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  #171  
Old 31st March 2021
Tomcatt Tomcatt is offline
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It is serious and what matters IS the height of the scavenge and feed sections, along with their diameters. HD clearly used all the space available in the existing casting to increase scavenging, even thinning the separator plate and making both sections the larger OD. The pump discussion was about capacity changes in the '07 pump.

I see nothing in this thread or what you linked to in Sportsterpedia that shows where your "18 thou" comes from or why it matters.

Edit: I found your 18 thou which is based on an external dimension (yes, probably do to a slight difference in the new cover, maybe just thicker bolt bosses) and not what the OP appears to have been referencing. Why it matters is still up for debate. You've stated the cover has a different casting #.

As I previously said it appears HD got as much scavenge capacity as they could in the existing pump body. Welcome to the 21st Century.
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Last edited by Tomcatt; 31st March 2021 at 23:33..
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  #172  
Old 2nd April 2021
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Still waiting for my 883 to 1200 cylinders to come back from the UK...I am opening the primary case and pulling both the main drive sprocket and the clutch, followed by the shifter mechanism and finally the transmission assembly.

Once the primary cover is off, is a good idea to keep the screws (they have different lengths) on a cardboard piece. In order to release those strongly tightened nuts, you'll need a breaker bar (mine is a 23-1/2" / 60 cm long), a standard 1-3/16" socket (or a metric 30 mm) for the left handed clutch nut; a deep standard 1-1/8" socket for the motor sprocket nut and also a snap ring pliers for releasing the clutch adjusting assembly. Don't forget to block the primary chain assembly using an aluminum (softer than the teeth steel) thick plate inserted between motor and clutch sprockets. Dimensions in the pic below.




What I'm looking for? Simple: the source of all that steel metal fuzz trapped by the drain plug magnet, I found it in the last oil change. Yes, it scares at first look, but there are no chips or filings, just metal fuss.



Possible culprits:
  1. Primary chain
  2. Clutch assembly
  3. Shifter shaft mechanism
  4. Transmission assembly

1.- Primary chain and adjuster
I don't know you but... I've never been happy with the FSM procedure for adjusting the primary chain. - "It's easy, you only have to measure its free play in the tightest point" -

"Tightest point"?? There is something I never could understand: Why the chain would have a spot tighter that the others??? or does this mean the chain has more tension depending on the motor sprocket angle position? -- PLEASE SOMEONE COULD SHED A LIGHT ON THIS -- (I suspect it may be related to the pistons and valve springs force... Anyway, didn't it be easier to just say: measure it when front piston is at TDC, for instance?).

Another difficult task is to measure the chain free play; how to measure that distance through a small case window and separated half an inch from that chain (did you hear about the parallax error?)

That's reason why the "whining method" is so successful here in the XL Forum (sorry I don't remember the OP name, somebody explained he adjusted the primary chain while the motor was idling...till you hear a whine; and lot of people here loved the method).

All this came up while I was about to inspect the chain and adjuster to look for improper wear or so, but I don't find anything out of place, so let's keep on searching.

2.- Clutch assembly
I inspected the outside of the clutch shell and the starter ring gear. Only noticed several worn teeth from engaging with the electric starter pinion. Not sure I would have to worry about it



Worn teeth and some of the six rivets are scrached (more on the rivets ahead):


The motor sprocket and the alternator rotor seem to be ok; I washed them and cleaned in solvent, now look pretty good.




Dissassembled the clutch and inspected everything inside. Both hub and shell are in good shape, no scratches or bent areas.



It's important to verify the big bearing that is holding both shell and hub together runs freely without ugly noises/vibrations. Do test to hold the hub in hand then rotate the shell and viceversa.



Took the fiber and steel plates off the clutch and clean them in solvent. The fiber ones just were cleaned with a wet rag. I ended by rubbing them with a scoth-brite piece to clean the glaze.



This is a Barnett kevlar clutch (without that hated factory double spring plate) and they don't provide any specs to be checked, so I only can verify all the plates are perfectly plain by laying them on a glass table before I soak the fiber ones in oil and assembly all again following the fabricator indications. Do observe the steel plates has a sharp face and a slightly rounded one; try to lay them all with the same orientation, up or down sided.



3.- Shifter shaft mechanism:
Well, at last problems arise! and it is an old chap! coming back again (The first time was detected in time, before serious damages).

This pic shows a normal "detent plate" that is conected both to the shifter fork drum and to the shifter pawl. This is supposed to be stuck to the pawl, rotating as you change the gears.



In front of it, at a short distance, the giant and heavy clutch sprocket is rotating at full speed. Could you imagine what would happen if that "rose shape" plate separate a bit from the pawl...? Just look at next pics below. By the way, remember that starter ring gear back side? yes, the rivets! they also were eaten after scrapping against the shifter detent plate. Maybe the shifter plate was scrapped too as per the pics below, but I'm not quite sure since that plate hasn't a nice surface finish due to several welded studs and so.





