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View Full Version : Thunderheader, Supertrapp, or Bassani?


xl1200r
28th December 2004, 19:34
Some of you are familiar with my situation with the exhasut on my bike. In short, I'm getting a deal by letting my dealer try out the new Thunderheader on my 2004 XL1200R. If I end up not liking the pipe, they'll let me try another one. Not wanting to press my luck, I should only choose one if I don't like the Thunderheader. I can't decide between the Supertrapp 2:1, or Bassani's 2:1. I don't know much about the Bassani. I like the tunability of the supertrapp, but I also like the anto-intake measures taken by the thunderheader. I will be able to compare Dyno Runs on both pipes, so I just need help deciding between the Supertrapp and the Bassani for comparison. Thanks.

This is what the Supertrapp (top) and Bassani (bottom) pipes look like:
http://xlforum.net/photopost/showphoto.php?photo=311

http://xlforum.net/photopost/showphoto.php?photo=312

twinsporty
28th December 2004, 19:41
You know you have just opened up the proverbial can of worms :D .

I like the looks of the bassani but the tunability of the Supertrapp. I have only heard good things about the thunderheader so go for what you like. Sorry not much help.

By the way I am origianlly from up in you neck of the woods care to tell which dealer (Spitzies, Brunswick, Vans or McDermott is doing the pipes (my guess is Dean at Spitzies)

xl1200r
28th December 2004, 19:47
You know you have just opened up the proverbial can of worms .

Wow...you nailed that one. I knew this would be a contraversial topic. I too have not heard anything bad about the Thunderheader, but at the same time I would like to have smoething new and different, but still a good looker and performer. I'm not ruling the Thunderheader out, I just want to compare it with something else.

I go to Brunswick. I didn't like spitzies much...I'm only 21, and feel a little looked down on over there. Sort of odd being that my dad knows the owners. I've had good luck with Brunswick though.

twinsporty
28th December 2004, 19:54
Hey xl1200r I see you are a Rensselaer stude. What is your major. I'm an alum also (BS in Mech Eng PhD in Materials)

xl1200r
28th December 2004, 19:57
Ahh...all you engineering types...haha

I'm at the Lally school...well, almost. Just got accepted. Did a year and a half at HVCC and I start at RPI in Jan. Management Technology.

rottenralph
28th December 2004, 20:02
I had a supertrapp 2 into 1 brushed stainless and it looked great and sounded really unique. It was like riding the bike with the brakes on compared to the thunderheader. I used 8 to 40 discs with two disc incriments to try and get the same power as my TH but never got it. Supertrapp also does not fit with my PM forward controls because of the way the front pipe sweeps back. I liked the sound but performance never equaled the Thunderheader. Don't know anything about the Bassani. Tunability is great if it works but in my case I never was able to get the same power measured by the height of the wheelies in first and second. Seat of the pants dyno is the only one I used and its accuracy is questionable. I have a picture of the endcap poking out on the black and white pic in my gallery. I also tried it with a billet open cap and with and without fiberglass.

twinsporty
28th December 2004, 20:03
Well I won't say anything bad about Lally (you should meet the hockey team though). I have heard good things about Brunswick (especially after they moved out of that pit they used to be in) I just didn't know they had a dyno. Keep us posted on the progress and the numbers you get.

maddog
28th December 2004, 22:23
A while back (not sure when),SPEEDVISION did a HD Night Train Project, and Mounted and dyno'd over 15 sets of pipes.

BASSANI PRO STREET
HP-101 TQ-97

THUNDERHEADER
HP-99.2 TQ-100.7

SUPERTRAP (with 20 discs)
HP-96.5 TQ-97.9

The Bassani shows 1.8 more HP, But the Thunderheader
shows 3.7 lbsft more torque...And Harley's are all about the torque,IMHO.

Geek
29th December 2004, 02:46
Maddog,

Do you have a link to the speedvision page that had all the results? Just wondering since I would like to check out some of the other pipes.

