The Sportster and Buell Motorcycle Forum - The XLFORUM®
 

Go Back   The Sportster and Buell Motorcycle Forum - The XLFORUM® > SPORTSTER MOTORCYCLE FORUM > Sportster Motorcycle Era Specific and Model Specific > Ironhead Sportster Motorcycle Talk (1957-1985)
XLF Blogs XLF Arcade XLF Disclaimer/Privacy Statement/Terms Of Use

Notices

Ironhead Sportster Motorcycle Talk (1957-1985) For all those that wanna talk about Ironhead Sportster Motorcycles

Active Threads
0 Hot Chicks on Hot Bikes
Last Post: cal43
Posted On: 17 Minutes Ago
Replies: 12,716
Views: 3,073,721
0 Official XL Forum Random Image Thread (NO NUDITY!)
Last Post: cal43
Posted On: 19 Minutes Ago
Replies: 53,044
Views: 8,986,665
0 This is gonna hurt.
Last Post: cal43
Posted On: 20 Minutes Ago
Replies: 9,272
Views: 2,188,177
0 Black Bike Bible
Last Post: cycowrencher
Posted On: 21 Minutes Ago
Replies: 2,586
Views: 1,272,667
0 Hottie of the day, no nudity.
Last Post: cal43
Posted On: 21 Minutes Ago
Replies: 34,040
Views: 4,103,548
0 Allegheny National Park III
Last Post: sprink
Posted On: 25 Minutes Ago
Replies: 101
Views: 7,057
0 Hot Rods, Rat Rods, and Customs.
Last Post: cal43
Posted On: 27 Minutes Ago
Replies: 4,951
Views: 1,017,099
0 What did you do for your sporty Today?
Last Post: cycowrencher
Posted On: 35 Minutes Ago
Replies: 7,871
Views: 1,369,204
0 Keep & Kill
Last Post: Crusty
Posted On: 1 Hour Ago
Replies: 26,913
Views: 1,562,105
0 Alternative to stock clutch cable?
Last Post: paulc
Posted On: 1 Hour Ago
Replies: 1
Views: 78
0 Rear Brake Squeal Fixed
Last Post: SonWon
Posted On: 2 Hours Ago
Replies: 12
Views: 756
5 Removing primary engine sprocket nut with heat gun, special caution needed?
Last Post: Ferrous Head
Posted On: 6 Hours Ago
Replies: 11
Views: 226
0 Rocker Arm Acorn Nut Torque Problems..
Last Post: Ferrous Head
Posted On: 6 Hours Ago
Replies: 17
Views: 7,521
0 Upside Down Monoshock IH - A Longterm Project
Last Post: Ferrous Head
Posted On: 7 Hours Ago
Replies: 335
Views: 74,483
0 re rocker arm cover spewing out oil
Last Post: Flam
Posted On: 7 Hours Ago
Replies: 2
Views: 60
0 Informed reviews!
Last Post: IronMick
Posted On: 7 Hours Ago
Replies: 8
Views: 323
0 Coulda' - Shoulda' - Woulda' - Solenoid/Bendix?
Last Post: Ferrous Head
Posted On: 8 Hours Ago
Replies: 57
Views: 1,538
0 R.I.P.Meat Loaf
Last Post: deguireb
Posted On: 11 Hours Ago
Replies: 7
Views: 362
0 my motorcycle trailer (goes down flat, comes back up)
Last Post: adri
Posted On: 11 Hours Ago
Replies: 3
Views: 141
0 Short in electrical system? Confused about points and ignition coil
Last Post: sungod
Posted On: 13 Hours Ago
Replies: 20
Views: 635
0 1980 Shovelhead WideGlide
Last Post: ChinCactus
Posted On: 13 Hours Ago
Replies: 1
Views: 109
0 Speedometer
Last Post: sportsterdoc
Posted On: 13 Hours Ago
Replies: 3
Views: 225
0 Primary thread
Last Post: RandallM
Posted On: 13 Hours Ago
Replies: 16
Views: 349
0 Another question re: Microsquirt
Last Post: Iron Mike
Posted On: 14 Hours Ago
Replies: 52
Views: 1,527
0 Your Riding Thoughts & Attitudes
Last Post: wedge
Posted On: 15 Hours Ago
Replies: 20
Views: 1,571
0 weight loss thread
Last Post: Steve9
Posted On: 16 Hours Ago
Replies: 76
Views: 29,102
0 Dyno Test Results: W Cams versus D Cams
Last Post: Jonny48
Posted On: 17 Hours Ago
Replies: 12
Views: 7,476
0 2022 Sportsters
Last Post: Nibelungen
Posted On: 17 Hours Ago
Replies: 26
Views: 1,596
0 VOES issues? Adjustments needed?
Last Post: Edster
Posted On: 17 Hours Ago
Replies: 3
Views: 137
0 LED Smoked Turn Signals (Arlen Ness & Custom Dynamics)
Last Post: cbzdel
Posted On: 18 Hours Ago
Replies: 0
Views: 43
More...
Members Birthdays
Reynoldston (81), showmebandit (68), Hoppy1313 (68), FredrikK (66), Toejam503 (66), YO MUDA (63), Altopass (62), tim 2007xl1200c (55), w9awx (49), 3xtrastout (43)
Reply
 
