't be wronged, I won't be insulted, and I won't be laid a hand on. I don't do these things to other people and I require the same from them."
John Wayne - "The Shootist"

Check out my Blog for my trip reports:

Click here to listen to my interview on the Motorcycle Men Podcast

Click here for the Sportsterpedia! for technical information & advice
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 21st June 2018
Crusty Crusty is offline
XL FORUM TEAM MEMBER
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Cheviot, OH
Posts: 1,211
Sportster/Buell Model: XLH 1000
Sportster/Buell Year: 1978
Sportster/Buell Model #2: XL1200 R
Sportster/Buell Year #2: 2005
Other Motorcycle Model: XLCH
Other Motorcycle Year: 1979
Reputation: 1230675
Crusty has a reputation beyond reputeCrusty has a reputation beyond reputeCrusty has a reputation beyond reputeCrusty has a reputation beyond reputeCrusty has a reputation beyond reputeCrusty has a reputation beyond reputeCrusty has a reputation beyond reputeCrusty has a reputation beyond reputeCrusty has a reputation beyond reputeCrusty has a reputation beyond reputeCrusty has a reputation beyond repute
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jammantoo View Post

Do the same old thing and get the same old results.
In the early 80's H-D nearly went out of business. Now, they sell more motorcycles in the US than anybody else. They should keep on doing the same old thing.
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 21st June 2018
jammantoo's Avatar
jammantoo jammantoo is offline
foot in mouth member
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: trust me, it is in the middle of nowhere
Posts: 462
Sportster/Buell Model: 48
Sportster/Buell Year: 2016
Other Motorcycle Model: Dou-glide
Other Motorcycle Year: 63
Reputation: 859815
jammantoo has a reputation beyond reputejammantoo has a reputation beyond reputejammantoo has a reputation beyond reputejammantoo has a reputation beyond reputejammantoo has a reputation beyond reputejammantoo has a reputation beyond reputejammantoo has a reputation beyond reputejammantoo has a reputation beyond reputejammantoo has a reputation beyond reputejammantoo has a reputation beyond reputejammantoo has a reputation beyond repute
Default

Bone I see your point, I just feel that the decline in sales for the moco is not proportional to the industry. As noted Indian sales are increasing as is Triumphs. There is growth in brands that are answering the wants of those posed to buy.
Another point that we see is that Harley is considered a luxury brand, Especially in the BT and Touring categories. Younger riders are having difficulty with the price pints of the new Softails, much less the Touring line. Notice that used bikes are now a huge part of a DEALERS marketing scheme, they are going out and looking for clean used bikes to sell. Selling used bikes does not help the MoCo, it helps the dealer and the MoCo is out a sale of a bike'

I hate to use the term but millennials are the market to capture and that market does not view motorcycles as we did when we were that age.

Hell, I am 60 years old Sunday and I consider Harley the biggest MINIVAN dealer in the world. Most modern HD riders want baggers so they can bring along everything and be protected from the wind. What ever happened to freedom, open road and wind in the face?

I digress

I work with younger riders, it is the nature of having a career in construction, most want smaller bikes, the scrambler market is huge right now, as is the hooligan market, 2 markets HD does not participate in. I would say Indian does not either except the Scout and the proposed Dirt Tracker inspired Scout tells me I am wrong.

I really hope HD responds, But in the end that is the MoCos managements decision as to where they want to be in the marketplace. I see they are trying to expand in foreign markets. Maybe the next salvo they fire is going be in that direction.
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
  #28  
Old 21st June 2018
jammantoo's Avatar
jammantoo jammantoo is offline
foot in mouth member
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: trust me, it is in the middle of nowhere
Posts: 462
Sportster/Buell Model: 48
Sportster/Buell Year: 2016
Other Motorcycle Model: Dou-glide
Other Motorcycle Year: 63
Reputation: 859815
jammantoo has a reputation beyond reputejammantoo has a reputation beyond reputejammantoo has a reputation beyond reputejammantoo has a reputation beyond reputejammantoo has a reputation beyond reputejammantoo has a reputation beyond reputejammantoo has a reputation beyond reputejammantoo has a reputation beyond reputejammantoo has a reputation beyond reputejammantoo has a reputation beyond reputejammantoo has a reputation beyond repute
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crusty View Post
In the early 80's H-D nearly went out of business. Now, they sell more motorcycles in the US than anybody else. They should keep on doing the same old thing.
Crusty, in the Early 80s they changed dramatically to achieve that goal. and now their market share is shrinking, it is time to figure out why and stop blaming a down turn in the entire industry. Accepting a industry downturn is one thing, but denying that your share within that downturn is shrinking because your product line does not meet the desires of the public is another.
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 21st June 2018
jammantoo's Avatar
jammantoo jammantoo is offline
foot in mouth member
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: trust me, it is in the middle of nowhere
Posts: 462
Sportster/Buell Model: 48
Sportster/Buell Year: 2016
Other Motorcycle Model: Dou-glide
Other Motorcycle Year: 63
Reputation: 859815
jammantoo has a reputation beyond reputejammantoo has a reputation beyond reputejammantoo has a reputation beyond reputejammantoo has a reputation beyond reputejammantoo has a reputation beyond reputejammantoo has a reputation beyond reputejammantoo has a reputation beyond reputejammantoo has a reputation beyond reputejammantoo has a reputation beyond reputejammantoo has a reputation beyond reputejammantoo has a reputation beyond repute
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by felis View Post
Harley has relied for a long time on their 'Stage' upgrades.
Buy a bike and then start dumping money into it, to get it at a level you like,
or to hang with what others are doing.
I agree, but the younger rider of today, who wants a bike does not value having to dump money into a bike to get it to where they want. Millennials have grown up in a society where instant means just that. want an answer, google it, want a book, download the kindle to your player, want news, stream it in, want attention, post up on social media. Want a performance bike 1200cc v twin, buy a Scout. Because the Sporster will require over a grand just to get to stage one that is just the start to getting where a Scout is.
I agree with you whole heartedly the options are elsewhere and the market is turning to that elsewhere. because lifestyle is not selling to millennials.
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 21st June 2018
hexnut's Avatar
hexnut hexnut is offline
XL FORUM TEAM MEMBER
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: middle Tennessee
Posts: 824
Sportster/Buell Model: Sportster Superlow 1250
Sportster/Buell Year: 2014
Reputation: 803898
hexnut has a reputation beyond reputehexnut has a reputation beyond reputehexnut has a reputation beyond reputehexnut has a reputation beyond reputehexnut has a reputation beyond reputehexnut has a reputation beyond reputehexnut has a reputation beyond reputehexnut has a reputation beyond reputehexnut has a reputation beyond reputehexnut has a reputation beyond reputehexnut has a reputation beyond repute
Default

The sky is not falling yet. Me personally, I think the Harley management are not bikers at heart. Its oblivious they do not want to build an all out race bike to compete in flat track. If they start building performance bikes it will surprise me. In the mean time we have Hammer performance to see us through. I started riding Harleys in 1960. I love them.
__________________
2014 Sportster Superlow, Hammer 1250, smash head work, 560 cams, S&S rockers and lifters. ported throttle body and intake,
Hammer crush air cleaner, Barnett clutch
Tuned by Power Vision
Supertrapp Supermegs exhaust
1200 gearing, super brace
Progressive suspension front & rear
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



Sponsored Links
All times are GMT +1. The time now is 08:24.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
XL Forum® - Linson Media LLC