I like the look of the supertrap much better than the other 2. But, I also want good performance so I am in a little dillema. I really want the Hard Krome exhaust but I'm not sure if it will be available by the time I am ready to buy.

marco883
29th December 2004, 04:33
Check this out http://www.sportster.org/tech/exhaust-gc/

Geek
29th December 2004, 05:06
Marco883,

What pipe is on yours?

marco883
29th December 2004, 05:48
Vance & Hines Pro-Pipes

Geek
29th December 2004, 05:52
That's what I thought they looked like but I don't thnk they make them for 04's yet. :cry1

marco883
29th December 2004, 06:07
I've tried the HD 2 into 1, but the Pro-Pipes are larger in diameter, 2.5" at the collector. Really breathes well now. Hope they make them for Rubby's soon

maddog
29th December 2004, 13:46
Maddog,

Do you have a link to the speedvision page that had all the results? Just wondering since I would like to check out some of the other pipes.

I like the look of the supertrap much better than the other 2. But, I also want good performance so I am in a little dillema. I really want the Hard Krome exhaust but I'm not sure if it will be available by the time I am ready to buy.


Geek...I have the pages, but there's no addr. on them. I'm computer handicapped (but I'm learning). In a little while I'll try to scan and upload them. Then I'll drop back in here with a link to my file.

twinsporty
29th December 2004, 13:57
Here is the link to the exhaust shoot out that Speed channel (American Thunder) did on a night train link (http://www.speedtv.com/articles/moto/motoconsumer/659/) (But it isn't the same as Maddog had)

maddog
29th December 2004, 15:37
Here is the link to the exhaust shoot out that Speed channel (American Thunder) did on a night train link (http://www.speedtv.com/articles/moto/motoconsumer/659/) (But it isn't the same as Maddog had)

Right t-sporty..My pages have 19 tests but the link only shows 10.

xl1200r
29th December 2004, 17:27
Just a note on the Supertrapp...the pipe for the '04 bikes (as I understand it) has a slightly different bend than the previous ones. I also find it interesting that the 2:1 system have a tourque dip in the low rev range...I thought that's where these pipes were supposed to shine??? I also don't care much for the super-short look of the Pro-Streets.

maddog
29th December 2004, 18:26
Just a note on the Supertrapp...the pipe for the '04 bikes (as I understand it) has a slightly different bend than the previous ones. I also find it interesting that the 2:1 system have a tourque dip in the low rev range...I thought that's where these pipes were supposed to shine??? I also don't care much for the super-short look of the Pro-Streets.


The dip is usually very minor, like 2 to 2,5k. What shines is the anti-reversion character of the design. It means they pull MUCH stronger thru their range due to better cylinder fill. Straight pipes dip from 2.5 to 5k typically.

twinsporty
29th December 2004, 19:03
Hey Xl1200r,

In case you didn't know our esteemed Mr. Crim has done an exaust comparison (both HP and TQ) on the other great sporster site. Here is the link (http://www.sportster.org/tech/exhaust-gc/). It is a couple of years old but still it lets you see various pipes.

xl1200r
29th December 2004, 19:15
I took a look at that, but unfortunatly it's of little use. The supertrapp he tested sounded cobbed together, and in any way, the were older model pipes on older model bikes. I'm sure with the new head design and cam profiles in the '04s that the number will be different. They picked up my bike yesterday morning, so I should be getting a call soon. I'll be sure to let you all know what numbers that Thunderheader does. it should be interesting as nothing else will be changed, just the exhaust (and the spporpriate carb work).

I think I will try the Supertrapp next. After reading the Bassani site, it doesn't look as if there's much tech in that pipe. Just a "true reverse cone" and a spiral baffle. The thunderheader and the Supertrapp both have the same or simliar features, plus the tuning fo the supertrapp and the anti-intake of the thunderheader.

twinsporty
29th December 2004, 19:17
While the numbers will be differnt the trends will stay the same. That is the 2-1 will have a dip in the 2000-2500 rpm range. Not that I'm knocking them it is just a fact.

xl1200r
29th December 2004, 19:23
How big is this dip? Are talking like a 2-3 lbs loss, or like a 10 lbs loss???

twinsporty
29th December 2004, 19:30
Yeah it is usually only about 2-5 lbs-ft but if you look at the Supertrapp 2-2 pipes thay start at ~60 and are a nice steady curve compared to the 2-1. If only these pipes would work and allow me to bring the wife along. Oh well what to do ;)

xl1200r
29th December 2004, 19:34
I guess I just have to rev it higher...lol

twinsporty
29th December 2004, 19:37
Thats the ticket ride it like you stole it and don't look back.

xl1200r
31st December 2004, 19:41
So the dealer got all done dynotuning the Thunderheader and the Supertrapp system will be in next week. To be honest, I'm fairly disappointed.