Share Thread Tools Display Modes
  #11  
Old 27th November 2021
Ferrous Head's Avatar
Ferrous Head Ferrous Head is offline
XL FORUM TEAM MEMBER
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Sunshine Coast
Posts: 7,583
Sportster/Buell Model: XLB, XLCH, Sporton
Sportster/Buell Year: 1962
Sportster/Buell Model #2: XLCH
Sportster/Buell Year #2: 1966
Other Motorcycle Model: XLCH (Another one)
Other Motorcycle Year: 1966
Reputation: 3148938
Ferrous Head has a reputation beyond reputeFerrous Head has a reputation beyond reputeFerrous Head has a reputation beyond reputeFerrous Head has a reputation beyond reputeFerrous Head has a reputation beyond reputeFerrous Head has a reputation beyond reputeFerrous Head has a reputation beyond reputeFerrous Head has a reputation beyond reputeFerrous Head has a reputation beyond reputeFerrous Head has a reputation beyond reputeFerrous Head has a reputation beyond repute
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by DR DICK View Post
What you have here is not uncommon.

Think of it like this, you take two engines one being a 1970 the other any 72 to 76 engine.

You break down the 70 engine and replace the crankcases cylinders and heads and probably oil pump using the 72 to 76 engine components.

all of the other parts will be 1970 stuff.
use 70 xlch or xlh parts listings as applicable.
Haven't done a trial fit of the tin primary drive setup.
I might just try a trial fit of the tin primary stuff today just to see if it does fit.

BUT ! It just looks to me like the boss that holds the chain adjuster is out too far. In other words the chain would foul the chain adjuster.

If the cases were apart I could always mill the boss but I would have to pull the engine down to do that.

Also, I want this to be electric start. It's no longer a race engine. It's going on the road. Possibly something my youngest daughter will inherit.

She's looking at Ducati's at the moment. Not that I'm against them either.

So all I need to make this set up work is a -70 (-70A) sprocket.

I think.

I'm guessing most people looked at retrofitting a 900 style clutch as a backwards step. Considering the amount of stuff that has to be changed your unlikely to ever go down that road unless you are building a basket case and you had all the required parts to hand.

I would have just bought a Barnett clutch and been done with it. But I have what I have. And I know these clutches can be made to handle whatever you throw at them.
__________________
"I know only too well the evil that I propose. But my inclinations get the better of me."
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 27th November 2021
Ferrous Head's Avatar
Ferrous Head Ferrous Head is offline
XL FORUM TEAM MEMBER
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Sunshine Coast
Posts: 7,583
Sportster/Buell Model: XLB, XLCH, Sporton
Sportster/Buell Year: 1962
Sportster/Buell Model #2: XLCH
Sportster/Buell Year #2: 1966
Other Motorcycle Model: XLCH (Another one)
Other Motorcycle Year: 1966
Reputation: 3148938
Ferrous Head has a reputation beyond reputeFerrous Head has a reputation beyond reputeFerrous Head has a reputation beyond reputeFerrous Head has a reputation beyond reputeFerrous Head has a reputation beyond reputeFerrous Head has a reputation beyond reputeFerrous Head has a reputation beyond reputeFerrous Head has a reputation beyond reputeFerrous Head has a reputation beyond reputeFerrous Head has a reputation beyond reputeFerrous Head has a reputation beyond repute
Default

I had considered building some copies of this engine. The world has come a long way in terms of fabricating things since this was first built. Or nearly built.

Most of us have always thought Harley missed the boat when it came to some basic things on the Sportster.

Head and cylinders should have been in aluminum. We all know that.

The engine lives happily with larger bores and strokes. We all know that.

But since S&S stopped doing the rotating assemblies it's all becoming harder.

The engine was never finished and I don't know why. It was pretty close and I suspect the man who built this had the capability to finish it. There appears to me to be no serious problems that would have halted the project.

