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DirtyCory
18th November 2011, 05:42
long list of stuff to do to this bike this year. its time to get it back to the way it should be. im going to be getting rid of all of the aftermarket parts that i can and replacing them with NOS parts or good used harley parts. hoping the motor is all good except for the pistons that i will have to replace witch i will show later. im going to try to put the bike mostly back to stock except for the handle bars, seat, and i am going to convert my XLH to kick only.

well, here is my winter work shop this year...
http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb385/corygodden/restoration/039-1.jpg
http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb385/corygodden/restoration/040.jpg
and the basics for now
http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb385/corygodden/restoration/041.jpg

i tore the top end off today after work and i wasnt happy what i found. things dont look the best. ive been nursing an intake leak(for the last time too, will get to that later in thread)since i got back from sturgis. i wanted to make it the rest of the season. so i had been playing with carb to get a richer mix to try to make up for the intake leak and i guess i really had it too rich.:doh big time carbon build up.
http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb385/corygodden/restoration/043.jpg
http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb385/corygodden/restoration/044.jpg

but heres the worst part. this is nasty
http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb385/corygodden/restoration/050.jpg
at some point, something come down the drain hole in the cylinder and hung up and pretty much :censor ed the piston.

and this is why i think that
http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb385/corygodden/restoration/051.jpg

cylinders dont look the best but they are not bad. im hoping that they can just be honed cause these cylinders are already at .040
http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb385/corygodden/restoration/042.jpg
http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb385/corygodden/restoration/053.jpg
http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb385/corygodden/restoration/052.jpg

still got lots more to do! here is the begining! this is gonna be a long thread!:tour

hcrashster
18th November 2011, 05:51
Yowza! Hope you find something in one piece down in the sump. What broke of the head, half of a valve keeper?

DR DICK
18th November 2011, 07:16
whats that funny lookin thing in the intake oil return hole. rear head.

hcrashster
18th November 2011, 15:15
Probably shaved piston.

Flame__
18th November 2011, 15:22
Ouch! Hope to see this thing running soon! God luck!

IronHead78
18th November 2011, 22:37
There does look to be something in that hole, the DR. has a good eye. Could it be part of the culprit or just a flake of carbon that fell in?

DirtyCory
19th November 2011, 00:03
whats that funny lookin thing in the intake oil return hole. rear head.

hey dr dick. i see what your saying in the photo. think it was a glare from flash off of oil or something.

so, my wheels been turning all day at work thinkin bout this and about 4 or so years ago, about 250 miles on the bike, one day i was riding along and pretty suddenly, the motor sounded really sluggish, it was fightin something(oil), :censor the oil light is on!! pull over its spittin oil out the vent tube. got it home, sheard a return key in the oil pump. piece of something lodged in the bottom of the oil pump real tight. good size piece. bout the size of a rod bearing... got it out and replaced the key and put it back together. i also checked pushrod adjustment at the same time and in the rear clyinder, cant remember if intake or exhaust but there was a small piece of metal laying on the cork when i lifted it up. cleaned everything back up and changed oil and rode it. and been riding it ever since. i have always had about 145lbs compression and i just checked the compression bout a week before i brought the bike in.

so i think i know when this happend, and i also just found out where the pieces came from...i shoulda took the valve cover off yesterday:doh.. opened it up and this is what i see...

http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb385/corygodden/restoration/004.jpg

man i dont know why i didnt take the head off then...:doh i dont know how long its been like this but im pretty sure that this is that noise that i have been hearing that i was telling you about. i dont understand how i did not notice major differences with a busted spring.

hcrashster
19th November 2011, 01:37
Amazing! Riding all this time on a dampner spring. Ironheads are truly the toughest bike there is.

IronMick
19th November 2011, 02:07
So a piece of the outer spring broke off and got jammed between the inner spring and the outer spring. It looks to me like you were still getting about 75% performance out of that outer spring and maybe 80% from the inner, counting the still active spring turns. Pretty lucky i would think.

DirtyCory
19th November 2011, 02:21
So a piece of the outer spring broke off and got jammed between the inner spring and the outer spring. It looks to me like you were still getting about 75% performance out of that outer spring and maybe 80% from the inner, counting the still active spring turns. Pretty lucky i would think.

hey mick, outer sping is completly loose. i dont think the outer spring was doing anything. its busted all to hell. i sure did get lucky on this. im thinking this happened almost 5000 miles ago. thats when i sheared the oil pump key. crazy!!

DirtyCory
19th November 2011, 02:21
amazing! Riding all this time on a dampner spring. Ironheads are truly the toughest bike there is.

+1!!!!!

hcrashster
19th November 2011, 02:31
Well, I expect nothing less from 78s. They should be universally held as the apogee of Sportster development. :clap To be serious, Can you account for all loose metal? Can you trust what might be 33 year old springs any longer? If not Manley makes an outstanding product.

pilgrim356
19th November 2011, 06:30
Proof if ya needed it though they have all the bad press they just keep on going dont think a rice burner would have got you home in that state !!

DirtyCory
20th November 2011, 20:22
waiting on valve spring compressor tool to arrive before i can address the broken valve and try to put it back together to see if i can tell how many pieces are unaccounted for. hoping i will see a NOS set come up on ebay soon.

so the next thing i wanted to check was for any bearing wear in the bottom end.

this is from fsm piston and cylinder pg 3-17
http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb385/corygodden/restoration/007.jpg
so, with my motor, it is wrong to check it like this???
http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb385/corygodden/restoration/003.jpg
checking side play this way i got 1/16th on front rod and 1/32 on rear rod.
why is it different on 77-78 motors? i found no appreciable up and down movement, i couldnt feel any up and down movement at all.

next i took the oil pump apart to inspect it to see if anything stuck in there. and all was clean. here is the battle scar from when the return key sheared last time.

http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb385/corygodden/restoration/022.jpg

then i checked bothe gerotors on each lobe surface and i couldnt get anything bigger than .002 in anywhere. so within the specs of .004

http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb385/corygodden/restoration/021.jpg

also, i wanted to check how far gerotor set extended above the cover. did i understand this right, is this how to check that?

http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb385/corygodden/restoration/023.jpg

i got a measurement of .009 here. fsm says .001-.011 so im good here i think

i used a micrometer(couldnt get the dam thing to read out in inches) to measure both oil feed gerotors cause book says if they are any different to replace both as a set. so on bigger feed gerotor i got 4.564mm and inner i got 4.567mm. dont know the conversion but is that close enough to keep using? fsm says if they are not the same thickness to replace them, does ANY difference mean just like it says or is there a tolerance? also, at key way notch on smaller feed gerotor measures 4.604mm should i just replace the feed side? and where can someone find GOOD set of gerotors? thats what im most worried about.

then i wanted to check the wheels for end play as described in fsm crankcase pg. 3-35 so i set up a dial indicator on the pinion shaft.

http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb385/corygodden/restoration/014.jpg

then i rotated the motor and pulled in and out on pinion shaft and play was between .005 and .006 so i feel that is good. from these procuders i have done, i think that the bottom end is in good shape. is there an other way i should check something?

next thing im gonna do is pull clutch assembly and inspect and try to figure out why i was getting a lot o chatter and some sort of wobble this year and also am going to be going through kick starter parts and finding NOS or good used harley parts to replace my tiwain kickers parts with. i will be giving the kicker slip the boot with the help from dr dicks sticky.

so much to do and i got to get it all done before sturgis next year!!

78ironhead
20th November 2011, 21:15
I hate to say, but whenever something comes apart inside of any engine, it should be completly disassembled and cleaned, cleaned, cleaned. Just a small piece of metal/aluminum will travel and wreck any surface it goes through.

DirtyCory
20th November 2011, 21:23
I hate to say, but whenever something comes apart inside of any engine, it should be completly disassembled and cleaned, cleaned, cleaned. Just a small piece of metal/aluminum will travel and wreck any surface it goes through.

i agree and i am going to disassembel whole thing. im just seeing where things are at this point. re reading my post i see it does sound like i plan on leaving bottom end alone, but i do not. im gonna clean and inspect it all. i am waiting to gather the xlch coversion parts before removing the bottom end from frame in order to test fit all parts and figure out what im gonna have to do to get mounts squred away. speaking of, maybe you can help me 78ironhead? im looking for a couple of detail pics with some measurements for some frame problems i got. first, oil tank mount is gone!

http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb385/corygodden/restoration/030.jpg

lookin for a measurement from bottom of shock an strutt mount part of frame to center of hole on oil tank mount.

also lookin for center to center of hole on the seat mount that was cut out...and also the width on the top of the mount. it appears that the top width of the seat bracket may have been a little wider than the bottom...?

http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb385/corygodden/restoration/031.jpg

and last, this area...some measurements of what im missing...

http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb385/corygodden/restoration/033.jpg

the diagram in the FSM does not specify these things, so im lookin for anyone that got a 78(77?) that has there bike apart enough to help me out here that would be awsome. trying to gather as much information as possible to take with me to my frame/welder guy when i go...
no short cuts this time. like i said, gettin this 78 back to the way it should be.:tour thanks

hcrashster
21st November 2011, 01:07
The 77 and 78 use an aluminum bearing cage so side to side swing is not an indication of bearing/ shaft wear. I was told that the max up-down or in -out is .0005. This is virtually NO play so you should be good on the rods.
Gerotor is .003 of a millimeter difference on the feeds? That small of a difference could change .003 depending on where you measure. I would use as is.
I just pulled my motor today, as I have the same type of chatter, fluttering in the clutch that you have. I can feel it in the clutch lever and feel it when clutch is released. I"M hoping it's not the hub bearing but won't know till inspected.

hcrashster
21st November 2011, 01:07
Have 78 frame stripped. What all info do you need?

