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  #1  
Old 3rd August 2015
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Question Do I need performance Oil Pump? Which One?

I finally came to the conclusion that my 2000 stock 883 oil pump isn't keeping up when engine gets really hot. Just getting back from Sturgis Rally 2015 75th,(we go early for non crowded riding in the hills) and am using SAE 60. Always at first all is good. Then after engine gets super hot, and engine oil starts to thin out, the lifters start to collapse making that annoying mechanical noise, and the timing changes, hence I got to change to idle after hit a stop sign or light or what ever.

After cool down all is good. Then happens only when hot.

I did a preliminary search in here but seen some info pertaining to 07 and up only.

Not sure if I need new hi flow oil pump so lifters won't collapse when engine oil thins, or if also or maybe just need oil cooler or even both. Yes oil cooler only works when moving though.


Thanks for any info on pumps etc or feedback in general. Thinking I finally might be in the right direction to fix my issue.

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  #2  
Old 3rd August 2015
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Unless your oil pump is damaged, it won't need to be replaced on a stock-ish motor. The solid mount Evo's don't have oiling issues.

The factory manual for your bike calls for 25w50 oil, not straight 60w, FYI.

Its not normal to have to re-adjust your idle once the bike warms up. Do you have an intake/exhaust leak? Is your choke functioning properly?

Your lifters should not be collapsing enough to cause valve train issues when your bike warms up. Maybe you have some bad lifters or they are clogged/gummed up? Maybe you have a partially clogged oil line? do you have junk in the bottom of your oil tank?

Do you have air in the oil pump or lines and it needs to be bled?

Its possible that your oil pump is worn and needs rebuilt, but they commonly go 50,000+ miles without problems. How many miles are on your bike?

Do you run the stock pushrods, or aftermarket adjustable ones? If aftermarket adjustable ones, make sure they are set correctly.
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  #3  
Old 3rd August 2015
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That doesn't sound like an oil pump issue to me. Lifters collapsing would be a lifter issue or possibly something else. I wouldn't jump straight to oil pump.

I've got 50k on my stock 2002 pump and I've had no issues. Even when my oil temps are close to 240F with 15W-50 oil.
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  #4  
Old 4th August 2015
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Thought signature would show my setup. Branch ported heads, 30 degree pistons, bob woods 590 cams, mikuni 42 carb, SE heavy breather, SE cone ign module.

Lifters do not collapse just after warm up. After a long while riding in hot weather, engine oil thins out to watery like liquid, in which viscosity has broke down from heat.

Lifters collapse when engine oil thins out after riding a while. Lifters need non broke down oil to not collapse.

After engine cools, oil cools and becomes more oil like again... Thicker.

Engine is highly modified. And oil pump needs upgraded, and low oil pressure light has came on when engine has gotten hot in which oil pressure has dropped since oil viscosity has broken down from extreme heat.

Had multiple people tell me same thing after I explained situation.

Hi flow oil pump to keep up with demand, and the better scavenging effect to keep oil cooler.

Lifters are good. Makes since that lifters work just fine until they all start collapsing when oil thins.

Why i upgraded to sae 60 wt cause of engine temps.
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  #5  
Old 4th August 2015
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A view of the pre 2007 pump (2003 in this case) and the 2007 one. From the outside they are identical. The new one has a larger scavenge section. While you've got the cam chest open you might consider a bronze gear just for the peace of mind.
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  #6  
Old 4th August 2015
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Quote:
Originally Posted by groovemeisterus View Post
Thought signature would show my setup. Branch ported heads, 30 degree pistons, bob woods 590 cams, mikuni 42 carb, SE heavy breather, SE cone ign module.

Lifters do not collapse just after warm up. After a long while riding in hot weather, engine oil thins out to watery like liquid, in which viscosity has broke down from heat.

Lifters collapse when engine oil thins out after riding a while. Lifters need non broke down oil to not collapse.

After engine cools, oil cools and becomes more oil like again... Thicker.

Engine is highly modified. And oil pump needs upgraded, and low oil pressure light has came on when engine has gotten hot in which oil pressure has dropped since oil viscosity has broken down from extreme heat.