In terms of horsepower, the thunderheader didn't make anymore than the SEII's that were on it. They were able to gain about 5hp and the top end when they removed the aircleaner. Tourque was as predicticted. It did a little better about 3500rpm, but had lower numbers below 3500rpm (again, without the aircleaner). The pipe does look and sound good (the dealer seems to think it's louder than my SEII's, but I don't think it is...just had a deeper tone to it), but the power gains were minimal.

Hopefully the Supertrapp will at least have a better looking power curve even if the numbers aren't a huge improvent. I'm a little worried about sound on the Supertrapp, so I may have to go with an open-end endcap to get the volume out of it.

Clearly, my bottleneck is my aircleaner. See my thread about aircleaners to voice any opinions. Thanks.

rottenralph
31st December 2004, 23:01
You can wish for whatever you want but in the end your eye and ear will decide on the pipe. I have had both the theader and the supertrapp on my bike. The bottom line is it pulls great power on wheelies with the theader and does not do it with the supertrapp. I loved the look of the supertrapp but the wheelies were better than the look. Can't say that I'm that suprised about the dyno because the se's have alwys been considered the next best thing. 5 h.p is a good gain over a good pipe. That could be the difference between winning and losing.
And to your point on the end cap. Mine was tuned with 20 to 40 discs in two disc intervals to try and get the same power as the TH. I also had a billet endcap that was open. after 30 discs it sounded the same. So don't worry. It will be plenty loud just different to other pipes. I loved the sound but it did not work with fwd controls and the power was more important than the look.
One last thing. When I go full throttle I never feel the dip in torque because I am going up so fast only a dyno would feel it.

xl1200r
31st December 2004, 23:25
I understand what you mean about not feeling the dip. The fact is, if I'm really looking for a ton of power, I'll rev it higher anyways. We'll see how the Supertrapp does...I'm pretty exited about the whole thing really. I'm going to get one or the other, so if the power between the two is negligible, then I will have to go on looks and sound. The theader is a good looking pipe, as is the Supertrapp. I just hope you're right about the sound of the supertrapp. I know they are a quieter pipe.

rottenralph
1st January 2005, 01:39
They are not nec. quieter just different. With 12 discs it sounds best but does not run best. It sounds faster than the theader if that makes any sense. I liked the muffled ducastiish sound

Turbota
1st January 2005, 03:06
Two problems with these pipes:

There are made from very expensive titanium, and there only avail in Japan.

Now, if someone would only make a duplicate copy of these from brushed 301 stainless, I think they would sell like crazy for the 04-05 bikes. Personally, I like the looks better than anything avail to us right now ... Just my opinion.

Very nice set indeed ....

http://www.trampcycle.com/colum/c031126/images/02.jpg

NYSPORTY
1st January 2005, 03:23
I had the thunderheader on my bike it was very good runs very well but the sound was just not there so if you don't care about that its great i have one if you want to buy at discount

xl1200r
1st January 2005, 16:48
I know what your saying about sounding faster, and that can be very important. They the bike do the talking...haha. I knew the SEII's where a good muffler, but I just figured that I would be able to make much better numbers with a 2:1 system and the headpipes, etc. I never realized that what I had was THAT good. Like I said before, I'm looking into a new a/c now as well. I was going to do one anyways, but now I see that I need to. I was going to do a pro-series hypercharger, but I'm also considering a Forcewinder. If anyone is interested, NHRS now sells a kit that uses your stock cover but lets you run a 2" or a 3" wide filter. A little overpriced to me at $200, but it's out there.

SportsterSpive
2nd January 2005, 00:38
I have had the V&H Straightshots, Bassani Pro Street 2-2s, A prototype Bassani 2-1, and now the Bassani Production 2-1. I think the Bassani's have a better sound, the V&Hs are very glassy/barky sounding. My favorite sound (and the best performance) is from the 2-1 I have now. I like the tunability of the Supertrap, but I think the Bassani has more character and style with it's kick up, which also improves clearance. I know the guys at Bassani personally, and they make an awesome product. Hope this helps.