DirtyCory
21st November 2011, 01:14
basically everything from post 16. and then i will take more pics of other holes that im wondering if they are factory. more pics tomorrow.

hcrashster
21st November 2011, 01:20
I'll see if I can get you the info with pics within a couple of hours. The frame is at my buddies house. I can';t make you a promise on frame originality as i don't remember if this one was hacked on or not.

hcrashster
21st November 2011, 02:35
http://i1209.photobucket.com/albums/cc390/SeanHerron2112/DSCN0046.jpg

http://i1209.photobucket.com/albums/cc390/SeanHerron2112/DSCN0045.jpg

http://i1209.photobucket.com/albums/cc390/SeanHerron2112/DSCN0044.jpg

http://i1209.photobucket.com/albums/cc390/SeanHerron2112/DSCN0043.jpg

http://i1209.photobucket.com/albums/cc390/SeanHerron2112/DSCN0042.jpg

http://i1209.photobucket.com/albums/cc390/SeanHerron2112/DSCN0041.jpg

http://i1209.photobucket.com/albums/cc390/SeanHerron2112/DSCN0040.jpg

http://i1209.photobucket.com/albums/cc390/SeanHerron2112/DSCN0039.jpg

Hope these help you out. If you need more measurements let me know. Picture 4 and 5 are seat mount. Width is 2.5 inches.

DirtyCory
21st November 2011, 02:54
cool man thanks! perfect pictures. ill print out most these to take with the frame to get fixed. the seat mount looks different then i thought it would. i thought it was up higher. maybe one more 78 guy could post a pic of just the seat mount?? i seen in the on pic of the oil tank mount shot from the back of it that there is a plate welded to the back of the two down tubes where your circuit breakers mount. i knew mine didnt have that, so i looked and sure shit, they cut that out of there too. i can feel the left overs. thanks a lot for the pictures. helps a lot. one more measurement i forgot to ask about was the distance from the rear gas tank mount to the front gas tank mount? when ever you get a chance.

hcrashster
21st November 2011, 03:10
May be a problem with the gas tank mounts. Were they welded on tabs or just mounting holes drilled thru the backbone? No tabs in Pic. 1 or 2. The PO may have hacked since this bike had a quick bob tank.

I know seat mount is correct as the seat that was on the bike was religious stock. Very Holy.

DirtyCory
21st November 2011, 03:16
so, what you gonna be doing with that seat.....lol jk

hcrashster
21st November 2011, 03:25
Seat is long gone. Looking at the pics, I see a hole thru the backbone in front of seatmount. There is another hole below the neck. May be talking bull crap, but were these tanks mounts? I may have another 78 seat unless stolen by one of my numerous dead beat friends.

IronMick
21st November 2011, 10:23
... There is another hole below the neck. ... were these tanks mounts? ...

The big hole thru the neck is for the Roadster/SuperGlide tank. The smaller hole thru the web is for the Peanut/King tanks.

GA_Ironhead
21st November 2011, 11:19
so on bigger feed gerotor i got 4.564mm and inner i got 4.567mm. dont know the conversion but is that close enough to keep using?

There are 25.4 mm per inch. To convert mm to inches, divide the measurement by 25.4.

0.003 mm / 25.4 mm/1 inch = 0.00011811023622 inches

Lots of online converters to do the task: https://www.google.com/#sclient=psy-ab&hl=en&safe=off&source=hp&q=convert+measurements

DR DICK
21st November 2011, 22:16
hey dirt.

as from factory your missing oil tank mount would there but not used on xlch. that was for the top electric start tank mount.

brucstoudt
21st November 2011, 23:47
you might want to reconsider the kick only conversion,my, bike is kick only from the factory.if i, had an electric start,i would never give up that option.oncce that kicker slips,your all done kicking for that day.now you need to find another way to get home!

DirtyCory
22nd November 2011, 00:28
you might want to reconsider the kick only conversion,my, bike is kick only from the factory.if i, had an electric start,i would never give up that option.oncce that kicker slips,your all done kicking for that day.now you need to find another way to get home!

i will always have all the parts that i need to switch it back over when the time comes. but for now, i will convert to kick only. i love the clean look of the CH. before all this, i had both. as far as the kicker slipping, i plan on rebuilding it carefully with original HD parts with the help from the sticky giving kicker slip the boot. im sure if i install everything properly with quality parts, i will have a reliable kicker. i have had the kicker slip before and it sucks but i have never had the dreaded sportster knee or any injury or even a ouch at all. i had it kick back on me when i first installed the kicker. that flung me a little bit...lol i was just bein a puss. since then, i just stand all my 225lbs ass up on it and just go for it. never had a problem since. and as finding another way home, it can always be push started or roll it down a hill if lucky enough to be near one:tour

DirtyCory
25th November 2011, 03:23
so i pulled the clutch apart and when through what i think is everything. so here is my clutch inspection. inner and outer springs are up to spec. 2 5/16 for inner and 2 1/2 on outer so im good there. clutch steels all look about the same and have areas of discoloration and light scratches

http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb385/corygodden/restoration/010-1.jpg
http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb385/corygodden/restoration/011-1.jpg
and all the frictons look the same too. i just replace all this last winter and it has probly only 1500-2000 miles on the clutch.
http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb385/corygodden/restoration/012-1.jpg

clutch spacers are a little off too. i can see some mushrooming on the ends of a few of them. standard legth is 1.530 i got only one at that legth and the rest go down to 1.525 is that enough a difference to matter? and also, i understand there are different lenghts of spacers available. what are these lengths and when is it nessasary to use a diffent length spacer?


so then i get to the clutch shell and the first thing i notice is that rachet plate on the back of the shell is a little bit loose.(my fault) other things, shell bearing to me seems i should replace it. pretty loose. and also, the clutch shell is somewhat out of round. i had it on the shaft so i gave it a spin and i could see a up and down as the shell was spinning so i rigged this up,
http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb385/corygodden/restoration/014-1.jpg
and i got a .035 dip for about 4 1/2 inches in the shell. also, when just the shell is on the shaft i spin it and it always stops in the same spot. its outa balance. is this something the machine shop can handle or should it be replaced?

thanks

hcrashster
25th November 2011, 04:35
Probably bearing damage is causing the dip and stopping in the same spot.

Hopper
25th November 2011, 04:42
If the runout and stopping in one position are with the clutch disengaged, or with no plates in place, then problem is the clutch basket bearing, most likely.

But if it is with the clutch assembled and clutch in engaged position, then it could be due to trapdoor bearing wear, clutch gear wear, or loose/crooked fit of the clutch hub on the splines etc.

But also the clutch basket where you were running the dial gauge may have just been rough machined at the factory. The only critical dimension is from the bearing to the actual sprocket teeth. And balance, I don't think AMF wasted too much time worrying about that.
But if you are worried about it, and it would probably make the bike run smoother, the way to do it would be to put the basket up between centres on a mandrel in a lathe and balance it by drilling holes in the heavy side, somewhere on teh back of the basket where it won't weaken the structure.

DR DICK
25th November 2011, 22:44
. and also, the clutch shell is somewhat out of round. i had it on the shaft so i gave it a spin and i could see a up and down as the shell was spinning so i rigged this up,
and i got a .035 dip for about 4 1/2 inches in the shell. also, when just the shell is on the shaft i spin it and it always stops in the same spot. its outa balance. is this something the machine shop can handle or should it be replaced?

thanks

nearly every 71> drum is out of round. it happens when the back wall of drum gets welded to the tubular sprocket section.

drums made before 75(?) didnt have the beefy ring rite next to ur indicator.
the factory started leaving this material on the open end of drum in order to arrest some of the warping. it worked too. the eariler drums were more prone to this warp.

