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  #11  
Old 28th November 2016
jbee jbee is offline
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You're likely going to find that water has got into the tell tale instrument cluster and moisture has damaged the circuit board inside. This can cause either all of the lights to stop working as in your case, or just one or two depending on what has been damaged.

As you are likely still under warranty, the best solution is for a dealer to sort it out.

Sadly this is a situation that has been going on since this LED circuit board style of cluster has been used and for some reason HD still hasn't made it water proof.
If it was me and I was near the end of my warranty or outside of it I would disassembly the housing and carefully apply clear sealant to prevent this problem. Particularly relevant if you're using the bike in all weathers.
Not sure of the price of the sub loom that this cluster is attached to but it's going to be considerably more expensive that the little individual bulbs they used to use years ago.

This instrument cluster operates by the BCM sending a message to the speedometer which in turn provides or removes the ground to the relevant circuit dependant on what function is being used.....this then turns the LED for that particular indicator light on or off, or flashes for the turn signals.
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  #12  
Old 29th November 2016
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jbee
So, the CanBus low is the ground for each indicator light?

Speedo connections, listed in order from factory schematics:
8. CAN hi white/black from ECM 13
2. CAN lo white/red from ECM 14
4. Hi beam indicator blue/white
5. Battery red/orange
6. Neutral indicator white
7. Sensor ground black/green
1. Oil pressure white/orange
9. Fuel level white/yellow
10. Left turn indicator blue pink
12. Right turn indicator blue/orange
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  #13  
Old 29th November 2016
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jbee
No help blowing out with air?
Circuit board typically cracks, resulting in an open circuit...rather than corrosion corrupting adjacent circuits?

Might be worth pulling connector 20 apart and reconnecting.
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  #14  
Old 29th November 2016
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Hello Sportsterdoc.

Been a long day here so hope this makes sense and doesn't come across in gibberish!

Both Canbus high & Canbus low (pins 2 & 8 respectively at speedometer) are purely information lines for data messages between all the various modules. When one module sends a message, this message goes to all the other modules on the Canbus circuit but only the modules that see the message as relevant to them accepts the information and the others ignore it.
1) So when you hit the left hand turn signal button for example.
2) That left hand module sends a message on the Canbus line saying the equivalent of " left turn button pressed" to all the other modules...right hand switch gear, ECM, BCM, ABS module, speedometer etc.
3)The only module that sees this message as relevant information at that point is the BCM. Even though all the other modules have seen the message, they choose to ignore it.
4) As a result of the message sent from the left switch gear module, the BCM sends traditional 12 volt battery power to the left hand turn signals.
5) At the same time, the BCM then sends a message to the speedometer via the Canbus line specifically saying the equivalent of " turn on and flash the left hand side indicator tell tale light". This message again can be seen by all other modules but again is ignored by them.
6) All of the individual LED's in the instrument tell tale light cluster are continuously receiving constant 12 volt power from the red/orange battery power wire coming up from connector 20. This wire has a solder join so that battery power is also received at the speedometer housing to power its circuits up also.
This is one area worth checking if all the LEDs are out as it could be that the solder join on the battery power wire (pin 6 at connector 20) is broken and then no power is being received at the cluster but the speedo would still work.
All the LEDs are waiting for a return to earth which is provided by the speedometer and it gives that earth to the relevant LED it is being asked to switch on or off. I presume via the ground wire ( pin 7 at the speedometer Green/black)

I'm slightly dubious of that last comment as I've been taught that the sensor ground line is 5 volt and this also a green/black wire. But I don't believe the speedo ground is called "sensor ground" even though it shares the same return wire to earth as some of the bikes sensors. However I see this as the only likely return path to earth from the speedometer to the chassis/battery. So there may be some circuitry in the speedometer to convert that 12 volts down, or maybe it doesn't need to. Sadly, I'm lacking of knowledge in that area to confirm 100%.

I've got a couple of these tell tale light clusters at work that have failed and when I get a moment, I'll take some photos to give a better idea of the corrosion that is suffered by the circuit board. Although my time is short just now so please bear with me on that.
Some are worse than others but it seems only a tiny amount in the wrong place is sufficient to cause problems.On a small amount, all the LEDs fail but the most common is the left had side turnsignal LED which I presume suffers because of the bike leaning over on the side stand.
I'll also cut the loom open on one so you can see the actual layout of the wiring coming up from connector 20 and how the wiring links between the speedometer and light cluster.
as well a this, I've got a speedometer that I've taken apart for similar reasons and will photograph that as well.
However, unlike many on here who seem to have sussed it out, I'm not able to transfer photos directly onto this forum, maybe because I'm not a paid member, but can provide a link to photobucket.