I'm still guessing it was being built for Dean Hummer and i might be him that halted the project. My thinking is he hung up his leathers at just about the same time this was being built.

But I really don't know. I can't find anyone who knows anything at all about this particular engine. Perhaps if it had been finished it would have popped up in a magazine like the Aluminum s Steam Roller did.

If (when) I get this finished I might offer an article to Jim Scaysbrook (Australasian Old Bike) just to let people see it.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 28th November 2021
DR DICK's Avatar
DR DICK DR DICK is offline
Senior Master Custom Bike Builder
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 6,482
Reputation: 455163
DR DICK has a reputation beyond reputeDR DICK has a reputation beyond reputeDR DICK has a reputation beyond reputeDR DICK has a reputation beyond reputeDR DICK has a reputation beyond reputeDR DICK has a reputation beyond reputeDR DICK has a reputation beyond reputeDR DICK has a reputation beyond reputeDR DICK has a reputation beyond reputeDR DICK has a reputation beyond reputeDR DICK has a reputation beyond repute
Default

the readers digest (condensed) version of primary drive & clutch setup 57-83.

57 to 66:
this is the original drive. All bikes in these years got the same setup. The only difference being the XLCH did not use the compensating sprocket or the aluminum cover with the compensating sprocket oiling system. That being said, you could interchange any parts of these on xlh. the ch tin cover didnt allow room for compenastor, you had to use solid sprocket wiht this cover. all these bike were kick start only.

67 to 69:
67 to 69 XLCH remained as it was previously.
But in 67 there was a major deviation on the XLH. The electric start was added.
In order to fit the electric start a ring gear needed to be fitted to the clutch drum.
This created a problem because the primary chain was situated where to ring gear needed to go.
The primary chain had to be moved, and it was.
The chain got moved 7/16" outward. This allowed enough room for the ring gear.

What must be understood is that the clutch drum itself remained in the exact same spot. The primary chain got shifted across the drum towards the derby by 7/16 inches. This shift meant the needle bearing in the clutch drum was no longer directly under the primary chain. So a second needle bearing stacked on top of the first one to get a bearing back under the primary chain.

All of this This required a new front sprocket that was also shifted the same 7/16 of an inch. this was accomplished by a new compensating front sprocket. all the new components ended with -67 pert numbers.

Now that the primary chain was moved out seven sixteenths of an inch the skid shoe also needed to be moved out that much. On a 1967 XLH this is accomplished with a spacer. this spacer has no part number in the parts book but anyone with a 67 XLH will tell you that it exists. in 68> this change gets intergrated into the crankcase boss.
These these 67 thru 69 XLh crankcases were the first ones with the hump.

1970
the XLH remains the same as it was in 69.
The XLCH is where the next change came in.
The tin cover and the early drive are now history. The 1970 XLCH was an XLH with the electric start removed and a Kickstarter added. Adhering to the previous standards the 1970 XLCH got a solid front sprocket. this new sprocket has a dash 70 part number. It also got a new nut, again with the dash 70 part number.

71-74
the new wet clutch replaced the venerable old dry clutch.
The drive for XLCH used -70 solid sprocket, where as the XLH used the -67 compensator.

75-76
the compensating sprocket is retired. All bikes got fitted with a solid -70 sprocket.

77-83
changes to the crankcase and sprocket shaft necessitated a new front sprocket configuration. This is also a solid sprocket same offset as previous but had a larger boss for this engine oil seal.
__________________
D.D._____________________________-o&o____________________________
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 28th November 2021
Ferrous Head's Avatar
Ferrous Head Ferrous Head is offline
XL FORUM TEAM MEMBER
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Sunshine Coast
Posts: 7,583
Sportster/Buell Model: XLB, XLCH, Sporton
Sportster/Buell Year: 1962
Sportster/Buell Model #2: XLCH
Sportster/Buell Year #2: 1966
Other Motorcycle Model: XLCH (Another one)
Other Motorcycle Year: 1966
Reputation: 3148938
Ferrous Head has a reputation beyond reputeFerrous Head has a reputation beyond reputeFerrous Head has a reputation beyond reputeFerrous Head has a reputation beyond reputeFerrous Head has a reputation beyond reputeFerrous Head has a reputation beyond reputeFerrous Head has a reputation beyond reputeFerrous Head has a reputation beyond reputeFerrous Head has a reputation beyond reputeFerrous Head has a reputation beyond reputeFerrous Head has a reputation beyond repute
Default

I had forgotten about the spacer thing.