DirtyCory
8th December 2011, 03:06
well thanks dr dick, i got worried for a minute, i figured someone at some point torqued the hell out of it with some homemade holding tool. i may still try to balance it a lil better though once i educate myself better on how to do so.

so, i havnt been making a whole lot of progress lately just got the frame to the welder today and the cylinders to the machine shop. at the machine shop, we measured the cylinders and im at .040 over and .003 clearance. he thinks he can just clean up the damaged cylinder with a hone, any opinions?? with a max of .004 clearance, do i want to be at the max? but may have to go to .050 over. ill know tomorrow.

so i got the frame in today and after all the request for pics and measurements about details on my frame, i walk in and hes got a 75 there that hes working on...go figure...hes got a good example to go off of i guess.

before i took the frame i laid it over takin some pics and about 2 or 3 oz. of water dumped out of the frame. DR DICK, in my other thread i started when i found i had a cracked frame, you spotted this potential problem before i even knew i had one. well your right about water getting in the frame. good thing i got the bike inside or i probly would have had a busted frame like you told me happend to you. ill make sure to get that hole pluged... anyway, you spoke of a place on the bottom tubes of where to drill drain holes that dont comprimise the frame. im deffinetly interested in doing that. one tube is draining a lil bit. i found this whole in the bottom of the frame..

http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb385/corygodden/032.jpg
http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb385/corygodden/031.jpg

dont know how this happend but its not a drilled hole. it was not there last time i had the bike apart either. no clue

and another thing, does anyone have any clue what these tabs are for on the swing arm??? dont think that they are factory. im thinking im cuttin them off if they are not supposed to be there. unless they have some good use...lol
http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb385/corygodden/033.jpg

DirtyCory
8th December 2011, 03:23
I know seat mount is correct as the seat that was on the bike was religious stock. Very Holy.

well i did a lil more research cause my gut was telling me that it was different. just thought you might like to know what the unmolested seat mount looks like...
http://i1104.photobucket.com/albums/h328/2sparkplugs/Photo_DB565E4A-B4BF-9026-1B93-6572CF16A94A.jpg
but thanks for all the other pics. printed most of them off and took them with my frame.

DR DICK
9th December 2011, 00:56
the red dots are hard to see.
just to the right of text.

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-d05f11oama8/TuFbo9L9hUI/AAAAAAAABvA/HRnIEXOHp_g/s512/032.jpg

DirtyCory
10th December 2011, 03:50
the red dots are hard to see.
just to the right of text.

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-d05f11oama8/TuFbo9L9hUI/AAAAAAAABvA/HRnIEXOHp_g/s512/032.jpg

cool thanks DR DICK. not too hard to see with zoom on 200%....thanks, looks like a good spot. i see why it wouldnt hurt the frame none.

DirtyCory
10th December 2011, 04:00
machine shop can clean my clyinders up by removing .001. thats gonna put me at .004 clearance if i stay at .040 over bore. ive been trying to reasearch what the best piston clearance is for my bike and i been reading... and im seeing that there might be a difference between piston to cylinder clearance and wear limits. can anyone clear this up some for me. the book says the clearance is from .003-.004. the way i understand it, is that .004 is the max clearance recomended. is that correct. if so, then im gonna go to .050 over cause i dont want to be at the limit. ive seen other post that say it can be up to .006. that seems really loose to me. thanks for any advise

ryder rick
10th December 2011, 04:46
Loose is fast!

Don't forged pistons like more clearance?
They grow more?

I would not bore it unless you have to, good OEM cylinders are getting harder and harder to find and imported cylinders are not as good....



Now playing Jamie McLean Band - Crazy About You

DR DICK
10th December 2011, 05:03
machine shop can clean my clyinders up by removing .001. thats gonna put me at .004 clearance if i stay at .040 over bore. ive been trying to reasearch what the best piston clearance is for my bike and i been reading... and im seeing that there might be a difference between piston to cylinder clearance and wear limits. can anyone clear this up some for me. the book says the clearance is from .003-.004. the way i understand it, is that .004 is the max clearance recomended. is that correct. if so, then im gonna go to .050 over cause i dont want to be at the limit. ive seen other post that say it can be up to .006. that seems really loose to me. thanks for any advise


dont sweat the .004 at all.

new factory new fits were .003-.004 for 1000. that was up to 78.

factory said (its in you manual i think) that up to .006 with less than .002 out of round was still tight enuff to reassm with and have no probs.

there is a very good chance that when honed again the bore wont actually end up any bigger at all.

DR DICK
10th December 2011, 06:28
started lookin at your clutch.

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-iVs0EKCFdI8/TuL4Y1cfWJI/AAAAAAAABvE/JeOzav-cBIQ/s640/011-1-1.jpg

when you titen the 6 nylocs the outer pressure plate, spacers, and backing plate with the 6 studs become 1 solid unit. this is the unit that moves inside the clutch when you pull the lever.

the spacers pass thru the oval holes in each steel driven plate.

if the spacers interfere with the free axial movement of the steels, especially during partial engagement, smooth power transfer can be destroyed.

DirtyCory
11th December 2011, 05:25
started lookin at your clutch.

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-iVs0EKCFdI8/TuL4Y1cfWJI/AAAAAAAABvE/JeOzav-cBIQ/s640/011-1-1.jpg

when you titen the 6 nylocs the outer pressure plate, spacers, and backing plate with the 6 studs become 1 solid unit. this is the unit that moves inside the clutch when you pull the lever.

the spacers pass thru the oval holes in each steel driven plate.

if the spacers interfere with the free axial movement of the steels, especially during partial engagement, smooth power transfer can be destroyed.

hey DR, my untrained eye didnt even spot this, so i went back and looked at the rest of my steels and they all (except for a couple in the middle of the stack) had these marks on the oval holes. so how do i stop this from happening. im planning on getting new spacers. few of mine got some mushrooming on the ends and legths are not the same. i probly over tightened them or something. and also, while looking closer at the oval holes, some of them are not completely oval. they dip inside a lil bit in spots and im sure thats not helping matters. could i lightly file these areas so they dont rub anymore? aftermarket clutch frictions and steels. that could be part the problem too. they do say usa on em.

piniongear
17th December 2011, 18:37
I am going to follow this thread, and should I have anything new to offer, I will.
pg

DirtyCory
17th December 2011, 19:29
I am going to follow this thread, and should I have anything new to offer, I will.
pg

cool thanks for the spacer info!

DirtyCory
18th December 2011, 22:11
prob with some am showa tubes is that the valving is crimped into tube bottom. so you cant remove it. so the manufacturer can make those parts like crap. cause you wont ever see their junky workmanship. this means dampning may be comprosmised. thats why you need to check it.

ok, DR DICK ive got my front forks both completely disassembled and i wanna check this valve your talking about.

http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb385/corygodden/021.jpg

ive shined a light down the tubes and i cant tell if anything is wrong with what im looking at. main thing i can see is crud and build up on the bottom. honestly, i dont know what im looking for here. ive tried to get pictures looking down the tubes but i cannot get enough light down the tube to get a clear shot. im puzzled cause it dont really look like there is anything left in there. thanks Doc.

DirtyCory
22nd December 2011, 02:20
DR DICK, got my new pistons in the mail today and ran them to the machine shop quick for a final fit. measured everything up and final piston clearance is at .0045 thats a lil more that i wanted, but i did find it in my book like you said, maximum clearance is .006 so i got a lil ways to go. it should last for quiet a while i would think. also, i have the poundage results for the manley valve springs that i ordered,

OUTER SPRING....

75lbs @ 1 9/32in (valve closed)-------book says, 50-66lbs
175lbs @ 15/16in (valve open)--------book says, 152-168lbs

INNER SPRING....

40lbs @ 1 3/32in (valve closed)-------book says, 30-36lbs
75lbs @ 3/4in (valve open)----------book says, 76-88lbs

not 20% more as they advertise, so thats good. hopefully cam bushing dont suffer too much. to me it just seems inconsistant. especially the (valve open) number on the inner spring. gonna try to figure out percentages if i can get my basic algrebra to click:doh i havnt use it in a long time...lol

hcrashster
22nd December 2011, 06:06
Well, I guess my frame was hacked on some. I'll have to have a little talk with my younger brother.
About your inner springs: Remember, that springs main function is to act as a harmonic dampener and help control valve float at high RPMs. If BOTH inner springs measure at the same rates I would assume that they are designed to compliment the spring rates of the outers. All machine shops that specialize in motor work will have a tester if you want to ease your mind.

By the way, you are building your motor correctly. Check EVERYTHING twice. ANY doubts, get answers before you proceed. And most importantly: CLEAN CLEAN CLEAN. If you can't eat off it, clean some more. :chop Dirt kills motors.