Stock
http://www.offroadrangers.com/sean/bike/sporty640.jpg

V&H Straightshots
http://www.offroadrangers.com/sean/bike/stage1-1web.jpg

Bassani Pro Streets 2-2
http://www.offroadrangers.com/sean/bike/nrhs1250kit.jpg

Bassani 2-1 Prototype
http://www.offroadrangers.com/sean/bike/bikelabordaymed.jpg

Bassani Road Rage 2-1 (production)
http://www.offroadrangers.com/sean/bike/bassbike2med.jpg

--Sean

ed_in_az
2nd January 2005, 01:28
Are the Bassani Pro Streets in your pics with or without the heat shields?

SportsterSpive
2nd January 2005, 01:36
Are the Bassani Pro Streets in your pics with or without the heat shields?

Those are without.

--Sean

Leef
2nd January 2005, 03:13
Great looking bike! Compared to the stock shorties with the baffles drilled completely out, how loud are the Bassani 2:1 (production model)? I hear that there are power/torque benefits to the 2:1 systems -- have you noticed this?

What bars are you running? I have the 883 bars on my 2004 1200R (they're a bit shorter than the stock bars) and I wish they were even a bit shorter but they can't just be cut off due to the curves interfering with the controls.

SportsterSpive
2nd January 2005, 04:55
Great looking bike! Compared to the stock shorties with the baffles drilled completely out, how loud are the Bassani 2:1 (production model)? I hear that there are power/torque benefits to the 2:1 systems -- have you noticed this?

What bars are you running? I have the 883 bars on my 2004 1200R (they're a bit shorter than the stock bars) and I wish they were even a bit shorter but they can't just be cut off due to the curves interfering with the controls.

Thanks for the compliment. It has been a lot of work over the past year, but I am getting close to where I want to be with my bike. This new 2-1 is awesome with the way the powerband feels. I am interested to get it on the dyno with the new ignition and see what she does. The new 2-1 is loud when cold, but fairly mellow when warm, unless of course you get on them. I mean the sound alone is worth it.

As far as bars go, I am running the black 1200S bars and I love them. Through my own measuring, the best thing is can figure is that the 883 stock bars are the same as the 56113-98 (28" wide, 8" base, 3.5" rise, 6.25" pullback) and the 1200S bars (which are black) are 56110-98 (26.75" wide, 6.5" base, 3.5" rise, 4.75 pullback). Not sure what the 1200R measurments are. Hope that helps.

--Sean

rottenralph
2nd January 2005, 06:26
I agree. That is a well designed bike. I like all the black accents you put on there. This shows that you really thought about where you wanted to go with the look. If you have the bug(which is eveident) you will probably want to change it as often as the rest of us. Mine has undergone 7 facelifts since 93 and I don't suppose I will ever be completely satisfied. Here is my favorite version of my own lifetime project. And the pipe does really look good. http://xlforum.net/photopost/data/500/82small_hungo.jpg

I noticed you switched from the Hypercharger to the forcewinder. Any thoughts on the change. What about power? One other comment. I think the upsweep of the pipe makes it really look good. The preproduction model looks crap in comparison. I might have to go out and bend my thunderheader up.(would like to but don't think that would be a good idea)

barry1967
2nd January 2005, 06:41
Hey bota, ya got a link to that?

Leef
2nd January 2005, 15:32
Sean, thanx for the handlebar info. I'll go measure mine. There's a Web site that has measurements for zillions of bars that can be helpful (I can't find the URL right now).

xl1200r
2nd January 2005, 18:36
I was concerend about the upsweep as well, for cornering clearance. But as I noticed, all 2:1 systems have thier lowspot more forward, before the headpipes merge. When they were putting on the Thunderheader I was concerned about this, but after taking a look at it on the bike, I realized that the kick up would not be probablem. Lucky for us '04 owners, out footpegs should hit beofre anything else...damn those things are long!

rottenralph
2nd January 2005, 19:27
I only ground the pegs during the MSF class. Since then the only time I put metal on the ground was when I was riding my heritage and that was a daily thing. I hated it every time it happened. If you get the pegs to the ground you are over about as far as you need to be. The upsweep would only give you more clearance and not less.

xl1200r
2nd January 2005, 19:49
I wasn't saying the upsweep would give you less, just that I didn't see it as an important feature for lean angles. The time I touched metal I was riding a passanger, so the bike was squatting a bit to begin with. Now I take it real easy with a passenger.

L.B.
16th January 2005, 00:52
Does anyone here use or have any experience with D&D exhaust? www.danddexhaust.com

I can't really decide if I like the way their 2-1 looks or not, but I like the 2-2's just unsure about the performance.

