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doodah man
4th October 2011, 12:02
alright transmission experts, i have finally come up with the dough to get it fixed so this will be the first of many questions. last rode the bike in june when i went down to meet wooley and friends, kick start began to engage less and less, but i limped it home and found out someone in this bikes past made the dreaded and unforgiveable roller bearing/washer/retainer mistake . so my first Q -

in my studying the backlog of this site i have noticed many people who have replaced their main shaft race and kept the original trap door, did not have the two line honed; just a little finishing up and with a brake hone, no less. is this ok or is it standard practice to line hone no matter what. obviously it's a good idea, but is it completely necessary?

i plan on doing the all andrews gears/shafts - with that in mind, do i just get the standard sized race (and obviously an assortment of roller bearing sizes to fit)? are the over sized races for using the old/original main shaft to "soak up" the size difference from wear?

shift forks - mine had andrews clutch and counter drive gears, the rest were hodgepodge mixture and my shift forks were not standard size. now that i'm starting fresh, would standard size forks be the correct thing to begin with? or does the "probable error" originate with the trap door and necessitate using the same over/under sized forks - they're both badly worn and cannot be reused.

that's all i can think of to ask at 6:30 in the morning, but keep watching this one, i'm sure to have more crazy questions. and thanks for your input,insight, and experience.

ryder rick
4th October 2011, 13:38
You won't know about the shift forks until you assemble the trans and get it shimmed. No way to predict that.

fdny37
4th October 2011, 15:12
I have to say if you can get your race line honed then you should do that. However, when building my '68 CH from parts off of ebay I purchased a complete used trans that I just stuck in the hole. Being these bikes are old and back in the day when they where built the tolerance's where pretty sloppy I don't think it will hurt you much if you don't have it line honed. I just kept checking for any binding or tightness. You do know those rollers on the end of the mainshaft come in different over sizes.

Ferrous Head
5th October 2011, 00:06
I replaced the mainshaft race with a "stock" race and stock size rollers when I put the close ratio box into my race bike. When that gearbox "died" I just replaced it with a "stock" box I bought off e-pray and it went in perfectly and works well. (Better than the close ratio trock/Andrews setup.
Bolt the door in with just the clutch gear and mainshaft in. Install the rollers as if you were finishing the job completely.
If it spins OK, no drag then I'd say you can run it without further drama.

doodah man
5th October 2011, 05:00
ryder rick, so what you're saying is to hold off on getting any forks until later, almost last in the trans assembly? i kind-of understand that the forks individually space out ms 2nd and cs 3rd gears and the pawl carrier support can be shimmed away from the trap door, which will also affect the spacing of the forks and perspective gears. wow, that's a lot to wrap my mind around! can you tell i've never done a trans before!? i guess i'm confused on how to go about determining the needed fork offset, fsm is vague to me on this point.

f.d. the guy i spoke with about line honing wants me to pull the engine and i'd really rather not, if i can avoid it; and here we have two more accounts of no line honing and good results, hmm - we'll see. i was/am aware of the different size roller bearings and a pm from dr. dick shed some light (and a few tricks, thanks doc!) on what you and ferrous head have said about fitting roller bearings and making sure things roll smoothly, that part seems pretty straight forward to me now.

so the next question - how do you guys deal with getting the main shaft 3rd gear retaining ring in place? i had a helluva-time getting that damned thing off - bent the living shit out of it! i do not posses the obsolete and elusive 96396-52 retaining ring sleeve; so how do you accomplish installing that ring. tried a search for it here and came up with nothing, pages and pages of everything except for that!
thanks for the responses so far, keep 'm coming...

