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  #301  
Old 23rd May 2007
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NRHS carries the 30 tooth sprockets.
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  #302  
Old 23rd May 2007
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what is a stock on an 883 and a 1200 (04-up)

next does anyone have a picture of the top of the heads (04-up) looking for the drains....
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  #303  
Old 23rd May 2007
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04s and up have a lower gears inside the primary plus a 28 tooth on the secondary whereas a 1200 has a 29. The secondary is not that big of a deal but I believe the primary gearing is something like 17% lowewr than the 1200s. that is a lot. To compensate I am thinking at least a 30 tooth on the seconadry is needed for someone who drives on the highways a lot. I just do not like seeing bikes that are running 250 degree oil temps at the bag. That is way too high.

But if the majority of your miles is done at 70 mph or less I do not think you have anything to worry about.
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  #304  
Old 23rd May 2007
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Default Drainage Test

Performed the head drainage test today. I reinstalled the old seals just to get an idea of the level the oil would need to get to if the seals became submerged.

I put the head back on the bike with it on the jack so everything would be level and poured oil into the head to watch it drain and see if the seal became submerged.

Conclusion: the seals shouldn't become submerged, at least that's my opinion from watching how fast the head drained. There will be oil around the spring seats at all times and I plan on testing whether or not any oil can get past the guides on the outside...... I highly doubt it but might as well look anyway while I have the chance.

I can't be 100% certain on this without looking at it with the bike running, but that's beyond my capabilities at the moment. As the springs and valves only receive splash oiling and I poured oil into the head from the bottle and watched it drain rather quickly I'm 95% sure of my conclusion.

The head ready for testing



Oil poured in and draining



Oil level at the intake valve when it starts to drain to the exhaust side



Oil level at the exhaust valve when draining stops, the oil you see is held there by the spring seat. At no time did the level become so great as to submerge the exhaust valve seal.



This is as high as the level got at the intake valve as I squirted oil into it with a turkey baster. I would think that is a higher volume of oil than it normally sees from the splash oiling.



This is the drain in the exhaust pocket. You might be able to dress up the entrance with a burr to enhance flow to the drain, but I don't think it would be necessary as it drains really well from what I could see and the spring seat above it might negate any advantage you got from doing so.



Next up for me is to blast everything clean with walnut shells, and check for leakage past the outside of the guides, depending on the results I will reassemble the motor with the new (old style) seals and see how it goes.

Back soon, Chris
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  #305  
Old 23rd May 2007
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CJ - That's good info. I guess what we would really need to know is the "oil flow rate" of the engine when at higher RPM's to really validate it (but I agree your probably dumping more in than the engine could push up there). In other words, if the engine is able to get a quart of oil into the rockers every 10 seconds, 30 seconds, 1 minutes or whatever, then try to dump that much oil in at one time and see how quickly it drains in that time period. Does that make sense?

Is there a reasonable way to figure out how much oil is getting up there? I guess if you knew the oil pressure and the circumference of the inlet then you could do calculations (the math would probably be beyond me, but from my firefighting days, I believe there's relatively easy calculations for flow through a known size hose at a given pressure). That brings up a point, does anyone know what oil pressures these bikes see at various RPM's?

Like I said I like the test your doing, just wondering if we can make it more scientific and less subjective?
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  #306  
Old 23rd May 2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drcstang View Post
That brings up a point, does anyone know what oil pressures these bikes see at various RPM's?
I don't have my manaul in front of me but if I recall

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  #307  
Old 23rd May 2007
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If someone can figure out how much goes up I'll dump it in and time the drain.

I pumped oil into the intake pocket with a turkey baster and am positive that was more flow than you would see coming from the port in the rocker arm where the springs and valves get their oil from, I'll try to get a pic of the orifice for you.

You are correct it could be more accurate with flow numbers, all I really wanted to see was whether the oil could get high enough to submerge the seal before it went to the drain on the exhaust side and if it would pool up enough to submerge the exhaust side.....it doesn't, and my drains aren't plugged which was another concern as I used the Yamabond for a bottom gasket on my cylinders.

I'm pretty happy with the results as it answered several questions for me, but if anyone can come up with the flow rate and volume I'll gladly try it for you guys.

Chris
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  #308  
Old 23rd May 2007
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Another consideration is that you probably used cold oil. I wonder how hot oil would flow. With 20w-50 in theory doesn't it flow like a 20 weight oil when cold and then a 50 weight oil when hot? I am not sure what difference that would make (probably not much if any), but it is another factor to consider.
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  #309  
Old 23rd May 2007
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The one unknown we can't figure out is when the engine is running at high speed is there any kind of presure being created that might slow down the drainage from the top? I do not know the answer to that.
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  #310  
Old 23rd May 2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cjburr View Post
If someone can figure out how much goes up I'll dump it in and time the drain.

I pumped oil into the intake pocket with a turkey baster and am positive that was more flow than you would see coming from the port in the rocker arm where the springs and valves get their oil from, I'll try to get a pic of the orifice for you.

You are correct it could be more accurate with flow numbers, all I really wanted to see was whether the oil could get high enough to submerge the seal before it went to the drain on the exhaust side and if it would pool up enough to submerge the exhaust side.....it doesn't, and my drains aren't plugged which was another concern as I used the Yamabond for a bottom gasket on my cylinders.

I'm pretty happy with the results as it answered several questions for me, but if anyone can come up with the flow rate and volume I'll gladly try it for you guys.

Chris
We have a program here at work we use to caculate such things but there are a lot of variables, pressure, hole size and length, as well as the properties of the fluid. Even though the oil feed to the top end is pressureized and the return is gravity feed the drain for the top end is atleast 2-3 time larger than the hole in the pushrods, I can't see the oil not being able to drain fast enough if every is ass right

Side note I was looking at my bike last night with the top end removed and the cam cover off. The drain comes down through the cyl's and into the left side of the case transfers over to the right side case half and then into the camcase compartment it looks to me like there are 2 maybe three 90° turns and if the goop H-D use to seal the case halfs cloged the transfer ports between the two halfs I could maybe see a drain problem.

I looked on goodson page and they do make different O.D. sizes for the guides and the even put an o-ring at the top to prevent oil passing by, I could see a problem here if the machineist did do his job correctly.
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