Turbota
16th January 2005, 01:21
Hey bota, ya got a link to that?

http://www.trampcycle.com/

Click 'cancel' whenever the "Install Language Pack" notice pops up.

lefty
18th January 2005, 20:38
:smoke To me those two into one pipes make Harleys look suspicously like . . . . . Yamahas. Dynocharts (many) on twinkies and Sportys I've seen w/2 into 1s reveal a smidgen more torque between 1 and 2K, then nothing better over 2k. No thanks. Two big fat a** pipes for me. . .cause I'm a poser, baby!

Lefty

xl1200r
18th January 2005, 20:45
just an update...no supertrapp yet. Dealer hasn're recieved it!

Nightboy
18th January 2005, 20:53
Not sure about the design of the thunderheader on a Sporty, but its a poorly designed 2:1 pipe for a BT. Has a scavanging problem in the lower midrange. Shows up as a good size dip in the torque curve around 2500-3000 rpms. Ever think about the V&H Propipe? Its a well designed 2:1.

xl1200r
18th January 2005, 21:21
Nightboy...Most 2:1 have a tourque dip in that rev range...this is true for the Theader on the sporters as well as per they dyno chart for my bike. And to the best of my knowelde there is no ProPipe availible fot he '04+ bikes yet.

Nightboy
18th January 2005, 22:30
Nightboy...Most 2:1 have a tourque dip in that rev range...this is true for the Theader on the sporters as well as per they dyno chart for my bike. And to the best of my knowelde there is no ProPipe availible fot he '04+ bikes yet. The 2:1 pipes that have a good funamental design and time spent in R&D will not show a dip. If you stating that "most" 2:1 pipes have this dip, it only proves that there is more junk than quality on the market. I can name 3-4 very good 2:1 pipes that will not have a scavenging dip in the power curve. The V&H propipe is one of them.

maddog
19th January 2005, 01:43
Not sure about the design of the thunderheader on a Sporty, but its a poorly designed 2:1 pipe for a BT. Has a scavanging problem in the lower midrange. Shows up as a good size dip in the torque curve around 2500-3000 rpms. Ever think about the V&H Propipe? Its a well designed 2:1.


A dip from 2500 tom 3000 ? Thats 500 rpm..You're right ! Get a straight pipe and have a dip from 2000 to 5000 rpm.....hmmmmm

maddog
19th January 2005, 02:09
The 2:1 pipes that have a good funamental design and time spent in R&D will not show a dip. If you stating that "most" 2:1 pipes have this dip, it only proves that there is more junk than quality on the market. I can name 3-4 very good 2:1 pipes that will not have a scavenging dip in the power curve. The V&H propipe is one of them.


Isn't the Pro pipe one of them disc types that has to be dyno'd at $150 a pop every time you change one fartin' little thing ?

maddog
19th January 2005, 02:14
:smoke To me those two into one pipes make Harleys look suspicously like . . . . . Yamahas. Dynocharts (many) on twinkies and Sportys I've seen w/2 into 1s reveal a smidgen more torque between 1 and 2K, then nothing better over 2k. No thanks. Two big fat a** pipes for me. . .cause I'm a poser, baby!

Lefty


My bike w/ Thunderheader eats them fat straight pipes for lunch every day. You just keep tellin' yourself that they don't make power over 2k. I need the money.

Nightboy
19th January 2005, 02:30
A dip from 2500 tom 3000 ? Thats 500 rpm..You're right ! Get a straight pipe and have a dip from 2000 to 5000 rpm.....hmmmmm Whats the point of this statement?

Isn't the Pro pipe one of them disc types that has to be dyno'd at $150 a pop every time you change one fartin' little thing ? No.

My bike w/ Thunderheader eats them fat straight pipes for lunch every day. You just keep tellin' yourself that they don't make power over 2k. I need the money. Would you like to put some money down against my wife's Sporty? She runs V&H Straightshot HS pipes. Ill put $1000 down that youll be sniffing her exhaust in a 1320. I need the money too. She needs the thrill.

maddog
19th January 2005, 02:42
1- Whats a 1320?
2-Let me check my catalogues to see what I want with the grand.

By the way..All you T-Header guys out there... ever lose to a bike with straight's?
I never did.

Nightboy
19th January 2005, 02:56
1- Whats a 1320?
2-Let me check my catalogues to see what I want with the grand.

By the way..All you T-Header guys out there... ever lose to a bike with straight's?
I never did.