DirtyCory
22nd December 2011, 06:48
when i went to take pistons in today, i also took my new springs and my fsm with the specs for spring pressures. he put each one in there deal there(i dont know the name of the tool....lol) and checked them are corasponding lengths and i stood next to him and recorded results and the numbers posted above are what we came up with. i asked him what he thought and he did not seem to think i needed to even worry about it. he said the pressures will be fine. but they do not specialize in harley by any means, what machine shop does right...so, i guess i trust him, but i trust you guys here a lot more... :)

and btw, thank you, im gonna do everything i can do to get this bike right this time. im using nothing but NOS harley davidson parts. and used oem when its ok to. the manley valve springs were the only aftermarket thing ive bought yet. thats because of yours and DR DICK advise. if you guys trust em, i will not bat an eye. maybe tomorrow ill get around to posting a pic of my pile of NOS stuff ive been getting. i love all the parts in there nice box that is older than me...lol i really get off on that NOS stuff. it sure is hurtin my pocket though...hahaha. thats alright, its just money, right...

i havnt done much cleaning yet, but believe me, i 100% agree. im gonna clean as it goes back together so i only do it once. when i was about 19 i worked a landscaping job. winter time, i was the shop hand and did a lot of learning. boss was an ex heavy equipment machanic and the most anal asshole i ever worked for, but i must say, at the same time, he helped shape me into who i am. anyway, he was all about clean clean clean. i remember gettin ass chewins all the time about neatness and cleanlyness. he sent me home one day cause i was changing the oil in the skid loader and i didnt wipe the dust off of the top of the oil bottle....lol it sunk in deep then, i knew he was serious. ill always remember him telling me you can spot a good mechanic within 15 seconds of walking in his shop. a good mechanic will always have a clean work area. and that theroy has held true every time ive tested it. so, thats what i strive for. and for some reason ive turned out to be quite the anal asshole myself...lol

thanks for the reply hcraster. any input always welcome

DirtyCory

hcrashster
22nd December 2011, 15:57
Ha, Never had a boss like yours but I've met a few like him over the years. Fun, likeable people that you want to crack with a 2x4. Except for work, I'm your average slob so people are amazed how meticulous I can be building a motor. It's a major pain in the butt, but if you want a great engine that is issue free and will last much, much longer than normal you must pay attention to EVERY detail. Engines cost big money and big time so there is no reason to do it half -assed. I was told this by a very good builder years ago. It's plain common sense but you would be amazed at how many people don't follow this simple step and then cry about a gouged bearing or "bad" machine work. I guess that their attitude toward building was incorrect from the get go.

He also told me that "As the builder, YOU are responsible for everything. Measure, cleaning and final assembly. If you don't want that, send the engine out and pay someone else for the head aches". I figure half the fun is doing it yourself and NO ONE touches my bike but me.

Since you are getting hone work done I'll tell you a good method for cleaning the jugs of all the embedded grit from the stones. Get a cone shaped toilet brush with the stiffest bristles you can find. Dawn dish washing soap and WD-40. Clean with COLD water, [ This slows down evaporation and the corresponding flash rust} and wipe down while still wet with the WD. Repeat till a white paper towel shows zero color/ dirt. It may take 5 or 6 tries but that grit has to be removed. Your rings will last longer, seat truer, and some very destructive crap will not be circulating thru the motor. It cannot be over stressed how critical cleaning the cylinders is.

I'd trust Manley anytime, anywhere. They make good, high quality racing components and are pretty much the benchmark for valve train parts. But to quote Ronald Reagan, "Trust, but verify". I'm glad you did cause every now and then the wrong part is in the right box. Big money, Big time, so you check everything.

So far, I'd guess that you are on the right track to a good motor. The attitude and willingness to take the extra step are 99% of a killer engine.

DR DICK
23rd December 2011, 10:38
DR DICK, got my new pistons in the mail today and ran them to the machine shop quick for a final fit. measured everything up and final piston clearance is at .0045 thats a lil more that i wanted, but i did find it in my book like you said, maximum clearance is .006 so i got a lil ways to go. it should last for quiet a while i would think. also, i have the poundage results for the manley valve springs that i ordered,

OUTER SPRING....

75lbs @ 1 9/32in (valve closed)-------book says, 50-66lbs
175lbs @ 15/16in (valve open)--------book says, 152-168lbs

INNER SPRING....

40lbs @ 1 3/32in (valve closed)-------book says, 30-36lbs
75lbs @ 3/4in (valve open)----------book says, 76-88lbs

not 20% more as they advertise, so thats good. hopefully cam bushing dont suffer too much. to me it just seems inconsistant. especially the (valve open) number on the inner spring. gonna try to figure out percentages if i can get my basic algrebra to click:doh i havnt use it in a long time...lol

.0045 is way ok.

hd says .003 is min. .006 is max.

think about the .006. the guys who designed, prototyped, and manufactured every single iron bike out there, tell you its not yet ness to buy the replacement parts they sell. they say to put your bike back together.

weird.

they seem to want your old bike to keep goin. how they gonna sell u a new bike, or new parts, if the old one still good to go at .006.

a-holes like that wont be in business long.

the valve springs.
being wary of using stiffer springs isnt about bushing wear. its about the cheesy cam cover not havin enuff strength to keep the bushes held fast.

71-76 is the worst. 77 up got better. but they sure aint the same caliber as 70< were. just compare the bosses that hold the bushes.

iron motors dont suffer from valve float. they do suffer from broken springs though.

stronger springs arent required. better ones are.

DR DICK
26th December 2011, 15:20
use the manley springs.

fork valving:
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-rPR1bZ5QtUo/TvdIr4NHMpI/AAAAAAAABxQ/9q6HIPur-5o/s512/021.jpg

DirtyCory
6th January 2012, 23:40
forks are back together and feel to me to be ok. now on to the next:

went to flush motor in parts wash tank and i got a lot more very fine shavings of metal that i wanted to see. mostly a shiny metalicy stuff and some copperish colored shavings too. when i got done washing, i can still see bits of stuff on the bottom of the cases. so, im gonna go with the split. my gut says do it, so im doing it. so im going to split the cases and tapping ALL OVER AND AROUND the cases where ever i can get my rubber hammer. these dam things are seal TIGHT!!! i cannot get them to budge. how hard should i have to hit the cases? FSM says to tap all around and ive hit them harder than a tap for sure, but im nervous to hit them to hard. what is the right action to take here?

cory

DR DICK
7th January 2012, 01:44
forks are back together and feel to me to be ok. now on to the next:

went to flush motor in parts wash tank and i got a lot more very fine shavings of metal that i wanted to see. mostly a shiny metalicy stuff and some copperish colored shavings too. when i got done washing, i can still see bits of stuff on the bottom of the cases. so, im gonna go with the split. my gut says do it, so im doing it. so im going to split the cases and tapping ALL OVER AND AROUND the cases where ever i can get my rubber hammer. these dam things are seal TIGHT!!! i cannot get them to budge. how hard should i have to hit the cases? FSM says to tap all around and ive hit them harder than a tap for sure, but im nervous to hit them to hard. what is the right action to take here?

cory

well seems ur not the average hd owner. they just get a bigger hammer.

holdin off is smart.

first thing to know is that the lower run of left case is fragile. see how thin it is by the 3 nut and bolt area.

and did you get all the bolts out? the one in primary cavity behind rear cyl?

the allen on right side?

all rear motor mount fastners?

try this.

take ur clutch clutch spring compression tool and screw it directly to pri gask surf. dont use the long standoffs. find a pc of wood that gets put in trans compartment that the screw of tool will push on. reverse puller. usually they come right apart but if stubborn with some pressure applied in trans area tap rite case at gen mount. not at far end of gen mount but near the crankshaft as poss.

if this dont work stop.