doodah man
5th October 2011, 05:20
...what's a thread without at least a little eye candy!?
http://i1200.photobucket.com/albums/bb340/spacemancliff/100_3909.jpg
you can see the heat discoloration and how badly the race is torn up.
http://i1200.photobucket.com/albums/bb340/spacemancliff/100_3908.jpg
fried! you can almost see where the retaining ring grove dissapears. and i know i need an expansion plug for that shift shaft hole. not to mention a good cleaning!
http://i1200.photobucket.com/albums/bb340/spacemancliff/100_3882-1.jpg
cs low gear is highly representative of how the rest of the gears look
http://i1200.photobucket.com/albums/bb340/spacemancliff/100_3880-1.jpg
this is the good fork, wtf!?!
http://i1200.photobucket.com/albums/bb340/spacemancliff/100_3864-1.jpg
main shaft roller bearing race contact area galled to hell and back.
i have a few more carnage pics, but it's late so i'll save them for another time.

Ferrous Head
5th October 2011, 09:22
These ARE good gearboxes, but like all of them, loose a 10 cent retaining ring and it all goes down the chute.
I don't think ANYONE has the retaining ring spreader. But you can get them on easily enough with just a thin screwdriver. They will take a certain amount of bending, twisting, just go carefully. Buy a couple and if you DO bend/twist one too far just toss it. You'll find it's not as hard as getting them off. Which is OK as I try to never re-use any small cheap parts like these.

If your shafts, gears, pawl carrier, trap door and bearing are all reasonably good items you won't need + or - shift forks or shims under the pawl carrier..

billeuze
5th October 2011, 16:22
yeh, you need the tranny assembled to determine if you need + or - forks and/or shims. Once it's assembled on the bench it's not too hard to measure and figure out what's needed. But yes it can be hard to get on'es mind around the description if you don't have your tranny there in front of you

But you have to have it assembled with forks of some sort to start with. Yours... I don't know how accurate that would be to know what you need if assembled with those in place.

As far as I know, line honing is mostly important when you get a new trap door. I agree with ferrous head above: bolt it up with just the mainshaft and see how it spins. If good, no need to line bore.

Hmm, I never had any problems with retainer rings, maybe I just got lucky.

DR DICK
5th October 2011, 17:36
this is what i use for 3rd gear ring.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-gIc8F0lv9Ag/ToyAS0pbfJI/AAAAAAAABaA/YJGxqV_wiPI/s576/1005011158.jpg

those dots are drill points i made to help hold certain ret rings. i found they are only a small help
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-VOIdYBiEWq8/ToyATFVoJGI/AAAAAAAABaE/DnwtF8Jk9aY/s576/1005011201.jpg


if you think the 3rd gear ring is hard to deal with, wait till its big brother needs to be installed. the one in the right side case race for the 23 rollers!

personally i do the fork spacing 1st, then shim for end play.
i do that because on the counter shaft there are shims that go on both sides of cshaft low gear (17t).
the shims (2 shims on 73> type gear, one on 72< speedo type gear) on left (shaft) side of 17t gear will affect fork spaceing. so you can use them to your advantage with forks.

when changeing them for fork spacing after cshaft has been shimmed in case will require you to reshim in case for end play. because you have changed the deck height of the c'shaft assm.

on mainshaft, shims have no effect on fork setting. so this can be done in either order

brassy63
6th October 2011, 10:11
what size mainshaft race are you going for a stock, 3 thou or 5 thou over, and the needle roller sizes are .156 of an inch stock and the next 2 sizes .160 and .164 thou, are you gonna get the needle rolllers lapped ? I would.

DR DICK
6th October 2011, 14:02
what size mainshaft race are you going for a stock, 3 thou or 5 thou over, and the needle roller sizes are .156 of an inch stock and the next 2 sizes .160 and .164 thou, are you gonna get the needle rolllers lapped ? I would.

correct me if im wrong. trying to clearify.

the oversize of mainshaft race applies to od of race where it fits in case, correct?

and the rollers
.1562 = std size
.1566 = +.0004 1st oversize
.1570 = +.0008 2nd oversize

doodah man
6th October 2011, 14:45
the oversize of mainshaft race applies to od of race where it fits in case, correct?