If your serious about question # 1. you had better forget about #2.

There are a few good places we could do this in NJ. Just be sure you bring CASH.

maddog
19th January 2005, 03:17
I've heard of a 1340, but what's a 1320?

Nightboy
19th January 2005, 03:25
1320 is a 1/4 mile. So are we on? My wife and her 2-2 Sporty against your 2-1 sporty. 3 runs each. Fastest run counts. Fastest run ='s $1000.

txsporty
19th January 2005, 03:43
Sounds Like a Race to Me!!! :yikes

Nightboy
19th January 2005, 03:58
:nocomment :nosee I wish it was a race, but I think Maddog is all "bark", no bite. Loud, but harmless.

xl1200r
19th January 2005, 07:33
Well, I can pee 6 feet in the air. So there.

GRAYFEATHER
19th January 2005, 10:52
I have a 1200 R very little work but runs like a wippet with SE11 and a dame good tune.

Regards Grayfeather

SportsterBart
19th January 2005, 11:27
I can't wait to try out my Thunderheader. I know the performance will be there, just hope it's loud enough. http://photopile.com/photos/warchild/bikes/166886.gif


Bart

maddog
19th January 2005, 13:22
:nocomment :nosee I wish it was a race, but I think Maddog is all "bark", no bite. Loud, but harmless.

Thats what everyone says about me. I'm beginning to think they might be right...

maddog
19th January 2005, 13:29
I can't wait to try out my Thunderheader. I know the performance will be there, just hope it's loud enough. http://photopile.com/photos/warchild/bikes/166886.gif


Bart


I think you'll love the performance Bart. As for loudness, they aren't obnoxiously loud like a Shovel w/drags, but they do roar when opened up. At low rpm they sound mellow, like a 327 Chevy w/ glasspacks. The built in fiberglass resonator cancels high frequency sound. Your neighbors will appreciate the difference.

stevo
19th January 2005, 14:26
OK a few points about exhaust design

those of you with either Engineering backgrounds or studying ... look up "Finite Amplitude Waves"... The maths involved will make anyone short of a Maths major cringe BUT theres some good info and understanding for those that can stay with it..


It explains how a 2 stroke "power band" works

An understanding of these principals will also enable one to gain a better knowledge of how different pipe setups will have different characteristics..

A GOOD muffled 2-2 with a cross-over pipe will give a good bottom to mid range..

A good 2-1 will give a dip around the 2500 mark and come real good around 3500 (yes lady of the night...that's a general rule due to the physics involved)

Drag pipes are near useless under 4500 but from there they can make real good power if the length is correct for the set up.


Crims comparison IS relevant as it was done on a 1200S which had W grind cams, the same as the '04's
There will not be much different in primary header lengths between the pre and post '04's

At the end of the day what pipe works with one combo MAY not be the best for another... the more HP or capcity you have the more sesitive to pipes it is.

As my new motor goes together at 88" I expect to have to build my own custom exhaust and I do not expect it to be right the first time.

This is an area that is still as much "black art" as it is Science

lefty
19th January 2005, 14:46
Whoa, lots of talk on this subject since I last visited yesterday. And, Maddog, I didn't say your beloved Thunderheaders don't produce power above 2k, maybe you should re-read my last post. What I said was that 2 into 1s don't appreciably increase grunt/hp above 2k (meaning over 2 into 2). As mentioned above, good 2 into 2s w/a quality crossover do a nice job as well. And, I identified myself as a poser, which means I like pipes that LOOK GOOD. You can have that little bit of extra power by slapping a poorly finished, ugly, bluing, Jap look Thunderheader on your bike if you wish and I'm happy for you. I want my Harley to look like a Harley, not a Yamaha wannabe.

Lefty

maddog
19th January 2005, 15:01
Lefty..Perhaps what Stevo just explained is the answer. It's all dependent on the particular head/cam combo. I have seen good numbers out of 2:2's. Your love of straight pipes makes you a traditionalist HD guy, meaning you like the claccic look. You're not alone..Most HD guys do..
But you're the first guy I ever heard say that 2:1's look Jap. The first thing that pops into my head when I see'em is "Racer".
The key to youre statement is "Quality Crossover". I agree with you.But drag pipes rarely have crossovers.
My high opinion of the T-Header, aside from performance, is that ifollows the K.I.S.S. principle (Keep it simple stupid). You don't have to dick around with a Dyno every time you change one simple thing. It will compliment a motor from stock to 100 hp, ideally on the street. Full out drag bikes are a whole 'nother story.

lefty
19th January 2005, 15:04
Maddog, well said, thanks. Yes, 2:1 does look more like a "race" application, and yes, I'm a traditionalist.