I once threw one away. Came with a set of cases. No adjuster but the spacer was on it. I thought it was a "bodgey" or a mistake of some kind. Sorry.

But this does all leave me with having to run the 1870 sprocket. Maybe no big deal. I hope.

Any idea what the difference is with the -70 and the -70A ?

I was going to presume the backspacing was the same at least and use one of them.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 28th November 2021
DR DICK's Avatar
DR DICK DR DICK is offline
Senior Master Custom Bike Builder
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 6,482
Reputation: 455163
DR DICK has a reputation beyond reputeDR DICK has a reputation beyond reputeDR DICK has a reputation beyond reputeDR DICK has a reputation beyond reputeDR DICK has a reputation beyond reputeDR DICK has a reputation beyond reputeDR DICK has a reputation beyond reputeDR DICK has a reputation beyond reputeDR DICK has a reputation beyond reputeDR DICK has a reputation beyond reputeDR DICK has a reputation beyond repute
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ferrous Head View Post
But this does all leave me with having to run the 1870 sprocket. Maybe no big deal. I hope.

Any idea what the difference is with the -70 and the -70A ?

I was going to presume the backspacing was the same at least and use one of them.

either will work for you.


i I don't have the documentation to back this up but I believe the difference between 70 and 70a sprocket was in materials and machine work. Dimensionally they are the same part.


the 70a may be sintered construction whereas the dash 70 was made from solid bar stock.
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 28th November 2021
Ferrous Head's Avatar
Ferrous Head Ferrous Head is offline
XL FORUM TEAM MEMBER
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Sunshine Coast
Posts: 7,583
Sportster/Buell Model: XLB, XLCH, Sporton
Sportster/Buell Year: 1962
Sportster/Buell Model #2: XLCH
Sportster/Buell Year #2: 1966
Other Motorcycle Model: XLCH (Another one)
Other Motorcycle Year: 1966
Reputation: 3148938
Ferrous Head has a reputation beyond reputeFerrous Head has a reputation beyond reputeFerrous Head has a reputation beyond reputeFerrous Head has a reputation beyond reputeFerrous Head has a reputation beyond reputeFerrous Head has a reputation beyond reputeFerrous Head has a reputation beyond reputeFerrous Head has a reputation beyond reputeFerrous Head has a reputation beyond reputeFerrous Head has a reputation beyond reputeFerrous Head has a reputation beyond repute
Default

Thanks Doc.

Makes it easier if I'm not looking for a one year only part.

I was only concerned because I know they went to the later clutch in 71 and the teeth on the clutch shell could have gotten moved again.

I think the letters after a number generally only indicate minor changes that still allow the part to be retrofitted, but don't know that's really true.

Getting close to finishing this thing only fabrication work left is the exhaust port stubs.

Seat and tank turned up today so getting excited all over again.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 28th November 2021
needspeed needspeed is offline
XL FORUM LIFE MEMBER
 
Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 1,610
Sportster/Buell Model: xlh
Sportster/Buell Year: 1974
Reputation: 1188422
needspeed has a reputation beyond reputeneedspeed has a reputation beyond reputeneedspeed has a reputation beyond reputeneedspeed has a reputation beyond reputeneedspeed has a reputation beyond reputeneedspeed has a reputation beyond reputeneedspeed has a reputation beyond reputeneedspeed has a reputation beyond reputeneedspeed has a reputation beyond reputeneedspeed has a reputation beyond reputeneedspeed has a reputation beyond repute
Default

I'm going to try and add some visuals to go with Dr. Dicks descriptions in post #13. If I get something wrong or create confusion please say so.

The first pic shows a typical set up for an XLCH ( kick start) 1957 through 1969. Non hump case. Single bearing clutch basket and solid motor sprocket #40288-58 with the least amount of offset. Note the position of the chain relative to the edge of the clutch drum. A tin primary fits with this.





This pic shows a typical set up for an XLH (electric start) 1967 through 1970. Hump case. Double bearing clutch drum with ring gear. Compensating sprocket 40273-67. Outboard support for chain adjuster. Note that the chain is now moved closer to the outer edge of the clutch drum.

This appears to be a 1970 XLH. Still a dry clutch 900 with no left side VIN.





This pic is a 1970 XLCH. Hump case. Double bearing clutch drum and no ring gear. Solid motor sprocket # 40235-70A. Used on XLCH's 1970 through 1976. Also on late '76 XLH.

This solid sprocket with nut can be used in place of the compensating sprocket on XLH's 1967 through early '76 when the comp sprocket was discontinued.


Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 13:02.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
XL Forum® - Linson Media LLC