This is my detent plate after being heavily scrapped by the clutch starter ring gear and on the other pic, the detent plate "C" clip that was about to break and produce a massive mess inside the primary case
But why that rose plate got closer to the big clutch gear...? the one million dollar query! Well, that detent plate lays over 4 pins protruding out from the shifter drum; as you turn the rose, the drums rotates too and change the gears. Problem is those xxxxing pins are simply (and lightly) press fitted inside the drum's top holes, and with the use and the wide temperature variations in the transmission assembly, they sometimes moves out of the hole, creating an unstable base for the rose plate. Below some pics showing my drum pins as they were when openned the case watch out their different lengths!




Can you imagine how that rose plate can relay over such a fakir bed? Yes, the answer is: leaning at an angle as far as the clip is able to hold it; the plate now is not already orthogonal to its axle, it is inclined and interferes with the big clutch gear producing such a round scrap marks and sending plenty of metal shavings/filings/fuss all around. Obviously next step is ...the clip breaks and the detent plate play a tennis match with the clutch gear till it
jump out of the drum axle and ...

Solutions? I'm sure there is bibliography somewhere but ...I simply measure parts well, decide a final acceptable length for the drum pins, red loctite the holes and use 5 mm drift pin and a small hammer to insert the pins at an appropiate depth. For me about 8 mm is the perfect outer length for the pins. See in the picture how the rose plate is flush with its axle now. This ensure a nice four leg bed for the detent plate. Check it before inserting the clip, by laying the plate firmly and turning on both sides for testing the gears change ok.




4.- Transmission assembly
Now that I found a culprit for all the metal fuss...I will inspect the tranny in a more relaxed manner
Simply remove those 5 big bolts and pull the case back to you.



Checked all the gears, forks, fork dogs, the 2 bearings without finding improper wear or scratches, rounded corners (dogs), etc... the five gears change smoothly. I will clean with solvent in spray everything but the bearings in order to get rid of all the remaining fuss.





This pin at the end of the shifter drum is the neutral mechanical sensor, whenever it push the steel ball in the bottom of the tranny case then the neutral green indicator lights on.




Did you see that EXTRANGE THING at the bottom corner over the fith gear...? funny! I had to visit my FSM...to find it is the speedometer sensor (a black plastic cylinder piece) that is ALMOST FULLY COVERED WITH METAL FUSS!! Maybe it has a magnet effect that explains the thing.

There is another thing that catched my attention and still haven't got an explanation: the white big mark on the right of the steel ball. Maybe that neutral metal pin is rubbing that area when in 2nd gear...??
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  #173  
Old 2nd April 2021
Turbo Sporty 48 Turbo Sporty 48 is offline
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Default Impressive, In a Lot of Ways

Wow Man, you have truly seen the light!
Your transformation into a Sporty Killer Builder is a sight to behold.
Love the attention to detail, analytical skills honed to the max and the pictures, superb.
Thanks for showing us how to do a build...
Setting a great example.
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  #174  
Old 2nd April 2021
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While you have the transmission out, see this link in the Sportsterpedia.
http://sportsterpedia.com/doku.php/t...:ref:svcproc11

There are some wear issues you can check while you are in there.
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Reference the XLFORUM'S Sportsterpedia
for additional technical information & advice

Last edited by Hippysmack; 26th August 2021 at 07:54.. Reason: Moved page, added info in this thread, changed link
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  #175  
Old 3rd April 2021
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Turbo Sporty 48 View Post
Wow Man, you have truly seen the light!
Your transformation into a Sporty Killer Builder is a sight to behold.
Love the attention to detail, analytical skills honed to the max and the pictures, superb.
Thanks for showing us how to do a build...
Setting a great example.
Thanks so much for your kind words! I do enjoy sharing and also get much useful feed back that add to the knoledge table

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hippysmack View Post
While you have the transmission out, see this link in the Sportsterpedia.
http://sportsterpedia.com/doku.php/t...ref:svcproc11a

There are some wear issues you can check while you are in there.
Hippysmack, I went through the whole document with pleasure and lernt several things to complete my tranny inspection task, thanks!
One conclussion I came on is the shifter mechanism is a very special mechanical assembly; HD designers weren't looking for accurate movements parts, more on the opposite, they have ample tolerances and mechanical designs that provide limited 3D free movements. Will put a couple examples:
  • The shifter pawl has 5 mm side movement at the tip! due to the spacer used in the joint with the shifter plate. This has one perfect plane side and a rounded one on the other that allows the pawl to freely move sideways.