Lefty

stevo
19th January 2005, 15:20
here's a pic of the 2-1 pips I'm runnin on mine.... They are Australian made and make good HP and also give good ground clearance in the twisties





http://www.iqconnect.net.au/~stevo/sportyburn.jpg

xl1200r
19th January 2005, 15:55
The only company I know that makes a Jap looking pipe for Sportsters is Vance and Hines, with that SS2R thing...2:1's are a great looking pipe ( or they can be, depending on the brand ).

HrdlyDangrs
22nd January 2005, 19:52
NO HARLEY EVER LOOKS LIKE A JAP BIKE REGARDLESS OF WHAT DESIGN THE JAP DESIGNERS TRY TO COME UP WITH......

THEY DID NOT INVENT THE 2 OR MORE PIPE INTO ONE DESIGN...THAT GOES BACK TO THE EARLY 1900's.......

EVERY DESIGN IN JAP MOTORCYCLES WAS ORIGINATED BY AN AMERICAN, EUROPEAN, BRITISH MOTORCYCLE COMPANY SUCH AS HARLEY, INDIAN, HENDERSON, TRIUMPH, , BMW, ETC, ETC.....

JAPANESE MOTORCYCLES FOLLOW HARLEY DESIGNS TILL THIS DAY......

JAPAN FIRST REAL FULL SIZE MOTORCYCLE WAS THE RICKU...A JAP BUILT '45 FROM TOOLING AND DESIGNS BROUGHT OVER TO JAPAN BY HD.

THE 'CAFE RACER' LOOK GOES BACK EVEN BEFORE THE 'BOARD TRACK RACERS' IN AMERICA BACK IN THE 20's.....

NEVER.....EVER REFER YOUR HARLEY TO A JAP BIKE.....HARLEY WAS AND CONTINUE TO BE FIRST IN DESIGN.....

BIG HARLEY MOTORS DON'T NEED NO MUFFLERS.......

THANK YOU :soap :luvsport :usa2 :D

xl1200r
11th February 2005, 16:05
Okay, Okay...this thread went a little off base, not that I mind since the Supertrapp was on back order for so long. But alas, I have some good news!

I called my dealer yesterday and they informed that the pipe had just shown up that day and they were just getting it on the dyno. I'll stopping in later today to take a look at the dyno graphs and to take a listen to the bike. I will be able to compare the stock pipe with the SEII's, the Thunderheader, and the Supertrapp. Stay posted!!!

I'll try to scan and post the dyno results so everyone can come to thier own conclusions.

xl1200r
13th February 2005, 17:28
So, here we go...

The Supertrapp came off the dyno and there's no question of which I'm getting. The Supertrapp absolutely KILLED the Thunderheader. I can't post the graphs yet, but I can tell you what I was able to interpret.

Compared to the SEII's, the Thunderheader made less HP and less tourque below about 3700 rpm, but made big gains in both HP and tourque over 3700 rpm. Like the SEII's, the HP curve is just about leveled off at the stock 6000 rpm redline.

In comparison, the Suptrapp makes HUGE tourque below 3700 rpm...as much a 7 lbs more compared to the Thunderheader. It also makes slightly more HP in the same rev range. Above 3700 rpm, it still makes slightly more HP than the SEII's, and slightly less than the Thunderheader. However, the curve is still on a strong upswing, telling me that a higher rev limiter would allow bigger HP, whereas the Thunderheader seemed to be running out of steam.

And the sound...The supertrapp is pretty quiet in comparison to Thunderheader, and the even louder SEII's. But when you give it a good twist, you still know it's there. It's a very unique sound. All-in-all, I love it. And it just looks cool as hell.

