09 Alarm / Siren / Regulator issues

[npaisnel]

Just been trying to fault find a non- charging issue on an 09 bike with an alarm and siren HDI bike in the U.K.

The bike was going flat, not starting ..Winter coming on, temps dropping, so he replaced battery.

Hmm.. no better... seems it is not charging. Voltmeter on the battery, startup, voltage not rising, in fact dropping to about 12.2 vollts.
So, new regulator .

I got him to check stator too
0.3ohm
29-30 volts AC ON tick over

Yet even new regulator and new battery... no voltage rise at the battery.

I suspected the wiring,

So I got him to connect old regulator to the stator, leave it hanging on side of bike, and ran Regulator output, via two jumper wires... to the old battery.

Start the bike... old battery via old reg... 14.5 volts...

Hmmm

So next I suggested he try checking current draw... put ammeter in-line where Maxi-Fuse goes.., start pulling fuses.. monitor current.. try and find if there is massive current drain.

Then while driving home... I have a thought...does this bike have a siren..

I messsge him....
Err yes it does he says...and it started chirping... or something else... need to check.. at same time as the battery issue cropped up.

So, I’ve never had a bike with an alarm or siren.. so I can’t help much...

But . Any know issues with these sirens /alarms that could cause such a voltage drop ?



guy just bought new battery

[IXL2Relax]

Unlikely to be the Alarm/Siren causing battery/alternator/regulator failure or even low readings... The siren actually has it's own rechargeable internal battery... The siren battery may not charge if the vehicle’s battery is less than 12.5 volts. This may cause it to chirp.

http://sportsterpedia.com/doku.php/t...tssm_and_siren


When you're having issues with the electrical system, use this Sportsterpedia section about
checking the battery cables, voltages and grounds - DO THIS BEFORE ANYTHING ELSE:
http://sportsterpedia.com/doku.php/t...place_to_start


Here's the Sportsterpedia section on the circuit breakers, relays & charging system:
http://sportsterpedia.com/doku.php/techtalk:evo:elec02

NOTE: The 2007-2009 model years have a significant history of corrosion and gunk collecting in the fuse/relay tray causing low-grade shorts and erratic electrical operation - This is especially problematic if the bike is left outside or operated in the rain. It's a good idea to check & thoroughly clean this tray at least every year (or 4 to 6 months if parked outside).

Check your Alternator/Stator: http://sportsterpedia.com/doku.php/t...lternator_test

Also, a corroded keyswitch can cause issues

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[npaisnel]

Originally Posted by IXL2Relax

Unlikely to be the Alarm/Siren causing battery/alternator/regulator failure or even low readings... The siren actually has it's own rechargeable internal battery... The siren battery may not charge if the vehicle’s battery is less than 12.5 volts. This may cause it to chirp.

Only just spotted this part of the post.

Yes, i realise the siren has its own battery and that it is a PP3 rechargeable...my thought initially was the charging circuit might have failed causing high current drain, that only occurs a while after the bike has started and the charging circuit kicks in, as I was under the impression that the charging circuit did not start until the main battery reached a certain voltage. but higher than the 12.5 you say .

David, does the siren still chirp ? Did you ever disconnect it ?



David..maybe post the picture of your original single phase burnt out stator too

[npaisnel]

Already sent him there and gone through the charging section to double check stator winding resistance, output voltage, checked earth cable, both ends and cleaned and re/seated all fuses multiple times.

Only thing that did make me wonder was the raw AC stator output voltage, of 30 VAC where the SP mentions 28.
SP also does not seem to give any indication of what the voltage will rise to when revs increased.
But, off the bike, with jumper wires from reg output, to off bike battery system works fine.

The answer I was hoping to hear was something like ‘ Oh yes, that sounds like the common problem where the ...... ‘

I cant get to the bike myself, been giving instruction via messenger.