interesting question. it seems like (to me) if the i.d. of the race was oversized there would have to be undersized rollers available, which there aren't?! just sent Jims an email about it, will post results when they get back to me...

i thought i read an old post some time ago by "old man with a k model" about "fine tuning" the roller bearings to ensure they are perfectly round, but i can't seem to find it now. anyone know about this?

chevelle
6th October 2011, 16:56
Are you missing the mainshaft shim anti rotation pin?
I would change that c/s bearing as well.
Not sure it matters but the main race should have the oil slots at 12,3,6,9 I believe, spun?

brassy63
7th October 2011, 00:18
correct me if im wrong. trying to clearify.

the oversize of mainshaft race applies to od of race where it fits in case, correct?

and the rollers
.1562 = std size
.1566 = +.0004 1st oversize
.1570 = +.0008 2nd oversize

yes, sometimes they wear from poor alignment bad swingarm bushes and so on. I have seen a couple where the race has been put in with a silicone type gasket goo and it doesn't work and ends up costing the guy who owns it heaps to get it all nutted out. if you aren't pressing it in then its not the correct size.

garbiker
7th October 2011, 00:47
question. looking at tha cases have they been welded?? around the middle?looks like a weld around the inside of cases. ? or just the way it looks. dont rember then with the bead look inside. lots were . . ??gar

brassy63
7th October 2011, 00:51
question. looking at tha cases have they been welded?? around the middle?looks like a weld around the inside of cases. ? or just the way it looks. dont rember then with the bead look inside. lots were . . ??gar

No

garbiker
7th October 2011, 00:58
ok . just looking at the inside. had one that was welded and was not lined up. and had a problem . cu gar .

doodah man
7th October 2011, 02:07
Are you missing the mainshaft shim anti rotation pin?
not real sure about this, having never seen one before! so probably am missing it, that would be my luck. got a pic of what it's supposed to look like? is that slot right above the cs needle bearing where it goes? yeah, i'm sure that race spun around in there to get out of "clock" like that - not to mention the chipped edges of the flange. if it didn't spin then those chipped areas should've been centralized to the left side of it (as you are facing the photo - make sense) as the shaft canted toward the rear of the bike and low gear dug into it, right? is it pretty safe to say i need to get my race at least one size over because of this, or go with standard? i am definitely changing out both cs bearings. seems like it'd be a waste not to when into it this far - especially considering the small cost of the parts.

as it turns out, the left side case has been repaired in the past - i can't sit here and believe that the po didn't know about this when he sold it to me - grrrr. i noticed it the first time i changed the oil/primary juice. here's a better shot...
http://i1200.photobucket.com/albums/bb340/spacemancliff/100_3910.jpg
if you were to look at the underside of the belly you'd see a repair section about as wide and long as your index finger - left case only, right case no repairs, at least not visible. no idea who repaired the case or when.

thanks for all your posts so far, i'm learning a lot, just too bad it has to be the hard way, right? and a special thanks to dr. dick who was there when it seemed as simple as "hey, you're missing the dowels that locate your sprocket cover" - things were brighter then.

doodah man
7th October 2011, 03:20
Are you missing the mainshaft shim anti rotation pin?

just realized that the anti rotation pin is above the mainshaft (12 o'clock), and the slot above the countershaft must be for oiling to the bearing.

so, this damned pin... should be a press fit? anyone have the dimensions or a source or even a picture of it? it's listed in the parts manual but not in the two catalogs i have - j/p or vtwin, of course!

Huns147
7th October 2011, 05:09
Oversize on the transmission output shaft race means on the O.D.

Those are made to fix a case where catastrophic damage has occured & the race spun in the hole. Haven't run into that situation yet myself, but I have accumulated an adjustable ream & a Jims .005 over race to examine.

Figure I'd make an alignment collar/fixture to center off the trap door bearing. That's the way my line hone tool works.