DirtyCory
7th January 2012, 03:00
well seems ur not the average hd owner. they just get a bigger hammer.

holdin off is smart.

first thing to know is that the lower run of left case is fragile. see how thin it is by the 3 nut and bolt area.

and did you get all the bolts out? the one in primary cavity behind rear cyl?

the allen on right side?

all rear motor mount fastners?

try this.

take ur clutch clutch spring compression tool and screw it directly to pri gask surf. dont use the long standoffs. find a pc of wood that gets put in trans compartment that the screw of tool will push on. reverse puller. usually they come right apart but if stubborn with some pressure applied in trans area tap rite case at gen mount. not at far end of gen mount but near the crankshaft as poss.

if this dont work stop.

alright, i think ive got all bolts out. i got the 2 front that go with the front mounts, i got the 3 from left side at base of cylindes including one inside primary, i got the 3 on the bottom of the case in the fragile area your speaking of, and i got the 4 on right side from tranny area including the allen bolt and the top 2 on the rear mount and the other 3 on the side of the mount. sound right? i dont see any other bolt anywhere.

ok, ill round up the stuff i need to try the method you mentioned above. ill report back as soon as i try it and see what happens... thanks dr dick. my indie must be the average HD owner too( well he is drunk 75% of the time:laugh) he did tell me to get a bigger hammer:laugh:laugh,and just keep hitting them untill they split. i didnt listen though...good thing. hopefully i report back telling ya i got em.. thanks cory

DirtyCory
7th January 2012, 18:37
made the tool your talking bout real quick this morning and gave it a try,

http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb385/corygodden/003-2.jpg

few cranks on the pusher bolt and a few hits with the mallot and presto!!!!!!!!!!!

http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb385/corygodden/004.jpg
http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb385/corygodden/006-1.jpg

man thanks DR DICK, that was just too easy!!! now i got to make another tool to carefully press the wheels out of the left case and time to start cleanin. right when i pulled it apart, i seen several other flakes of metal. about 7 or 8 2-3mm sized peices on the very bottom. probably from the valve spring cause they stuck to the magnet. thanks again, like i said, that was just EASY!!!

cory

hcrashster
7th January 2012, 18:59
Slick. Going to remember that one. I've never had cases really fight back hard but that is an excellent little trick there Dr. Dick.

DirtyCory
8th January 2012, 07:46
got to looking close at the cases for any cracks or repairs done. it does not appear that they have ever been welded on before. but they will now. i found a very small crack on the left case down by the primary plug. very minor i think, but im gonna have it fix while im at it. it looks like a bolt that was too long was put in there at one point and i think thats what caused it. and also, is that a "heli coil" insert in the drain plug hole? ive never seen one, so i dont know. its steel and from what i understand, factory plug was just threaded into the aluminum?

http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb385/corygodden/001-3.jpg

cory

nikki
8th January 2012, 18:35
got to looking close at the cases for any cracks or repairs done. it does not appear that they have ever been welded on before. but they will now. i found a very small crack on the left case down by the primary plug. very minor i think, but im gonna have it fix while im at it. it looks like a bolt that was too long was put in there at one point and i think thats what caused it. and also, is that a "heli coil" insert in the drain plug hole? ive never seen one, so i dont know. its steel and from what i understand, factory plug was just threaded into the aluminum?

http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb385/corygodden/001-3.jpg

coryyes on the steel insert of some sort in the pirmary drain hole . Nikki

DR DICK
8th January 2012, 19:38
http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb385/corygodden/001-3.jpg

cory


dollars to doughnuts the cause of this is from silicone sealer filling the bottom of blind threaded hole. when screw gets titened ithe hydrulic pressure bursts the cases around the hole. unfortunitly its all too common.

if desired you can drive wheels out without a pusher. be careful. goto my 84" teardown thread to see how.

if you do use a pusher take care not to push inside the tapered center hole on sprk shaft. press on the flat face of shaft.

what you will need to make is a a set of tubular spacers to pull wheels back into cases for reassm.

DR DICK
8th January 2012, 19:46
dirt are those cam bearings in backwards?

the name should be towards the camchest.

DirtyCory
8th January 2012, 20:52
dirt are those cam bearings in backwards?

the name should be towards the camchest.

well, im not sure exactly....here is a better picture of the camchest. i hope there in right....:doh....i dont know, what do you see here?

http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb385/corygodden/007-1.jpg

lettering is deff facing out... are they backwards?

DirtyCory
8th January 2012, 21:09
ok DR DICK the next: this is what i made to push the wheels out........ good thing i did not go any farther yet because i WAS set up to push on the center hole on the shaft. good thing i read your post first. heres what i got.......

http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb385/corygodden/006-2.jpg

http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb385/corygodden/004-1.jpg

ive got the steel plate i made parallel to the case at all three bolting points within 1/32".

http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb385/corygodden/003-3.jpg

does this setup look like it would be ok to move forward with? except that i need to adjust it a lil bit to push on the flat area of the shaft?

i looked at you 84" tear down thread. first let me say, i am in mo way shape or form questioning your method, i trust your opinion. its just that everything i have read about getting the wheels out says not to use a hammer or it may throw off the flywheel alignment. or is this just the method you use if you plan on disassembling the wheels? i was not planning on taking the wheels apart cause i believe my rod bearings are good. and when i last had motor apart, the wheels were true down to .001 or less, i dont want that to change. i did not perform the trueing of the wheels but i did witness it when i was done. i plan on checking them again, but is that something that will normally change. thanks DR DICK.

DR DICK
9th January 2012, 00:13
cam bearing are correct.

the hammer thing isnt as scarry as it looks. the force terminates at the bearing shaft interface. personaly i use press. the hammer meathod is usefull for the guy who doesnt have a boatload of professional tools. thats the reasoning behind me puttin it out there. the blows needed to free the wheels are surprising light. the soft hammer absorbs most of the shock. the wheels need to be able to withstand forces MUCH greater in service.

ur set up looks good but for 1 thing. get the point of pressure screw out of there. pushing on that center hole can damage it resulting poor alignment in the trueing stand. push flat on the face of shaft. little bit of penetrating oil where shaft is gonna push thru bearing is a help. there will be a spacer between bearings once wheels are free. dont lose it.

DirtyCory
9th January 2012, 00:24
ok, sounds good, thanks. ill get a different, flat pusher bolt and figure something out to protect the center hole. thanks

cory

brucstoudt
9th January 2012, 00:30
definitely a steel threaded insert.heli-coils look like a springtwisted in there.wish the factory would have used these,mines stripped and it wont back out for repair either.s.o.b.

DirtyCory
9th January 2012, 00:56
alright, got the wheels out, just took a dfferent bolt with a flat end and and put a nut underneath of it to go around the center hole. worked good. now my next queston. should the bearing that is left in the case feel like they are loose as hell with out the shaft in them? i can move it side to side quite a bit.

cory

brucstoudt
9th January 2012, 01:09
you could just stick a piece of brass stock between the puller rod you have now and the shaft,and crank away.doesnt even have to be brass.

brucstoudt
9th January 2012, 01:12
oops too late!

brucstoudt
9th January 2012, 01:19
i,suggest replacing the bearings on all disassembled parts,including the cam bearings.why come back to diassemble the whole thing and do it later? some wise person once said,if your gonna do something,do it right. any idea who that person is?

DirtyCory
9th January 2012, 01:32
i,suggest replacing the bearings on all disassembled parts,including the cam bearings.why come back to diassemble the whole thing and do it later? some wise person once said,if your gonna do something,do it right. any idea who that person is?

haha... i dont know who that is....:tour im sure you are right. i might as well replace them. also, im training my feel and eye at the same time, thats why i ask. thanks

hotrodralph
9th January 2012, 02:08
long list of stuff to do to this bike this year. its time to get it back to the way it should be. im going to be getting rid of all of the aftermarket parts that i can and replacing them with NOS parts or good used harley parts. hoping the motor is all good except for the pistons that i will have to replace witch i will show later. im going to try to put the bike mostly back to stock except for the handle bars, seat, and i am going to convert my XLH to kick only.

well, here is my winter work shop this year...
http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb385/corygodden/restoration/039-1.jpg
http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb385/corygodden/restoration/040.jpg
and the basics for now
http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb385/corygodden/restoration/041.jpg

i tore the top end off today after work and i wasnt happy what i found. things dont look the best. ive been nursing an intake leak(for the last time too, will get to that later in thread)since i got back from sturgis. i wanted to make it the rest of the season. so i had been playing with carb to get a richer mix to try to make up for the intake leak and i guess i really had it too rich.:doh big time carbon build up.
http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb385/corygodden/restoration/043.jpg
http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb385/corygodden/restoration/044.jpg

but heres the worst part. this is nasty
http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb385/corygodden/restoration/050.jpg
at some point, something come down the drain hole in the cylinder and hung up and pretty much :censor ed the piston.

and this is why i think that
http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb385/corygodden/restoration/051.jpg

cylinders dont look the best but they are not bad. im hoping that they can just be honed cause these cylinders are already at .040
http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb385/corygodden/restoration/042.jpg
http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb385/corygodden/restoration/053.jpg
http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb385/corygodden/restoration/052.jpg

still got lots more to do! here is the begining! this is gonna be a long thread!:tour

What are you going to do about that cylinder. The exact same thing happened to me, but it was a valve guide seal that tore apart and did the damage. My piston and cylinder looks identical to yours. I replaced the jugs but still have the damaged ones. Can they be fixed? How? Thanks.

