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  #11  
Old 30th September 2008
groovemeisterus's Avatar
groovemeisterus groovemeisterus is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aswracing View Post
The W8S has really low TDC lifts ... .183 & .176. These numbers would normally not be a problem with respect to piston to valve or valve to valve contact. However, since you're using 883 heads, without making the measurements, you can't rule it out. 883 heads have longer valves and therefore the valves start out a lot closer to the piston and a lot closer to each other, particularly when larger diameter valves are installed. Much depends on how Branch set up the heads.
Thanks... I'm gonna have to call them and double check for the cams I chose.
Never thought about 883s being that different than 1200 heads with valves.
But now that you mention it, I think I remember maybe reading somewhere
that the valve angles are different than 1200s, but don't remember and can't
find where I read that. Maybe I am thinking of the older shovel heads though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aswracing View Post
The other big thing of course is how much valve travel you have available. Coil bind clearance and also retainer to guide clearance could be an issue. Again, not knowing anything about how your heads are set up, I can't say.
I'm pretty sure my springs are set up to allow up to a .650" lift.
http://www.branchokeefe.com/heads.html

Quote:
Originally Posted by aswracing View Post
This is one of the reasons head shops always want to know what cams you'll be using. They can make sure you've got adequate travel, a spring pack that's up to the job, and enough valve to valve clearance.
I guess my mistake was I was still using my stock cams at the time had heads
ported while researching which cams might go well my my engine combo.
But did make sure I had at least the capability of up to .650 lift cams.

I most likely will get some new lifters also since already working in that
area. Does make since with higher lift cams.

The more I get to higher performance the more I learn I should double
and triple check everything before final assembly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aswracing View Post
One more thing, on a 2000 motor your pinion race sticks out quite a bit more than a 91-99, and as such, a tall lobe like that will try to run into the pinion race:
That I did do. "But" only after spinning the cams all the way around
by hand and finding out that they did make contact(accidentally). I was so tunnel visioned about the basic clearance for lobes while grinding my cam case I didn't even
notice till all done that the cams did in deed hit the pinion. So I went ahead
and slowly but surely grinded as best as possible to have clearance. So
I don't think that is an issue.

Dirty pict( before clean up)... but you might be able to see the grind/clearanced marks


Quote:
Originally Posted by aswracing View Post
But neither of those things likely caused your pushrods to get bent. Some kind of mechanical interference took place.
I am assuming the worst for valve to piston or valve to valve contact.
Valve to piston should be easily seen. But valve to valve I'm not
for sure if I need to compress the springs to extend the valves to look
for contact marks though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aswracing View Post
Bottom line, even though those TDC lifts are moderate and that takes pressure off the Valve to piston and valve to valve issues, at .590 total lift you're getting up there enough that you've got to check some other things. I highly recommend that you read and understand both of these articles:

http://www.nrhsperformance.com/tech_xlcaminstall.shtml

http://www.nrhsperformance.com/tech_valvetopiston.shtml

Good luck.
Thanks much aswracing for your input. I'll read and study your articles.
I was so anxious to get riding that day that I probably wasn't thinking
straight and rushed, and now I won't be riding till new pushrods arrive, and problem
figured out. Now I wish I would have taken the time to check things thoroughly.

Lesson learned. No matter how anxious you are to try out new parts... always double and triple check, and even take notes from the porter or cam manufacture for things to look out for if you are building part
by part at a time $$$ wise until you get determine a decent combo from different
manufactures, as compared to a whole combo already matched.
Buy a part and time goes by and one forgets what was said months ago.


I'm still learning, have been searching for a custom combo that
no one else has just to be different I guess.

Thanks everyone for your input. After I get done taking whole engine
apart, I'll post some picts if I (prob will) find the metal contact that bent
my intake rods. I don't think my exhaust rods are bent since no play.
But should'nt hold my breath until all is taken apart and examined.

Thanks again everyone.

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  #12  
Old 30th September 2008
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Great post. Hope it all comes together.
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  #13  
Old 30th September 2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by groovemeisterus View Post
Branch 30 degree domed piston


Well there's your problem! The pistons in up side over!

883 branch ported Head Chamber


Damn that's pretty
I'm sorry to hear you have to pull the thing apart. I've been there and it sucks. Look on the bright side, I'm not sure where you live, but here in California it's starting to get cold in rainy, good winter project if you have a garage that is
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  #14  
Old 30th September 2008
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aswracing aswracing is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by groovemeisterus View Post
But now that you mention it, I think I remember maybe reading somewhere
that the valve angles are different than 1200s, but don't remember and can't
find where I read that.
Angles are the same between 1200 & 883. 27 degrees on the intake and 31 on the exhaust.

But the 883 valves are longer, to go with the shallower chamber of the 883 head. Therefore when sitting on the seats, they're closer to the piston than a 1200's valves are. You can run out of piston to valve clearance in a hurry. A set of cams that provides ample valve to piston clearance when used with 1200 heads doesn't always have enough when used with 883 heads.