Had multiple people tell me same thing after I explained situation.

Hi flow oil pump to keep up with demand, and the better scavenging effect to keep oil cooler.

Lifters are good. Makes since that lifters work just fine until they all start collapsing when oil thins.

Why i upgraded to sae 60 wt cause of engine temps.
I run 70 wt oil in the summer. Oil temp is steady at 190.
No matter how thick oil is it will thin out. When the engine is cold
it is relatively quite but when it warms up it gets louder as far as
valve train noise goes. It was explained to me that the engine
expands when it gets hot causing more valve lash. Now Harley says
because the engine has hydraulic lifters they should adjust accordingly
to maintain proper valve lash. What a crock. If that were true then
valve noise would not increase. I have been searching for a way to
run as quite hot as it does when cold since I bought the bike. Needless
to say I have been unsuccessful to date But I am still searching.
One thing more when the oil thins out it should flow better or easier
than when it is thick. Less resistance.
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  #7  
Old 4th August 2015
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Millions of automotive engines use the same hydraulic lifters that are used in HD's and they self-adjust fine. Hydraulic lifters are well-proven, hell, they were invented in the thirties.

Consider a couple other possibilities:
  • Lifters are steel, and they're sitting in an aluminum engine case. Aluminum expands with heat at almost twice the rate of steel. So the clearance grows as the motor heats up, reducing the pressure. FYI, before the motor company figured out they could save 5 bucks a bike, the motors had replaceable tappet blocks.
  • The clearance between the rocker shafts and their supports grows with temperature for the same reason. If that rocker shaft starts turning back and forth, it makes a racket. Look for witness marks on the pushrod side bolts that hold down the rocker boxes.
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Old 4th August 2015
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aswracing View Post
Millions of automotive engines use the same hydraulic lifters that are used in HD's and they self-adjust fine. Hydraulic lifters are well-proven, hell, they were invented in the thirties.

Consider a couple other possibilities:
  • Lifters are steel, and they're sitting in an aluminum engine case. Aluminum expands with heat at almost twice the rate of steel. So the clearance grows as the motor heats up, reducing the pressure. FYI, before the motor company figured out they could save 5 bucks a bike, the motors had replaceable tappet blocks.
  • The clearance between the rocker shafts and their supports grows with temperature for the same reason. If that rocker shaft starts turning back and forth, it makes a racket. Look for witness marks on the pushrod side bolts that hold down the rocker boxes.
So what you are saying is when my engine heats up
the increase in tappet noise is not the tappets at all it
is the rocker arm shafts.
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  #9  
Old 4th August 2015
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 81Fe View Post
Unless your oil pump is damaged, it won't need to be replaced on a stock-ish motor. The solid mount Evo's don't have oiling issues.

The factory manual for your bike calls for 25w50 oil, not straight 60w, FYI.

Its not normal to have to re-adjust your idle once the bike warms up. Do you have an intake/exhaust leak? Is your choke functioning properly?

Your lifters should not be collapsing enough to cause valve train issues when your bike warms up. Maybe you have some bad lifters or they are clogged/gummed up? Maybe you have a partially clogged oil line? do you have junk in the bottom of your oil tank?

Do you have air in the oil pump or lines and it needs to be bled?

Its possible that your oil pump is worn and needs rebuilt, but they commonly go 50,000+ miles without problems. How many miles are on your bike?

Do you run the stock pushrods, or aftermarket adjustable ones? If aftermarket adjustable ones, make sure they are set correctly.
All factory service manuals call for 60w above 80f, evo,twin cam,big twin or sportster,
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Old 4th August 2015
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Quote:
Originally Posted by squekster View Post
So what you are saying is when my engine heats up
the increase in tappet noise is not the tappets at all it
is the rocker arm shafts.
No, absolutely not, not saying that at all. I'm just pointing out that there are multiple possibilities about what's going on beyond just this theory that the tappets don't work because the oil is too thin. Clearances in the motor are changing with heat. That may be reducing the supply of oil to the lifter, or it may be allowing the rocker shafts to move.
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