Richard

85mm
7th October 2011, 23:38
I bought a standard race and standard rollers for my rebuild. If you try to put them together brand new,they won't go. You have to hone out your race until the rollers fit. If I recall correctly, I took out about .001 inches off, measured on the diameter of the race. Then I checked the up and down slop of the shaft with a dial indicator and got about .00075 clearance. This is about standard clearance for this size roller bearing.

The reason the races have to be honed is that the bore in the case has too much tolerance for a roller bearing. The race presses into the bore and squeezes down. The bearing manufacturer has no way to tell how big the bore is and how much the race will squeeze down. So they make the race so that almost all of them will have to be honed out. Be sure to clean the bore of the case with super fine sandpaper before you press the race in. Any dirt, corrosion, dings will affect how much squeeze is put on the race when you press it in.

Your case is welded BUT YOU ARE LUCKY. Up where the bearings are located is fine, and this is the most critical area. Your case broke because the primary chain broke and smashed it. Not a good thing, but not nearly as bad as having the bearing part broken.

Ferrous Head
8th October 2011, 00:20
just realized that the anti rotation pin is above the mainshaft (12 o'clock), and the slot above the countershaft must be for oiling to the bearing.

so, this damned pin... should be a press fit? anyone have the dimensions or a source or even a picture of it? it's listed in the parts manual but not in the two catalogs i have - j/p or vtwin, of course!

It's a standard size roll pin - I just can't remember what it is. If you don't have one there at all just check that the hole is ok and measure it's depth.
These aren't critical in that you can drill a suitable hole next to the old one and just drop a roll pin in there. What it does is to stop the washer from spinning with the shaft/gear and wearing the case. If you look at the thrust washers for the mainshaft you'll see a tag on each washer. It hits the roll pin and stops the spin. They get "MASHED" becuase people forget to make sure the tag on the washer isn't pointing down (or at least not to 12 O'clock) when the put the gearbox in and tighten down the trap door bolts.

doodah man
8th October 2011, 19:47
my ms thrust washer looks rough...
http://i1200.photobucket.com/albums/bb340/spacemancliff/100_3988.jpg
mottled and pitted on case side
http://i1200.photobucket.com/albums/bb340/spacemancliff/100_3987.jpg
and shiny and burnt on gear side.
disassembled the pawl carrier support...
http://i1200.photobucket.com/albums/bb340/spacemancliff/100_3971.jpg
http://i1200.photobucket.com/albums/bb340/spacemancliff/100_3977.jpg
don't know if those cracks are trouble or not (?), they don't show through on the back. can't seem to find 34512-52A in my parts book, only item #40 34514-75A listed for "77 up. i see one currently
listed on ebay described as '52 - '76.

ryder rick
8th October 2011, 20:39
Those are not cracks they are die casting marks.

doodah man
8th October 2011, 20:43
Those are not cracks they are die casting marks.

good, that makes me feel better - replacements are right damned expensive!

Ferrous Head
8th October 2011, 23:30
There are two types of pawl carriers. Early ones which use pawls in pawl holders (tubes ?) and the later style which you have. Early ones can be a complete pain. The pawls can stick and you can't ashift either down or up depending on which side sticks.
I know Ron Trock made steel replacement pawl carriers and have heard that the alloy ones can crack. But I've never seen a broken one so never bothered with the steel ones (iron ?)
As I've never come across a broken one I can't tell you where they break. I myself would just use the part you have.