DirtyCory
9th January 2012, 02:34
What are you going to do about that cylinder. The exact same thing happened to me, but it was a valve guide seal that tore apart and did the damage. My piston and cylinder looks identical to yours. I replaced the jugs but still have the damaged ones. Can they be fixed? How? Thanks.

i took them to my local machine shop and they were able to clean them up by removing .001" from them with a hone and they are ready to roll now. did not have to over bore anymore. just clean up hone job and at the same time fitted each new pistons to each cylinder. for a wopping total of $40. good deal i thought, much cheaper than new ones. but its good to have an extra set cause oem cyliders are olny getting more and more rare.

DirtyCory
9th January 2012, 03:11
ur set up looks good but for 1 thing. get the point of pressure screw out of there. pushing on that center hole can damage it resulting poor alignment in the trueing stand. push flat on the face of shaft. little bit of penetrating oil where shaft is gonna push thru bearing is a help. there will be a spacer between bearings once wheels are free. dont lose it.

well, before i decided to stop ealier with my pusher set up, i did get one good crank on the shaft with the rounded screw that i had on my contraption.:doh i didnt feel good about what i had going on, thats when i stopped :censor:censor:censor, i JUST noticed this.......:doh:censor

http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb385/corygodden/012-1.jpg

is that enough? shit, i only had about 1/2 a turn or less on it, but i pushed pretty hard on the wrench. the inside tapered hole still looks good but maybe that dont mater at this point. i guess if i screwed up, nows the time to fix it. it looks minor to me, but i have an untrained eye.... i hope i didnt do something stupid...

brucstoudt
9th January 2012, 22:56
some bearing play can be taken up with oversize rollers depending on the type of bearing,check f.s.m.for details.wanted to mention this yesterdaybut lost my train of thought with the name that person question.

DirtyCory
10th January 2012, 03:16
started polishing cases today..... tell the difference....lol

http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb385/corygodden/003-4.jpg
http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb385/corygodden/002-4.jpg

lot more to do!

DR DICK
10th January 2012, 04:02
well, before i decided to stop ealier with my pusher set up, i did get one good crank on the shaft with the rounded screw that i had on my contraption.:doh i didnt feel good about what i had going on, thats when i stopped :censor:censor:censor, i JUST noticed this.......:doh:censor

http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb385/corygodden/012-1.jpg

is that enough? shit, i only had about 1/2 a turn or less on it, but i pushed pretty hard on the wrench. the inside tapered hole still looks good but maybe that dont mater at this point. i guess if i screwed up, nows the time to fix it. it looks minor to me, but i have an untrained eye.... i hope i didnt do something stupid...


dont freak. aint the end of the world.

you prob didnt do it yesterday.

lots of time when pullin motor sprk the same mistake gets made.

this is one of those learn from screwing up things. from today on u will never push in needed center hole again will ya. mileage- the more you got the more you understand.

center hole not needed unless going back into true stand.

clean rest of hole to see if area farther down is still good. can allways relive fu area with die grinder so just good area is gonna be in contact with truing stand center.

if an when wheels come apart next time hole can be fixed.

if you wanna see how true wheels are now:

pull motor sprk seal from left case so you can remove the 2nd timken cone bearing.

cone is part that presses over shaft. cup is part that stays pressed in case bore. full timken assy is 2 cups with a spacer/snapring between them in case. and 2 cones with a center spacer that press over shaft.

case now has just cups and cup spacer. place case on bench pri down. use some blocks to hold case high enuff off bench for footpeg stud to clear.

drop wheels with the one cone thats still on shaft into position in case. drop right case on. wheels will spin now. put in a few case bolts to hold every thing as 1 pc.

rig up your indicator to pick up runout on the .561dia surf of pinion shaft that the pinion bushing in the cam cover surrounds. pickup shaft of ind will be parallel with cam gask surf.

rotate wheels and read runout. it not the real runout though. cause of play in pinion bearing in case. with wheel stationary you will be able to move ind by push pull on pinion shaft. as wheel rotate heavy side of wheels moves shaft inside bearing.

so to get better read cock cases about 1/2 way to vertical and repeat wheel rotation. this will take flyweight oscillation out of the picture.

there are no dumb questions when your dealin with motor building the first few times

DirtyCory
10th January 2012, 06:36
dont freak. aint the end of the world.

you prob didnt do it yesterday.

lots of time when pullin motor sprk the same mistake gets made.

this is one of those learn from screwing up things. from today on u will never push in needed center hole again will ya. mileage- the more you got the more you understand.

center hole not needed unless going back into true stand.

clean rest of hole to see if area farther down is still good. can allways relive fu area with die grinder so just good area is gonna be in contact with truing stand center.

if an when wheels come apart next time hole can be fixed.

if you wanna see how true wheels are now:

pull motor sprk seal from left case so you can remove the 2nd timken cone bearing.

cone is part that presses over shaft. cup is part that stays pressed in case bore. full timken assy is 2 cups with a spacer/snapring between them in case. and 2 cones with a center spacer that press over shaft.

case now has just cups and cup spacer. place case on bench pri down. use some blocks to hold case high enuff off bench for footpeg stud to clear.

drop wheels with the one cone thats still on shaft into position in case. drop right case on. wheels will spin now. put in a few case bolts to hold every thing as 1 pc.

rig up your indicator to pick up runout on the .561dia surf of pinion shaft that the pinion bushing in the cam cover surrounds. pickup shaft of ind will be parallel with cam gask surf.

rotate wheels and read runout. it not the real runout though. cause of play in pinion bearing in case. with wheel stationary you will be able to move ind by push pull on pinion shaft. as wheel rotate heavy side of wheels moves shaft inside bearing.

so to get better read cock cases about 1/2 way to vertical and repeat wheel rotation. this will take flyweight oscillation out of the picture.

there are no dumb questions when your dealin with motor building the first few times

ok, thanks DR DICK. now that you say it, i have pushed on that hole before, more than a couple times...:doh....while removing sprocket. live n learn is right. ill get the hole cleaned up and see what it looks like. the puller i got that i use to take the sprocket off doesnt have a point on it, just rounded top so i dont think i ever got inside of there. just on the lip some. and you are right, I WILL NEVER PUSH ON IT AGAIN. im gonna finish cleaning cases tomorrow and then ill get set up to check true. i do wanna see where theyre at now.

i also took a digital calipar and checked the wheels from outside edge to outside edge in like 8 different spots all around. i did not get any difference bigger than .001, im sure this is not a correct method. but it did make me feel better that they seem to be good that way. but im gonna set up and do it the way you told me too above. in next post ill tell ya what i find. thanks.

cory

DirtyCory
12th January 2012, 03:38
i got set up today to check runnout.
http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb385/corygodden/019-1.jpg

i first checked with the motor laying down on primary side and i got .003 then i checked with the motor cocked more vertical.

http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb385/corygodden/022-1.jpg

and like this i still got .003 im not too confident in my dial that i have. i only paid $20 for it and im not sure how accurate that it is. im thinking on getting a digital and checking again. but either way, how is .003 clear out there on the end of the pinion shaft? good or bad? i probably shoulda run this test before i took everything apart too. or should the results be the same either way?

thanks cory

DirtyCory
13th January 2012, 05:40
check dial indicator for accuracy: didnt have a cig wrapper to check with. but i dont know why i didnt think to check with my feeler gauge....duh.....lol.....so i check on several different sizes and the indicator appears to be spot on. so the .003 is accurate i think.

now i think my next move is getting my new to me cam cover ready to go. i read it in the manual that the bushings need to be line reamed through the right side case. ive talked to lots of different guys and some say do it and some say its completly not nessesary. the cases are apart so that obviously not the problem. the problem is lack of the proper tools to do so. i tried getting my indie to do it for me, but hes to fricking drunk and dont even wanna make money i guess. maybe ill just grab a case of keystone and take the shit down there and see if i can get him to do then...lol.... i guess i would rather do it the way the manual says to do it. anyway, whats your opinion on this DR DICK.

thanks, cory

DR DICK
13th January 2012, 06:42
lots of different scenerios can happen with the cams/cover.

or every thing could be up to snuff.

1st chek that bushes are still pressed tite into each camcover bore. stick your finger in bushes and look for in/out movement. if cool proceed.

2nd leave cases/wheels together from true check. leave pinion gear off pinion shaft. assm all cams to case just like final assy. dog bones, timing marks aligned, gen idler gear too. no cam shims yet. use new camcover gask. titen all cover screws. check for free rotation by spinin idler thru gen hole. if tite spot is apperant position gear train at snug spot. find offending component fit by slidin each cam and idler back an forth in thier endplays. tite slide fit will start you in the detecting whats happening. also check wheels spin as before cover install to check for pinionshaft/pinion bush alignment.

if still cool:
3rd leaving cover undisturbed on right case, remove case bolts and lift right case off wheels with the cam cover/gear train sill together to case half. flip case over and use your indicator on inner end of each cam journal. measure cam end play and record for each. dont loose the recorded numbers. they can be real handy if you end up wth cover off in future and shims get mixed up. im such an airhead that i allways forget where i put the record. so now i scratch numbers into inside of cam cover.