[IXL2Relax]

Originally Posted by npaisnel

The answer I was hoping to hear was something like ‘ Oh yes, that sounds like the common problem where the ...... ‘

I suppose my 'sounds like' was the corrosion issue - Corrosion at the fuse block, at the keyswitch or corrosion at the Battery Negative Ground Stud &/or the Powertrain Ground Stud... Corrosion on a Ground Lug has OFTEN been the cause of electrical issues...





Notice the Per 1000 RPM list (the chart also mentions /1000rpm):


Of course, these are averages, with some higher & others lower - but you should see something close to the /1000rpm voltages.

Based on the information about charging the battery (off the bike), I doubt the chargining system is at fault. I would come back to it if all other checks fail to produce a problem cause.


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[david.hanaga]

Hi all

Just joined the forum on the recommendation of Neil, the original poster, the issue is with my bike.

I am at a loss to what the issue is, but essentially when I was out riding, the battery light and engine management light came on. When I got the bike home, the fault code that kept reappearing was PO562, which is a low voltage issue. Notice my cables to the battery were loose, so thought this may be the issue, but on tightening them, re-charging the battery, clearing the codes and then taking the bike back out, the same lights appeared.

On putting a meter on the battery, I was only getting 12.2v so thought the loose cables knackered the battery, so changed it. New battery has voltage in it, but when running the bike, drops to aeround 12.4v (approx.) so isnt the battery.

Check I have done that Neil had kindly helped me with are as follows.

1. Checked voltage from stator at the end of cable coming from stator. On idle getting around 32.3v and on acceleration (not sure what RPM) was getting around 56.7v which indicates to me it is fine.

2. Following above check assumed it would be voltage regulator, so changed this. Still had the same issue. So I rigged up the old regulator to stator cable and my old battery (which was not the problem) and getting 14.5v so the regulator must have been fine. New one is on the bike now, have not tested that but assume as it is new it is ok.

3. Based on the above, thought maybe cable from regulator to battery, so metered battery which off top of my head was 13.2v then again at the end of the cable which plugs to regulator output and getting 13.1v.

4. Have checked main earth from battery, appears to be ok with no obvious signs of breakages or wear. Checked the smaller earth, again appears to be ok. Checked where these earths go on the bike, no obvious signs of corrosion and appear clean.

5. Fuse board had some corrosion, so have removed all fuses, wire brushed them up, cleaned board itself with WD40 and reinstalled all fuses and relays, no difference, same issue with low voltage at battery when bike is running.

6. Thought maybe a possible issue with siren earth or something as siren stop chirping when ignition off, but do not think it is as the siren sounds when I move the bike without the fob near it.

To me, it seems that when the bike is running, there is a drain somewhere which is stopping the battery getting the relevant power, therefore causing the low voltage fault that I am getting.

With the above information, what is everyone's thoughts?

I am ok with mechanics, but a bit simple with electrics so do bear with me.

Any advice would be gratefully received. Neil has been a diamond thus far!

Thanks

David

[IXL2Relax]

Welcome to the XLForum, David...

Here's the simplest grounding test:

To do a proper ground test - all wiring as normal (nothing disconnected) - Keyswitch OFF:
Set your meter to the 20v DC Scale
Clamp the RED meter probe onto the Positive Battery Terminal
Take a voltage reading directly across the battery by touching the BLACK probe to the Negative Battery Post
This reading becomes your REFERENCE VOLTAGE (RV)

Now, move the BLACK meter probe to every GROUND POINT on the bike and compare the voltage reading to the RV.

All readings should be within .3v of the Reference Voltage.

Check everywhere that there should be a ground - engine (both sides), cylinder heads, regulator body, handlebars, etc.

---------------------

There is a history of grounding problems with that battery stud on the engine - See picture in previous post...

You really need to check the grounding at the Battery Cable Stud on the engine & at the Powertrain Ground Point.

If you need convincing of this issue, here's a thread (about a 2009 model) with over 300 posts - It took a while to discover the problem, but you need to verify this on your bike! http://xlforum.net/forums/showthread.php?t=1891463

You can start reading at Post#265 to see the way the problem was being tracked down...