They're also sitting closer to each other. The stock valves are quite a bit smaller diameter than the 1200 valves so this is not an issue with them. But when you start putting bigger valves into 883 heads, it becomes a big issue. Again, you can run out of valve to valve clearance in a hurry.

From looking at your heads, it appears Branch may have removed all 4 seats and put new ones in deeper and used 1200 length valves. But I can't be certain without making the measurements.

Quote:
I'm pretty sure my springs are set up to allow up to a .650" lift.
That could be, but you still have to think about valve to valve clearance. Like valve-to-piston clearance, valve-to-valve clearance doesn't have anything to do with max lift, instead it's a function of TDC lift.

The TDC lift figures on the W8S are quite a bit bigger than the stock "D" cams, but they're still mild in the world of performance cams. Milder than many bolt-in cams, in fact.

Quote:
So I went ahead
and slowly but surely grinded as best as possible to have clearance. So
I don't think that is an issue.
I hope not. But I've seen people really screw up that pinion bearing trying to cut on the race, and that of course requires a full teardown to fix. It doesn't take much grit to ruin that bearing and it's almost impossible to cut it without getting grit in it. That's why I tell people you're much better off to chamfer the lobe:



Quote:
I am assuming the worst for valve to piston or valve to valve contact.
Valve to piston should be easily seen. But valve to valve I'm not
for sure if I need to compress the springs to extend the valves to look
for contact marks though.
Checking valve to piston is best done with clay, as shown in the cam install article. Checking valve to valve does require opening the valves to the TDC lift figure. This is typically accomplished on an assembled head using a fixture that Ron Trock sells:



The fixture also mounts dial indicators for precise measurement of how much each valve is open. Besides checking valve to valve, it's also handy for flow testing a head at various lift points, and for checking total available travel.

But, it can be done without this fixture, if you have a valve spring compressor and can get the keepers off. Without the spring pressure, you can manually open each valve to the TDC lift figure using a caliper for the measurement. Then just measure the distance between the valves with feeler gauges.

I'm very curious as to why Bob recommends adjustable pushrods. IMO, the only reason to run adjustables is if you use a travel limited lifter, i.e. a solid or Hydrosolid, where you need a precise pushrod length. A standard hydraulic lifter has .200 of travel and will work well over about .100 of that range, from .050 to .150 preloaded when cold. So it's not that picky on the pushrod length. Fixed length pushrods are lighter and stronger and don't require expensive collapsible tube kits and don't have as many rub problems. It's just a matter of getting them the correct length, but they're readily available in any length you want, and at a lower price than adjustables. Bob's cams are all stock base circle anyway, so to the extent you need a custom length it's not because of the cams, it's because of things like altered stem protrusions, head decking, and/or thinner gaskets.

Last edited by aswracing; 30th September 2008 at 13:46..
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  #15  
Old 30th September 2008
Jt1200r Jt1200r is offline
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if the exhaust pushrods were installed on the intake . would they get bent like that?
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  #16  
Old 1st October 2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jt1200r View Post
if the exhaust pushrods were installed on the intake . would they get bent like that?

Thanks, but they were installed in the proper locations.
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  #17  
Old 1st October 2008
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Lightbulb

Thanks everyone for their feedback,
and especially to
ASWRACING for their detailed picts and knowledge.

I called and talked with Branch today, and they mentioned
that with these cams that I prob would have problems.

They mentioned after I told him of my delima that
I think the valves would need to be set deeper I think
to make clearance like aswracing mentioned.

I just woke from a nap and can't remember every detail.

But all in all, he said my pistons should be ok if there was
any contact, but that the valves are probably shot, but won't
know for sure until I tear down. It's getting in the low 40s here
in Indiana at night and luckily I have a heated garage to find and fix my mistake.

Before any tear down, gonna do a compression test just to
see. Then tear down and inspect, and then do what needs
to be done to get heads back in order and double triple
check that if/when I send back to branch that all is
set up accordingly with the style of cam I want to use (W8S this time)
so can hopefully just bolt heads on.

Thanks again everyone. This time I am gonna take it slow and easy.

Hope this shows others that it is not a great idea to rush things.

I'll get back with some picts when I get tore apart, and update when all
is well with a dyno.

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  #18  
Old 1st October 2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by groovemeisterus View Post
Hope this shows others that it is not a great idea to rush things.
Hopefully, it was merely lack of lifter travel that bent the pushrod.

This should be a "must-read" for folks new to engine building. It's probably very fortunate the engine failed to fire.

Read info and ask questions. Thanks to meticulous professionals such as NRHS and Axtell, etc., along with knowledgeable laypersons, the XLForum has one of the best online sources of detailed performance and maintenance issues on the net.
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Old 1st October 2008
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Sorry to hear you had to go through all this, Groovemeister.
I hope everything turns out for the best further down the road for you.

Good luck.
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Old 1st October 2008
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Hope you get that back together soon, I will be very interested in seeing what kind of dyno numbers that combo produces. I didn't even know that Woods made cams for the sporty engines. All the articles in American Iron about them never even mention anything about cams for a sporty. Just goes to show how biased the whole industry is. Good luck with that hope it turns out good for you.
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