But, I only have one question. When looking at the air/fuel graph, it showed the mixture was getting progressively leaner as it reached the readline. This was liniarly, not like it just turned up at the very end. It is possible that they be getting an inaccurate reading because of the nature in how the exhaust exits on the supertrapp (radially)? Any help would be great. I will be stopping on a Monday to talk with the tech that did all the work.

rottenralph
13th February 2005, 17:34
So, now that you spent al this time comparing the three. How were the supertrapps setup. with or without cap. 8 to 40 discs? How Many? 2 to 1 or duals? Last question. How high was rev limit. At about 6000 your motor has had enough. I suppose 8000 would give the needed boost. Too bad the heads would blow off when the rods stretched and broke. I had em both at one point and the Supertrapp had a great sound and look. I still pull much better wheelies with the theader with 3000 rpm throttle whack. That is my dyno. Also could not use supertrapp 2 to 1 with fwd ctrls. My bike has significant internal engine mods and the ride is just better for me with the t-header. I suppose the exhaust will favor a bike thaqt has the changes that best suit the pipes range.

Now to maddog, No i have never lost to another Harley. I did not even lose the several races in Dyatona with my wife on the back. My throttle response is so fast that I would not have time to fart to notice a dip. Theaders are great for those of us that love them.

xl1200r
13th February 2005, 17:54
Rottenralph...

You were the first one I thought of when I saw the graph because of what you had told me when you compared the two. The pipe is the new 2:1 (different from what you would have been using, and the bend allows for forward controls). I believe the final setup was running 20 discs with the closed cap. I'm sure certain pipes will fit different engines better. What I really liked was that if I ever wanted to make bigger number up higher in the range, I could add more discs to move the power band up. The Thunderheader was already great in the higher revs, but you stuck with it. Also, my redline is 6000 rpm, but an ignition module will bring that up to 7000 rpm. That's about as high as I would want to take it.

rottenralph
13th February 2005, 18:08
Read the sportster power bible and you will see that going over 6000 is not all that wise. These bikes are great under there but they tend to not like the 6000+. The long stroke makes the high revs a bad idea. Look up piston head speed and you will see that too much causes cracks in the stock con. rods and eventually terminal failure. You don't want that kind of blow up undr the family jewels. Here is another pipe to look at. Saw it on ebay for $350. http://i15.ebayimg.com/01/i/03/40/75/fa_12_sb.JPG

MP98
13th February 2005, 19:51
RottenRalph makes a good point about seat of the pants.

xl1200R,I enjoyed your shairing in your experience and I am shure you will enjoy any one you choose.I would have loved to hear your opinion on each one if you got to ride all of them.

aswracing
13th February 2005, 20:28
Tens of thousands of Buells have shipped with the same components as a Sportster and a 6800 rpm rev limit right from the factory. Rpm related motor failures are relatively rare.

Lots and lots of guys set up their motors to power peak in the 7000 to 7500 rpm range, with no issues. The lower ends are fairly tough. Occassionally you see a failure but not that often, and you see some lower end failures on bone stock bikes, too. A lot depends on how much time you spend up there. An occassional visit doesn't hurt anything.

That said, we made pass after pass at Bonneville with my M2, stock lower end, over 150mph, 7500rpm for 3 miles at a time. And the bike has literally hundreds of 7500rpm dyno pulls on it over the years. By all rights, it ought to fail, but it hasn't.

New Buell XB9's have a 7500 rpm limit from the factory, albeit with a shorter stroke.

rottenralph
13th February 2005, 21:43
I imagine you guys no what you are talking about. I read it along the way during my build. I rarely go to rev limit because on the street it is rarely nec. On the flats I imagine it is. I don't even know if my bike would reach the limit with its current gearing. My 87 mustang gt never peaked in top gear even with lots of work. 160 mph @4600 was all she would do and I can't see my bike still climbing at 120 or so. Your race engines are tuned to the nth degree and I would expect them to last. Still remember reading something about piston head speed and long stroke and too many rpm's are not so good but your bike tells a dif. story. Still wont go over the 5800 or so mine is set at. I just don't need those extra couple of revs.

xl1200r
15th February 2005, 02:36
Ralph,

Your logic is not incorrect, but there are contradicting statements as you've seen. You can also keep this in mind...Although they are extremely modified, a top-fuel dragster with 500 cubic inches runs something like 12-13,000 rpm. I'm not saying I would ever run my bike at 7000 rpm all day, but if I were ever to build it for more of a performance bike, I think the Supertrapp would be better with my engine setup, just as the Theader is better for yours.

rottenralph
19th February 2005, 04:31
I only know that the thunderheader kicks butt. I also know that the muffled sound of the supertrapp was the best my bike ever sounded. I take oopmfff over the ahhhh.