There was corrosion inside the threads between the Stud & the Engine!


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[david.hanaga]

Originally Posted by IXL2Relax

Welcome to the XLForum, David...

Here's the simplest grounding test:

To do a proper ground test - all wiring as normal (nothing disconnected) - Keyswitch OFF:
Set your meter to the 20v DC Scale
Clamp the RED meter probe onto the Positive Battery Terminal
Take a voltage reading directly across the battery by touching the BLACK probe to the Negative Battery Post
This reading becomes your REFERENCE VOLTAGE (RV)

Now, move the BLACK meter probe to every GROUND POINT on the bike and compare the voltage reading to the RV.

All readings should be within .3v of the Reference Voltage.

Check everywhere that there should be a ground - engine (both sides), cylinder heads, regulator body, handlebars, etc.

---------------------

There is a history of grounding problems with that battery stud on the engine - See picture in previous post...

You really need to check the grounding at the Battery Cable Stud on the engine & at the Powertrain Ground Point.

If you need convincing of this issue, here's a thread (about a 2009 model) with over 300 posts - It took a while to discover the problem, but you need to verify this on your bike! http://xlforum.net/forums/showthread.php?t=1891463

You can start reading at Post#265 to see the way the problem was being tracked down...

There was corrosion inside the threads between the Stud & the Engine!


IXL _______ >>>> My Motorcycle Chronicles Are Here <<<<
For FREE Sportster Tech Info from the XLForum:
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Thank you so much for the post, much appreciated.

I have taken look at that thread, what a minefield, skipped to where you have said and noted some of the grounding issues.

In the meantime, I took a reference voltage which was 12.9v iirc, then checked voltage at battery to engine ground, lower ground under the frame and the third main ground and all get the same volts as the RV.

I have not removed any of the grounding bolts though.

[IXL2Relax]

Originally Posted by david.hanaga

I took a reference voltage which was 12.9v iirc, then checked voltage at battery to engine ground, lower ground under the frame and the third main ground and all get the same volts as the RV.

Next thing I would do is start the bike.

While it is running, take a meter reading - Black probe on the Battery Negative Post - RED probe on the Battery Positive Post. Record this battery charging voltage for a reference. (Reading#1)

While the bike is still running, remove the Maxifuse - The bike should remain running on the alternator/regulator...

Now, put your RED probe on the Maxifuse contacts - One contact is the voltage from the battery. The other contact is the voltage from the regulator (as it runs the bike). (Reading#2 & Reading#3)

Now, take another reading directly across the two battery terminals. (Reading#4)

RECORD THESE VOLTAGES

Replace the Maxifuse - shut down the bike.

Report back here with the readings...

This will tell you whether the alt/reg is producing for the bike without the battery & wiring - It will also show if the battery voltage at the fuse is the same as across the battery itself.


(I'll be out for most of the day & tomorrow) but will check back in on Saturday night)


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[david.hanaga]

Originally Posted by IXL2Relax

Next thing I would do is start the bike.

While it is running, take a meter reading - Black probe on the Battery Negative Post - RED probe on the Battery Positive Post. Record this battery charging voltage for a reference. (Reading#1)

While the bike is still running, remove the Maxifuse - The bike should remain running on the alternator/regulator...

Now, put your RED probe on the Maxifuse contacts - One contact is the voltage from the battery. The other contact is the voltage from the regulator (as it runs the bike). (Reading#2 & Reading#3)

Now, take another reading directly across the two battery terminals. (Reading#4)

RECORD THESE VOLTAGES

Replace the Maxifuse - shut down the bike.

Report back here with the readings...

This will tell you whether the alt/reg is producing for the bike without the battery & wiring - It will also show if the battery voltage at the fuse is the same as across the battery itself.


(I'll be out for most of the day & tomorrow) but will check back in on Saturday night)


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Every chance I am being stupid here, but....

With the bike running, I am getting 12.2v at the battery, when I remove the Maxifuse the bike stalls....