  • The more I study that shifter assembly, the more I get the sensation they @ the MoCo knew the shifter drum xxxxing PINS will be slowly going out of their holes over time, pushing the rose plate sideways and the only way of dealing with such variable situations was fixing it with a flexible steel "C" ring (instead of a washer and nut). It would surprise you to know how many Sportsters are there NOW running with the rose detent plate skewed by 15º or more, praying for been found out before the tsunami of damages arrives
This assembly flexibility also could explain why there were hard working people trying to find a more accurate method for adjusting the shifter pawl, thinking a priori, the FSM's wasn't this accurate, for finally getting to the conclusion of it being perfect for the bike (surely they @ HD did pass through all this measuring difficulties when they came up with this design).
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  #176  
Old 3rd April 2021
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I've branched out into discovering specs for the different circlips etc.
The depth of the cut in the shaft end to receive that flexible little POS is actually cut specifically for THAT clip.
It's difficult to find another clip (and spacer required in place of the original) for that shaft.
It does seem like that was designed for side load changes.

edit:
To add to that, the main feature in the specs for that certain clip is to handle side loading.

http://sportsterpedia.com/doku.php/t...k:ref:tools035

Last edited by Hippysmack; 3rd April 2021 at 19:44..
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  #177  
Old 3rd April 2021
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Amazing info there, as always! I always have problems for buying circlips locally; those tables will help. Thanks Hippysmack.

Making profit of getting the tranny and clutch in hand, I took some measurements for those interested in the possibility of replacing the infamous detent plate "C" clip with a screw (obviously after threading a drilled hole in the middle of the detent plate axle).

Find info-pics below (in the first picture the clutch gear is not totally sat in place).






By the way, anybody knows if the shifter drum (moving) PINS issue has been addressed in new sportys?
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  #178  
Old 3rd April 2021
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Excellent info.
I've thought about that. I have a few questions though.
How much is the actual side load?
Does the side load amount depend on inertia alone?
How much does the shifter shaft position and variable force from affect side load?
How big a screw head can handle how much side load?

Basically, can the side load break the screw head off?
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  #179  
Old 4th April 2021
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Well, I suppose Hippysmack talking about the side load applied on the detent plate retainning ring, that is responsible for its breaking into pieces with subsequent aftermath.

Shifter detent plate's RETAINING RING HD OEM PART #11019


The detent plate seems to have 2 core missions:
  1. Provide a stop to the shifter mechanism so that it only change one gear at a time; its flower shape with a recess for the "neutral gear" do the job, allowing a small bearing to sit in between the flower petals.
  2. Remain stuck to the drum pins; to aim this the plate has 4 recesses in the back side to engage the drum pins and rotate together. For this to work, the plate should be orthogonal to its axle (like in the design below) OR if it is not possible (like in HD design that allows the plate to skew) install a special clip that is permanently pushing the plate against the pins.


The HD design would have successed if the pins would have stayed in place BUT THEY WOULDN'T! On the contrary, they randomly move out of their holes and push/skew the detent plate until its clip finally cannot support that uneven forces and crack and break into pieces releasing the plate to be smashed by a giant gear that is rotating at full speed just 1/2" in front of it.

Best solution:
Imagine for a moment that the shifter drum pins are welded; then no side forces against the plate; the shifter pawl moves up/down dragging the drum pins and rotating the detent plate at a time. The stock clip fix the plate in place (or a simple snap ring in my design). Easy!

A more realistic approach:
Provided the drum pins will be moving in & out forever , replacing that clip with a washer & nut could stand for a definitive solution? I think so. Let's talk about what moves to pins out of their holes! By looking at the pins...



The pin holes are simple plain cylindrical holes. The pins are cylindrical too and have 3 grooves paralell to its axle and evenly spread along the half surface that goes inside the hole. At the end of each groove there is a small amount of metal protruding; this seems to be what holds the pin inside the hole. The half pin that remains out of the hole is plain and do go in/out the hole easily.

Once the pins are inside the holes, what push them to go out? this is another million dollar query! I suppose the answer is the action of 3 factors:
  1. Different thermal expansion rate of the pins and drum metals.
  2. Engine vibrations.
  3. The "massage" provided by the pawl forks pushing the pins up and down (although I honestly don't see how such transverse force applied to the pins could contribute to extract them out; HD engineers may had thought the same ).
Endline:
Provided the forces pushing the pins out couldn't be much big, I'm quite sure that the washer & nut solution would be a definitive solution meeting the 2 main tasks:
  • Engage the pins perfectly by remaining orthogonal to the drums axle.
  • Prevent the pins go out of the holes.
I'd even say more: plain pins, without the protruding elements, would work better. They could move freely inside their holes removing any axial force. Promise I will implement this solution the next time my xxxing pins go out!

EDIT:
According to the american fabricator www.rotorclip.com, its fitting product EL-31 shaft ring support a side force of 60 lbs (27.2 kg) until been flatten. It also provides with a formula for the final drum pin length (min and max).
Technical specifications in this link https://www.rotorclip.com/cat_pdfs/el.pdf
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  #180  
Old 4th April 2021
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Does anyone have a Baker shift drum that we could look at? I believe they addressed the circlip issue but not sure what they did. I sure wish they would start to make the shift drum again.
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