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  #1  
Old 17th April 2011
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Default givin kicker slip the boot part 2

your kicker slips when the rachet gear disengages from the ractet plate on back of cluch drum.

this is a quick look at the problems and fixes. all the parts shown are dry cluch. but applies to wet cluch too.

this boils down to gettin and maintaining engagement between these teeth.

gettin engagement:
point here is to eliminate anything that may hinder the sliding action of rachet gear so it may fully seat againt the rachet plate. every time.

1) if the mesh between rachet gear & large gear that drives it is binding or notchy, it will not allow free sliding, gears must mesh free.

2) the sleeve that the rachet gear bushing slides on must be uniform in diameter. no wear bands that may inhibit free slide.

so far this stuff is just your straight ahead common sense wrenchin. next thin isnt. its often overlooked. but super important.

3) the outside of the rachet gear bushing must pass thru the hole in rachet plate WHEN ASSEMBLED. CHECKIN BY STICKIN GEAR INSIDE OF PLATE ON THE BENCH IS NOT WHAT GONNA HAPPEN IN SERVICE.
compare the od of these two bushings:

the one on the left has a step cut into it. to provide clearance in plate bore. if your bushing shows drag marks in this area its haning up on plate bore. no good.

on the right is a stock rachet plate laid over a stock bushing it has minimal clearance. that one wont tolerate much misalignment before some rubbing starts.


now look at the rivet job on these two drums
crappy

there is a good chance that this one isnt centered on drum. if the bore isnt centered over outside of the bush, the bush will drag on the way in. inviting incomplete engagement

good



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part two maintaing engagement:

this is where the you NEED TO BE EVERY TIME-FULLY ENGAGED. you wont get here if the stuff above isnt given its due.


stayin engaged thru the entire kick stroke depends on what happens between these 2 parts while you kick. they need to stay together just like this.---until the cam plate on the big driving gear yanks the rachet gear out of engagement.

when that happens the contact faces must slide on each other until they disengage. just before they disengage all the kick force is passing thru a very small contact area between the 2. createing a little wear on both. this wear is cancerous if allowed to 'mature'.

study the next pic:
these are 2 basic unworn oem parts
the contact faces are machined to 90 degrees (straight up and down).
that makes the contact angle from 12 OCLOCK TO 6 OCLOCK .
resulting in direction of force shown by the yellow arrow.
so far so good.


remember this from above-this wear is cancerous if allowed to 'mature'.
as this wear progreses the contact angle starts to rotate counterclockwise
so now its more like 11:00/5:00. resulting in a direction of force that will DISENGAGE the two parts. the rachet gear now moves in the direction of the red arrow as you kick. the harder you kick the more disengagement you get. does that sound fimilair? i bet.

what you want is shown by the green arrow. a resulting force that 'screws' the two gears to titer 'bite' the harder you kick.

in order to get this green action YOU need to modify the contact angle to 1:00/7:00. by carefully grinding the contact surfaces on both gear and plate to acheve this 'anti disengagement action'.

part 3 next: the various different parts supplied over the years. how to identify what in your bike. and what combos work like.
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Old 17th April 2011
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Oh this is good stuff, thanks again Doc
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  #3  
Old 17th April 2011
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nice post... how would i go about getting the rivet job done correctly so everything is centered?
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Old 17th April 2011
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If the wear on the inter-locking parts is moving towards the 11-5 o'clock position...is grinding still an option? At what point would you call it a day on the original equipt and opt for new parts. Have you a pic of something that would be beyond salvage?

The reason I'm asking is I dug out my replacement 'kit' that I ordered through J&P(from V-Twin Manufacturing (made in taiwan)) and it turns out this kit is a universal fit type of deal with extra parts to adapt to any year of bike...I just realized this looking at it now.
I bought this, not because I have a problem, instead just to have on hand so I can still start my bike in 20yrs if no-one makes this kit then. The parts in this kit will need some machining to properly work on my bike...and to work with each other. It appears it would be easier to try and grind the original equipt back to a 1-7 o'clock position if there is enough metal left to still be strong enough for the forces applied. Hopefully saving someone the additional headaches of trying to modify this kit to fit.
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Old 17th April 2011
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Wonder why they didn't undercut those teeth so it wont kick out of engagement?

Great job showing this!!!

Chris
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Old 17th April 2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadowdog500 View Post
Wonder why they didn't undercut those teeth so it wont kick out of engagement?

Great job showing this!!!

Chris
Straight cutting gears is quick and cheap. (Harley ?) while undercutting is more time consuming and expensive.

I am glad someone took the time to do this post properly. Thanks on behalf of the guys who've never put in the time and effort.

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Old 18th April 2011
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Yes thanks Dick, you may save us some pain and suffering....... and medical bills im sure.
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Old 18th April 2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cc rider View Post
nice post... how would i go about getting the rivet job done correctly so everything is centered?
on 71 up its pretty simple. but you need a lathe. make this:
use by puting thru plate and bearing THEN put rivets in. there are big variations in plate bores. what works for one bike may not on a different one.

57-70 is the same idea. but if you are running a sealed dry cluch your messing with sealing integrity. i will go into this deeper as i add to the main post

for some more info:
http://xlforum.net/forums/s...9&postcount=15

Last edited by DR DICK; 18th April 2011 at 03:25.. Reason: added link
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Old 18th April 2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scottfisher View Post
If the wear on the inter-locking parts is moving towards the 11-5 o'clock position...is grinding still an option? At what point would you call it a day on the original equipt and opt for new parts. Have you a pic of something that would be beyond salvage?

i dont think that parts can wear enuff to be beyound salvage. because the amount of wear that can be achieved before the kicker is totaly unable to stay engaged is not that great

The reason I'm asking is I dug out my replacement 'kit' that I ordered through J&P(from V-Twin Manufacturing (made in taiwan)) and it turns out this kit is a universal fit type of deal with extra parts to adapt to any year of bike...I just realized this looking at it now.
I bought this, not because I have a problem, instead just to have on hand so I can still start my bike in 20yrs if no-one makes this kit then. The parts in this kit will need some machining to properly work on my bike...and to work with each other. It appears it would be easier to try and grind the original equipt back to a 1-7 o'clock position if there is enough metal left to still be strong enough for the forces applied. Hopefully saving someone the additional headaches of trying to modify this kit to fit.
im gonna go in to the aftermarket issues in the next installment. be forewarned its not pretty.
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Old 18th April 2011
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Too cool man, thanks for all the effort and time. I will definitely be working on mine next winter.
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