DR DICK
10th October 2011, 01:04
There are two types of pawl carriers. Early ones which use pawls in pawl holders (tubes ?) and the later style which you have. Early ones can be a complete pain. The pawls can stick and you can't ashift either down or up depending on which side sticks.
I know Ron Trock made steel replacement pawl carriers and have heard that the alloy ones can crack. But I've never seen a broken one so never bothered with the steel ones (iron ?)
As I've never come across a broken one I can't tell you where they break. I myself would just use the part you have.


actually there are 4 different versions of oem 'pawl carriers'.

and 5 oem versions of the 'pawl carrier support'. (i call this part 'shift tower').

here the towers are in order:

1) used on k models

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-oRAsLDeBg8E/TpIjWyduuMI/AAAAAAAABdI/cYhGpmXRkBY/s208/EzQ%25257E%25257E_12.jpg

#2/#3/#4) next 2 pics.
i dont have a pic of #3 but the text should suffice. i hope.
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-Pen4aeNaeEI/TpIQj_gK5LI/AAAAAAAABdE/Frk7IdqhhkA/s576/1009011649.jpg

the 1st line of text should read 71< on left. 72-76 on RIGHT.
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-lA1weQgaVu4/TpIQk1HxueI/AAAAAAAABdU/W_RflnPtCHg/s576/1009011650.jpg

#5) changed for clearence of the 77 up shifter shaft that came in from the left.
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-isetvoXK5L0/TpEQoOC_ktI/AAAAAAAABdY/5Jcy8qKvegs/s576/P6190223.jpg

next is the old trock cast iron tower.
by far the best shift fork control. and never breaks. best of both worlds.
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-NPrj9IXClmI/TpIwr_OFgqI/AAAAAAAABgA/JOLHYUxlifo/s576/0814011435-1.jpg

doodah man
22nd January 2012, 22:23
hey wanted to run something by you guys to make sure if i'm thinking straight... or not!

measuring gear spacing:
on c.s.
2nd gear is "stationary" so the spacing between it and 3rd's dogs is totally dependent on the fork size (+ or - to achieve .038 -.058)? on mine currently, with a standard fork, i'm getting ~.071 for which i would need a +.020 fork to get in tolerance, or have i got something screwed up? then, when this is set, i can measure for low gear's space? is this what the good doctor is referring to when he says you do c.s. fork spacing first, as anything else will change deck height of counter assy? if yes then that one makes sense in my head. additionally, what if case side of low gear can be properly spaced away form 3rd with just one shim of the correct thickness, or does it have to have two shims for some odd reason? all references i've seen say '74 up have two...? just curious...

on m.s.
clutch gear and 3rd gear are stationary, so the fork i select must split the difference in such a way as to give .043-.083? so the only place spacing shims would really get used is on the counter shaft? am i on the right track, or way out in left field on this? never done any of this trans stuff so i need all the help i can get, ya'll!

DR DICK
24th January 2012, 02:37
yeah doodah your on the right track.

your thinkin bout 'stationary' is solid. for the most part. and on the workbench. in the bike there are slight differences. as shafts float in what ever end play you set up relationships of gears to each other will change. if you check out the bench assm with this end float in mind you will see what i mean. clutchgear/main 2nd is a little more complicated on 71> bikes. lets deal with that when you shim main.

another issue that you need to be aware of is when on bench entire right end of trans is not held in place like when assmed into cases. with the 3 shafts (main, counter, fork) wigglin around the gear spacing changes with the wiggle. so you need to 'best guess' by being very observant of what happens as you 'hold everything in position best you can'.

the next thing to be aware of is the different neutrals.
1) when cam plate is notched to follow plunger in the 'all neutral' notch between 1st & 2nd gear. in this position no drive dogs are engaged.

in addn in this neutral the main second gear is in the same position as will be when either 1st or 2nd gear is selected and engaged.

2) the neutral position of the cs third may be different if cam plate is positioned in 'all neutral' from when plate is at 3rd or 4th gear engaged position. you will have to observe what im layin down here to get a better mental picture.

heres what the fork spacing acts like.
1) close spacing gives more dog engagement depth. this means dogs will need to wear more before they start actin wrong. good for mileage between gear replacements.