4th: reassm all like for bind check. with oilpump drive and pinion gear on pinion shaft. titen nut enuff that gears are held fast. line up all timing marks. cover tite. no shims. check free rotation by spinning flywheels. if cool install shims if your gonna use em. check for same free rotation.

if cool set entire gear train aside for final assm later.

post pic of inside of cam cover.

doodah man
13th January 2012, 07:05
gonna be watching the results here, as i have some cam bushing weirdness going on myself.

DirtyCory
13th January 2012, 23:47
well, its gonna be a couple days till my gasket set gets here. i ordered one last monday so, when it gets here, ill be able to proceed with the inspection of the cams. but for now, here is a pic of inside of cover.....bushings all feel good, no movement at all......

http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb385/corygodden/006-3.jpg

also, here is a couple more....maybe you can ease my mind a little and asure this is the right cover. casting numbers match my original cover. side be side, i cannot see any difference. only difference is this new cover has a grease zurk on the break shaft bushing. probably a good thing. ive just seen other ones for earlier models that have a zurk there. probably the right one. just dont hurt to make sure i guess.

http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb385/corygodden/007-2.jpg
http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb385/corygodden/005-2.jpg

thanks, cory

brucstoudt
14th January 2012, 00:57
cory,it helps to have your gaskets on hand,before you put your first wrench on the motor.not trying to sound like a smart ass,but it eliminates the waiting game.this is a very interesting thread,by the way.one of my favorites.

DirtyCory
14th January 2012, 02:24
cory,it helps to have your gaskets on hand,before you put your first wrench on the motor.not trying to sound like a smart ass,but it eliminates the waiting game.this is a very interesting thread,by the way.one of my favorites.

i have top end gaskets and yeah that would a been nice. i did not plan on a complete disassemble. i did at first, then i decided to just flush. nor did i think that i was going to be able find the xlch cam cover that i have. complete disassemble came to mind when i flushed motor and seen more crap come out than i was comfortable with. and as far as waiting, im not in any rush at all. it would be nice to be done by spring time. but if not, its okay with me. i am more concered about dealing with every detail of the build and getting it right. the waiting game just gives me more time to do the homework that i need to do. like i said, no rush here. and thank you for your interest.

cory

DR DICK
14th January 2012, 05:09
looks right to me. 77-78 ch.

is old cover in top mechanical cond or does it have issues that you need to address so new one lasts many miles?

DirtyCory
14th January 2012, 05:18
i believe the old cover is still a good cover. i have never had any problems in the cam chest what so ever. all the bushings are still solid on the old cover as well and dont appear to have much ware.

DirtyCory
14th January 2012, 07:14
getting the oil pump back together so i can have it ready for when i get my gaskets so i can complete the check of the cam case and now i got another issue. when oil pump was disassembled the outer plate seal more less just fell out so i got a new Harley davidson brand outer plate seal. trying to install it into the plate and it WILL NOT seat. i can get it close, but its still easy to get it right back out, very easy. this seal seams to me that it would be importand cause it seems it separtes the return from the feed.

http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb385/corygodden/002-6.jpg

along with this, my other concern that the pump drive keys/pins seem to be short.

http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb385/corygodden/004-3.jpg


any imput would be great.

cory

DirtyCory
14th January 2012, 20:33
well ive come to the conclusion that the seat that the seal lives in on the outer plate of the oil pump is just wore out and the diameter of the seat is just too big to set the seal. i found another seal in the garage from an old James gasket set and got the same results. so, i have another oil pump that has damage and is also worn out so i am taking the outer plate from it and replacing it with the other one. seal set fine in other plate.

here is my concern with the replacement part im using... at one time or another, when the outer plate was placed on top of the spring that it sets on, its alignment was off and was tightened down on the pin that lines everything up and caused damage to the plate when the feed gerotrs rubbed against it. i took some 500 sandpaper and slowly removed the damage. now one part of the plate is .001 thinner that the other side. is this a problem with these pumps?

hcrashster
15th January 2012, 01:40
If it's not affecting gerotor heights or clearances I wouldn't worry about it. Basically what you are doing is blueprinting the pump. Recheck all the specs as you assemble. If good, don't sweat it.

DR DICK
15th January 2012, 15:21
well ive come to the conclusion that the seat that the seal lives in on the outer plate of the oil pump is just wore out and the diameter of the seat is just too big to set the seal. i found another seal in the garage from an old James gasket set and got the same results. so, i have another oil pump that has damage and is also worn out so i am taking the outer plate from it and replacing it with the other one. seal set fine in other plate.

here is my concern with the replacement part im using... at one time or another, when the outer plate was placed on top of the spring that it sets on, its alignment was off and was tightened down on the pin that lines everything up and caused damage to the plate when the feed gerotrs rubbed against it. i took some 500 sandpaper and slowly removed the damage. now one part of the plate is .001 thinner that the other side. is this a problem with these pumps?

im no expert on these pumps.

when you dressed the worn area off plate did you create low spots that you cant detect with the calipers (flatness)? can pressure pass in the lowspots, reducing output to motor?

or did you lay paper on a flat surf and clean up plate that way? meaning that theres no low spots now but plate faces arent parallel?

in thinkin neither of these is too good. may be time to get another one yet.

chevelle
15th January 2012, 16:19
http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb385/corygodden/006-3.jpg



Looks like you glass beaded the inside of the cover.
Im sure your aware, but you cannot clean the inside oil passages too much.
Be sure its CLEAN, 110% media free.
My buddy showed me an engine someone brought him after the owner had some engine parts powdercoated, and all the media was not cleaned out.
He might as well have run lapping compond instead of engine oil.
The damage was nasty....

DirtyCory
15th January 2012, 18:32
im no expert on these pumps.

when you dressed the worn area off plate did you create low spots that you cant detect with the calipers (flatness)? can pressure pass in the lowspots, reducing output to motor?

or did you lay paper on a flat surf and clean up plate that way? meaning that theres no low spots now but plate faces arent parallel?

in thinkin neither of these is too good. may be time to get another one yet.

well, my gut tells me the same. im gonna try to source a new outer plate from my dealer. cause yes, there still is a tiny groove that i did not take completly out cause i didnt want to remove too much material. and i dont think it is flat now. not completly. i was wondering if it would effect the efficiency of the pump, that was my main worry. ive found a complete pump on ebay and bid is only at $10.00 right now, if i can get it for a decent price, im going for it. then, ill have what i need and then some for later.

cory

DirtyCory
15th January 2012, 18:38
Looks like you glass beaded the inside of the cover.
Im sure your aware, but you cannot clean the inside oil passages too much.
Be sure its CLEAN, 110% media free.
My buddy showed me an engine someone brought him after the owner had some engine parts powdercoated, and all the media was not cleaned out.
He might as well have run lapping compond instead of engine oil.
The damage was nasty....

hey chevelle, the cover was like this when i recently got it. it may have been blasted. but thanks for the tip, i will take special care to make sure i get the passage cleaned out good. ill find something i can pull through it back and forth and then rinse it many times. after all im going through to get this right, i sure dont want to screw it up cause i over looked an important deatail. thanks, chime in any time.

cory

piniongear
15th January 2012, 19:44
When I bead blast stuff like cases and (automobile) manifolds I clean them by taking out the cooking stove and set it up on the driveway.
Then I begin boiling water..... 5 gals of it.
While the water is boiling I wash the part(s) with Simple Green
and rinse with a pressure hose.
The with the water at a full boil, I place the parts in a small washtub and pour in the boiling water completely submerging the parts. This gets aluminum clean!

But even so, it is best to try to keep media out of where you do not want it to go by using tape.
I am sure with a good cleaning this timing cover is going to be just fine.
pg

The Whammer
15th January 2012, 23:31
Great pics thread DC! The bike is going to look great! Keep em coming.

DirtyCory
16th January 2012, 18:54
When I bead blast stuff like cases and (automobile) manifolds I clean them by taking out the cooking stove and set it up on the driveway.
Then I begin boiling water..... 5 gals of it.
While the water is boiling I wash the part(s) with Simple Green
and rinse with a pressure hose.
The with the water at a full boil, I place the parts in a small washtub and pour in the boiling water completely submerging the parts. This gets aluminum clean!

