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  #21  
Old 24th June 2013
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Originally Posted by aswracing View Post
Pushrod length doesn't change piston to valve clearance.
Thanks!

Would the push rod length throw anything off from cam, to lifter, to rockers, to valve?

This is an area i'm not sure about, am and starting to learn about since I've never until now had to deal with the functions of the lifters. Especially at high RPM and running engine very hard. What valve train errors could happen if push rods are too short?

Only just recently learned about lifter blocks. But have not seen any for my model year engine. And curious if my lifter holes would need to be bored to accept tappet blocks. But still going step by step.

Thanks!

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  #22  
Old 24th June 2013
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Quote:
Originally Posted by groovemeisterus View Post
Thanks!

Would the push rod length throw anything off from cam, to lifter, to rockers, to valve?

This is an area i'm not sure about, am and starting to learn about since I've never until now had to deal with the functions of the lifters. Especially at high RPM and running engine very hard. What valve train errors could happen if push rods are too short?

Only just recently learned about lifter blocks. But have not seen any for my model year engine. And curious if my lifter holes would need to be bored to accept tappet blocks. But still going step by step.

Thanks!

Lifter blocks went away in 1991, yet another cost savings from the beloved Motor Co.

Here's the deal ... a hydraulic lifter is self-adjusting. So to the extent the pushrod is too long, the lifter shortens itself, and to the extent the pushrod is too short, the lifter lengthens itself.

So as long as the pushrod length puts the lifter within it's self adjusting range, you're good to go.

If the pushrod is so long that the lifter shortens itself all the way and still isn't short enough, then the valves will never close. You'll lose compression, and the motor may not even run, depending on how bad it is.

If the pushrod is so short that the lifter lengthens itself all the way and still isn't long enough, you'll get slack in your valvetrain. It'll make a racket and may even damage something.

But if you're in between those two points, the lifter automatically goes to the right length. When the cam is on the base circle, the valves will just be closed, and when the cam is at full lift, the valves will be at the lift spec of the cams.

The lifter plunger has about .200" of travel. However, it's really only effective over about .100" of that range, from .050 preloaded to .150 preloaded. You want your pushrod length to be such that you're in that range.

To see how much you're preloaded, make this measurement:



(from our tech article on pushrod length)
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Last edited by aswracing; 24th June 2013 at 18:53..
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  #23  
Old 24th June 2013
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Oh, on that tappet pin clearance issue, check it, my guess is you still have the problem. As far as I know. JIMS lifters are the only ones on the market that have the extended tappet flats as shown in that picture I posted. All the others need to be cut when using high lift cams.

The way you check it is to position the cam to max lift and then put a magnet down in the lifter bore. Pull up on the lifter and measure how much travel you have. If you have less than .060 of clearance, you're in trouble.

You don't want a failure there, it's ugly.

Just an fyi, we had a customer come to us this last winter who had been fighting a valve to piston contact issue. The company that sold him his engine kit and cams had sent him shorter pushrods to fix the problem, which of course did nothing for the problem at all. They, too, thought there was a direct link between pushrod length and lift. He was pretty frustrated and told us in no uncertain terms he was gonna be pissed if our stuff had this problem too. We got the guy fixed up by putting him into components that work properly together (heads, cams, pistons). He said his bike was remarkably quieter Anyway, my point is, it's a common misunderstanding that pushrod length changes lift, even some so-called professionals don't understand how a hydraulic lifter works.

Last edited by aswracing; 24th June 2013 at 07:06..
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  #24  
Old 25th June 2013
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aswracing View Post
Oh, on that tappet pin clearance issue, check it, my guess is you still have the problem. As far as I know. JIMS lifters are the only ones on the market that have the extended tappet flats as shown in that picture I posted. All the others need to be cut when using high lift cams.

The way you check it is to position the cam to max lift and then put a magnet down in the lifter bore. Pull up on the lifter and measure how much travel you have. If you have less than .060 of clearance, you're in trouble.

You don't want a failure there, it's ugly.