2) wide spacing means the camplate needs to rotate more before gear sets engage. at first glance this is undesirable. lessen engage depths.

the thing thats not visible on the bench as you juggle all the clearances around is the on the road smoothness of gear changes. the thing that add to the smooth shifting action is when the engage points are later in the rotation of cam plate when the follower goes over hump between gears. as this happens the follower tends to snap the camplate into next gear. this spring powered gear changing is quicker than most guys usually row the shifter. that means the follower advances the camplate off the shift lever while gears are engaging. giving the lever the feel of 'effortless smooth gear changes'. while the tightest gear clearances will tend to feedback engagement to the shifter lever resulting in a notchy feel.

not all bike are susceptible to this. the more draggy your clutch the less notchy the feel. for you guys runnin full free dry clutches this can be much more common. because the gears can touch face to face when dogs are not lined up resulting in both gears spinning as if engaged because there is no clutch drag acting on one of the pair.

so what i do is dispense with the clearance figures and really observe the timings and depths of engagements. and zoom in on the action of all the parts in order to build a smoother trans.

i realize that ive done 1000 trans jobs and your doin your 1st. so you got nothing to compare to.

on the other hand not givin you this info isnt gonna help you in gettin a better understanding of whats happening.

on to 'can you use 1 shim on left side of 1st gear'. not a good idea. remember that 72< speedo drive 1st use 1 shim, 73> use 2. on wetclutch bike the follower snap into 1st is VERY important for a nice shift from neutral action. too small clearance here will give a lazy engage. wearing dogs and feelin like crap. dont be afraid to make the 1st clearance larger. your not gonna be powershifting into 1st very often.

if i left any thing out or raised new questions fire back.

doodah man
24th January 2012, 04:11
thanks dr.d you've given me a new perspective on this. didn't really take into account the degree to which the shaft endplay can effect the spacing itself; plus shafts not being trapped to the case. went to the kitchen table (read: work bench!) and nudged the shaft out of the trap door just a hair and observed how it closed up the space between 2nd and 3rd as a crude means of simulating the shaft end-float. so now i understand the nuance of what you're saying there. i've read so many accounts that say "not only does the spacing have to fall within spec, they must also be equalized" (per shaft). is this as important as observing and optimizing the dog engagements, or is it more of the case that they go hand in hand - one will tend to solve the other?

doodah man
9th March 2012, 15:52
haven't updated this thread apparently since my birthday! anyway, trans is now assembled and this coming sunday i will finally have a chance to install and check for shaft end play, plus some other odds and ends that need attention. this will be the first time the trans and bike have been in the same room together since last july. damn, i hope they still get along :wonderlan. thanks to all of you who have been there to help me out. i'll get some fresh pics up maybe sunday night...

doodah man
12th March 2012, 15:39
yesterday (sunday) went well however i screwed the pooch on getting pics of the work. forgot i even brought my camera with me. anyway, first item on the list was fitting the (anti) roll pin for m.s. thrust washer. this ended up being a lot easier than it looked. i thought i was going to have a hard time due to the limited space inside the trans cavity, but that was not the case. i did have to drill a fresh hole, though. and now the pin protrudes the correct length into the cavity (3/16"). next out came the propane torch to heat the case insert for the m.s. race. spent some time with the heat on, then got the race in fairly easy. did a few other things while the race cooled - namely got my left hand control wiring extended for my "new" buckhorns - another ebay score! and hung the new brake operating rod. don't know what the old rod came off of, but the nuts for the drum end are too small for my new part so i need to visit the hardware store soon to finish that off. well the meat and potatoes of the day was measuring end play. once the trans was installed, i used a beefy ball hitch to attach my dial indicator/magnetic base to, hokey i know, but it worked. i ended up with .033 play on the main, and .058 on the counter. ordered the appropriate "shims" after getting back home. also got the big fat scar on my cam cover ground down and my engine side covers got primed and painted hammered black. here's the only eye candy i managed to get...
http://i1200.photobucket.com/albums/bb340/spacemancliff/100_4100.jpg
http://i1200.photobucket.com/albums/bb340/spacemancliff/100_4099.jpg