As for blowing the moisture out, I think it comes down to knowing it is there in the first place. The first time you'll notice is when there is an issue and that seems to be only once the circuit board is water damaged, by which time it's a little to late for most who aren't savvy with electronics.
Hence my suggestion to take it apart and try and seal it before problems arise.
I've personally not seen a problem with the boards cracking but never say never. From what I've observed, it seems to me that the assembly of the constituent parts in the tell tale light cluster doesn't take into account the ingress of water.
I'm sure someone with the correct knowledge would be able to salvage the board and bring it back to life as it seems pretty basic but from a workshop labour time perspective versus cost of a new part it isn't justified. I dislike saying that as I'm from a time where you'd repair and fix parts, not just replace them. The days of me boring out 883 cylinders to 1200, building spoked wheels or repairing starters etc can no longer make fiscal sense when a new barrel or 1200 conversion is cheaper to take out of a box.

Anyway, I'm getting all misty eyed about old days here so I'd better leave it at that!!

Last edited by jbee; 29th November 2016 at 23:54.. Reason: Poor spelling
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  #15  
Old 30th November 2016
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Lots of good info, jbee.
I need to study it before asking more questions.
Looking at schematics, I did not see how the indicator light circuits are completed.
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  #16  
Old 30th November 2016
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Battery power is given to each of the LEDS separately from the red/ orange wire coming up from connector 20. It does this internally on the circuit board for the tell tale light cluster. So one red/orange wire is going into the board where it then uses the board to send the power to each LED.
Then each individual LED has a wire coming from the circuit board and going directly into the speedometer at the pin numbers you've mentioned above.
Pin 1 (white/orange) Oil Pressure Light for example which goes into the speedometer should actually be thought of as the earth wire from the LED situated on the circuit board of the tell tale light cluster..
However, the last piece of the puzzle is that the final part of the earth circuit's return is controlled by the speedometer which in this instance is waiting to be told by the BCM when to allow this full return path to earth.
This would happen when the oil pressure is low or before engine start and it provides an earth to pin no E3 at the BCM.
When the BCM registers this earth from the pressure switch it then sends a Canbus message to the speedo telling it to allow the circuit to be completed on the oil pressure switch LED by providing a return to chassis ground on the ground wire pin 7 green/black at the speedometer connector.
At that point the LED will light up.
After engine start, when oil pressure is increased, the BCM no longer receives that ground from the pressure switch at pin no E3 so it tells the speedo via a CAnbus message to stop providing a ground to the white/orange wire coming from the circuit board.
As a result the LED no longer has an earth and the light goes out.

So essentially, the speedometer acts as a ground for each of these wires coming from the instrument tell tale light cluster
pin 1 oil light
pin 4 high beam
pin 6 neutral light
pin 10 left turn signal
pin 12 right turn signal

But it will only do this once it has received a message from the BCM telling it to do so.
The BCM in turn will only send that message once it sees or is told to do so by the relevant circuit being activated.
As you can see with my example above, not all of the circuits for the tell tale lights communicate with the BCM via a Canbus message.
The other circuit that doesn't and works similar to the oil pressure switch is the neutral light which again provides an earth to the BCM, but this time at pin no D3.

But in all cases, it's the BCM which is telling the speedo via Canbus messages which tell tale light LED to provide an earth to allow completion of the circuit and therefore allow that LED to light up. Or to turn the LED off dependant on the message it is sending on the data line.

Last edited by jbee; 30th November 2016 at 00:53.. Reason: Additional information
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  #17  
Old 30th November 2016
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Thank you for the tutorial. I think I generally understood, but it sounds more like the BCM is closing the ground, electronically (thyristor?) rather than the speedo.
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  #18  
Old 5th December 2016
jbee jbee is offline
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Hi there Sportsterdoc,
Forgive me not getting back until now. It was late night when I was posting and reading my posts back I can tell I was tired!
The 5 volt sensor ground I mentioned makes no sense. So I'm pretty sure that the ground wire at the speedometer is the return path to allow the LEDs to light.
Regards your last comment, as far as I'm aware it is a circuit inside the speedometer that closes the ground, rather than the BCM. As you suggest, something akin to a thyristor would likely do the job.

I'll post some images shortly to show what I've often seen when the instrument cluster lights stop working. Of course, it's not saying it's the only reason, but as yet it's by far the most common.

Last edited by jbee; 5th December 2016 at 14:25.. Reason: Changed information
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Old 5th December 2016
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Okay, that looks like it worked!
A big thank you to Folkie for his thread regards posting images on the forum.

So...some more photos

First the speedo loom as it comes on a 2014 and later Canbus model Sportster



Now with the outer conduit removed......the cable ties were put on by me to keep the shape of the wiring



Wiring separation between speedometer connector and instrument tell tale light cluster


Last edited by jbee; 5th December 2016 at 14:26.. Reason: poor english
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  #20  
Old 5th December 2016
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The arrow signifies where there is a solder join on the red/orange 12volt power wire going to both the speedometer connector to power the circuit and also to the light cluster to provide power to the circuit board and LEDs.




An exterior view of the light cluster housing. One can see corrosion around the perimeter.





Next, the cover removed........





Now, the damaged circuit board





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