Just an fyi, we had a customer come to us this last winter who had been fighting a valve to piston contact issue. The company that sold him his engine kit and cams had sent him shorter pushrods to fix the problem, which of course did nothing for the problem at all. They, too, thought there was a direct link between pushrod length and lift. He was pretty frustrated and told us in no uncertain terms he was gonna be pissed if our stuff had this problem too. We got the guy fixed up by putting him into components that work properly together (heads, cams, pistons). He said his bike was remarkably quieter Anyway, my point is, it's a common misunderstanding that pushrod length changes lift, even some so-called professionals don't understand how a hydraulic lifter works.
Thanks aswracing. Another day of riding and didn't get above 200 degrees oil temp today, and no abnormal noise, cooler out today. We have a machine at work, with x,y, and z axis ability and router type flat drill bit to machine metal parts if need be.

The one thing I do not get, is that engine noise is normal when NOT running hot. But when really riding hot, and long distances, and is HOT out, and engine oil temp gets 200 degrees or so, THEN the noise would start when using old tappets. Like a switch got flipped. Once HOT, engine noise is night a day difference. Loud and mechanical.

The guys at work are good on the machines, but with my particular cams, Bob woods 0.590" lift, small base circles, etc, would the tappets need to still be machined like the Jims? Again, only noticed the noise switch in when oil temp got to 200 or higher, and then the carb idle would change also.

I know heat and expansion make a difference, but if noise only happens when engine is HOT, 200 or higher degrees depending on how hot the weather is, would the tappets being machined to match the Jims fix the issues I am having?

Again, every thing is running great, normal valve train noise, then temp gets 200 or above or HOT, then like a switch is flipped, and the harsh engine noise is there, weather at idle, or cruising speed, and on ole S&S tappets ran hard for 4 or so years. Can def see wear marks from posted pic.

Thanks again. I am an engineer, and once I get a grasp on things the light bulb lights up in my head, but, I'm the type of person where sometimes it takes a few different views to grasp what is happening to understand.

Kinda like reading 5 different books on the same subject, each book adds its own view, then once all views are understood, then can apply if that makes since.

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  #25  
Old 25th June 2013
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If you're getting contact there, you're probably getting it all the time, cold oil or hot. It may be that the thicker oil just cushions the shock and dampens the sound. Personally I would not take a risk there at all. If one of those tappet pins fails the lifter can turn sideways in it's bore. It's not something to take a chance with.

Are you sure those Wood cams have a small base circle? I have some Wood W68S cams and they have a stock base circle and .678 lift.
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Old 26th June 2013
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aswracing View Post
If you're getting contact there, you're probably getting it all the time, cold oil or hot. It may be that the thicker oil just cushions the shock and dampens the sound. Personally I would not take a risk there at all. If one of those tappet pins fails the lifter can turn sideways in it's bore. It's not something to take a chance with.

Are you sure those Wood cams have a small base circle? I have some Wood W68S cams and they have a stock base circle and .678 lift.
Aswracing, Much appreciated for your great feedback!

I called Bob Wood when I was gathering my data. My cams are W-8S 2000, 0.590" lift, as marked on the box. My model year bike is an standard 883 XL 2000 Model year (modded of course). He assured me that my base circles were not the cause, but not sure if he said small base circle, or stock base circle. But said cam circle couldn't be my issue with what I described to him. I'll have to call and double check again base circle size, been looking at so many different causes, my mind got side tracked.

[IMG][/IMG]

Another ride today and no loud engine noise, but with the Feuling HP+ LIFTERS, still no artifacts like the S&S HL2t lifters had. But S&S lifter were ridden hard for several years, redline RPM, burnouts, etc. And so far so good.

Have another long poker ride coming up that should have engine get to at least 200 degrees oil temp. I recently changed oil since put engine back together with amsoil syn, as had before, and oil temp is barely getting above 150 now, and I let run for several minutes longer in drive way when got home tonight to see if oil temp rose, but it did not.

The Feuling lifters state the following, and a sporty expert I was reffered to swears by these lifters...

PRODUCT DETAILS :
Performance hydraulic roller lifters
Optimized oil flow to top end - valves, springs, rockers, shafts & valve guides
Cooler oil and reduced wear
Extends life of top end valve gear
CNC machined and precision ground
Drop in replacement for stock lifters
Dyno developed and track tested
Recommended for use with the Feuling Oil Pump or comparable high volume oil pump
Made in the U.S.A.

Made bold the cooler oil comment, and so far seems correct.

But until It is HOT out, or till sturgis trip ( I trailer, but ride 1000 miles while there so who gives a shit), won't know for sure until either or.

Thanks again!

I'll keep posting as I ride the new lifters more, and see if symptoms come back.

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