But even so, it is best to try to keep media out of where you do not want it to go by using tape.
I am sure with a good cleaning this timing cover is going to be just fine.
pg


hey PG, sounds like a good idea, only one question, will this cause anything to be able to warp at all. i understand that in operation the temperatures get just as high if not higher than boiling water, but it happens slower than that i would think. just a thought. thanks

piniongear
16th January 2012, 19:43
No, there is no problem with warping. Metal expands equally in all directions and shrinks back the same way.
The parts will not warp.

I also clean my carbs with a carb cleaner soak overnight, then the carb body and parts get the boiling water rinse the next morning.

I do the metal prep for painting the same way.
Prep with metal conditioner (acid bath) then rinse with hot or boiling water. Prime soon to prevent rust.
This gets metal clean which is out intent here.
pg

DirtyCory
18th January 2012, 21:59
DR DICK, well i finally got my gaskets and started checking the cam fit in new cover. much to my surprise. with all cams installed, spinning idle gear through genny hole, the feel is consistant all the way through. very little to no resistance when spinning. spins easily and i cannot identify any tight spots.

wheels feel easy to spin....but, there does seem to be a mild tight spot at very bottom of stroke. what i mean by that, well with no cover intalled, when i spin wheels and let go at bottom of stroke, they will come up on there own. witch i would call normal cause of the counter weight. just gravity doing its thing. with cover on,(no pinion gear yet) it will hang up at very bottom. but very lightly it seems. with a little bump, they will come back up on there own. what is the best way to deal with this. (GOING TO TRY TO ATTACH A VIDEO) dont mind the background noise...lol... my 2 year old was giving her mom a hard time....lol

006-4.mp4 video by corygodden - Photobucket

after i felt this tight spot, i reinstalled the original cover in place that i have been running for at least 5000 miles. and i performed the same test for feel. the original cover feels to me to be almost exactly the same as far as the way the cams feel spinning them through the genny hole and the way the wheels feel. i cannot feel any difference. so maybe this mild tight spot is due to the somewhat normal pinion shaft runnout?? to me, i think everything is okay, but i would rather have your opinion on it.

thanks, cory

DR DICK
19th January 2012, 02:41
ok i see where your at.

two things to look at.

1st chances are that the tilt of the motor MAY be introducing a false result. lay motor dead flat with pri side down or increace the tilt till its closer to pri down. because the left side of wheel assm is located by tapered timken and you only are rotating on 1 side of bearing taper, the wheels may be 'sliding downhill' in the taper as you rotate, resulting in misalignment. you can check with ind if wheel are walking to the right by checkin to see if face of sprk shaft stays in position relitive to cases.

if you go dead flat pri down of course no sliding down the taper will occur.

2nd when you retest if you still feel there is a snug spot do this; move wheels to tite spot. loosen and retiten cam cover. this may allow cover to shift to a better align. then check again. also put brake shaft in and make sure it dont bind. any bent or misaligned shaft can force cover out of correct position.

this is one of the crappier things with the 1 pin (71up) amf design.
that the cover isnt regestered positivly to case.
so each on/off can result in a different align.
it for this reason that line reaming new bushes is kinda hit and miss.
how do you know the reamed align is gonna be the same align when reinstalled on bike?

let us know what you find.

DirtyCory
19th January 2012, 20:24
DR DICK, so i checked for the wheels sliding down hill and you were exactly right. that is exactly what they were doing. so, with the motor laying dead flat on the primary side, i could not detect that there was any tight spots.

so just to satisfy my curiosity, i started completely over with the testing for feel and i got this:

http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb385/corygodden/005-3.jpg

turns out that i was not thorough enough with my preliminary "feel" testing. i can get the wheels to stay in one spot at the very bottom of the stroke with no cover on. and i have quite a bit more tilt to the motor than what i had in the video i posted above and i set up indicator so i could get enough tilt to know if the wheels were sliding on the taper. ive got enough tilt now that they are not moving now. so, i think that i have the same feel with cover on and off.

i was wondering back when i removed the cam cover, in the manual it says to pull it evenly off of the dowel pins. the manual didnt specify that that later years only had one. now it makes sence. it makes perfect sence why the fit would not be as true with only one pin. i wonder why they did that, i wonder how much they could have actually saved be gettin rid of dowel. dam AMF....lol i gotta get that real sportster(tin cover) after i get done with this one...lol

so, im thinking that im good to go. now i just got to do the last check and assemble all shims and piniongear and oil pump and check it that way. (step 4 in your previos post #81) then i think, just again to satisfy my curiostiy im gonna do all this again once i fit the wheel back into the left case with the new bearings and see if i get the same results.

thank you, cory

ryder rick
19th January 2012, 21:18
They only did one pin because the crank is the other pin.

Adding a second pin will create a third fixed point that has to line up,
Lining up 3 points is very difficult when only 2 are needed.
Lining up the 3 points with out the crank installed is not possible.

DirtyCory
21st January 2012, 06:44
a little change of pace here.....CAN YOU SAY NEW OLD STOCK........

http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb385/corygodden/004-4.jpg

http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb385/corygodden/005-4.jpg

http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb385/corygodden/001-7.jpg

i got the good stuff!!!!!!!!!! have more used oem too. but these are the coolest....lol

hcrashster
21st January 2012, 09:53
Holy Moley. What did you do, rob Clete down at Old Dude Cycle?

DirtyCory
22nd January 2012, 02:25
Holy Moley. What did you do, rob Clete down at Old Dude Cycle?

:laugh:laugh:laugh, no, i didnt rob anyone, i think they robbed me:D been gathering stuff for about 3 months. mostly off ebay and few other places. Top Secret HD dealer too....:banana....

DirtyCory
23rd January 2012, 10:37
ok, enough of the change of pace....lol.... anyone got the tool used to pull the flywheels back into the left case that you can take a picture of? that way i got an idea of what i got to make. thanks EDIT: spoke to soon, there is a nice homemade tool thread on this forum... :)

DirtyCory
26th January 2012, 01:51
yo...DR DICK...ok, so i got a set up made to put this bearing back in place. still gotta give everything one last cleaning and then im ready to go with the reassembly. well the bottom end anyway. still waiting on the machine shop to glass bead my heads and cylinders. hopefully in next week or two.

anyway, so what do you think of this set up and do you see any potential problems with what i got? i have to ask after my last tool i made...lol... tubular setup i have made is sized to press on inner part of bearing only. also, tube spacer i have was cut with a pipe cutter tool, so i think its as square or true as i can get it. and the nut extention is 2 nuts welded together while they were both on the bolt so they are straight with one an other.

http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb385/corygodden/001-8.jpg

http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb385/corygodden/002-8.jpg


and also, i read in the FSM on assembling crankcase and and it is very vague in this step. so is there anything i should watch for or anything special i need to know before i proceed with this? i was talkin with another guy and he said i need to check backlash within the spacer. the way he explained it did not make any sence to me. can you clearify when you get a chance?

thanks,

cory

DR DICK
27th January 2012, 05:39
lots of things to do yet.

quests:
1) timken. did you remove the outer cups from the case?
1a)did you start to remove cups then decide to leave them alone?
1b) check cups that they dont rotate. no tool ness, use ur fingers.
ur checking that the press fit hasnt dissapeared
2) pinion bear. did you move either inner orouter from the old pos?
3) cam needle bears in case. have or are you gonna mess with them?

to do:
1)chech that pri drain plug for leak. compressed air on one side, soapy water other side. bubbles?
2) check that every screw/ bolt/stud goes into its hole. and that when litely bottomed in hole the 'reveal length' is shorter than the boss length on mating part. pick all sealer from bottom of all holes. check timing plug too.
3) set cam end play now if your gonna shim. much easier when cases are split.
4) rear motor mt. check for cracks. check that lower thread inserts are in good condition.
5) check fit of rear mt to frame. can be problematic on engine install. scrape paint from 4 frame surfs where mount butts. leaving the lower bolts on work bench install mount to frame. just 2 top bolts. titen tops. will lowers catch threads and titen like this?
this is how its gonna go when you do install for real. the machined lower surf on mount will sit on little shelf machined into the frame casting. then the weight of motor will pivot mount away from top rear frame surfs. the 2 upper bolts go in 1st and get titened to support motor in correct position. then the lowers will go in.

your tool:
do sumthin that will allow u to hold inner stud while you crank on pressure nut. longer stud with some wrench flats or weld a hex on. its important that when you use tool that tube doesnt spin at bear. this will cause flakes to come off tube and get in bearing.

and post pics of complete inner side of both cases so we can see any other issues.


https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-OYTNnthH70I/TyIrs_J2QGI/AAAAAAAAB0o/ppdo-JgZH48/s512/dirts%2520case.jpg

DirtyCory
27th January 2012, 07:03
wow....i do got some work to do...full report tomorrow

spiritof67
27th January 2012, 14:17
I was off on a ride on my XLCR some years back, machine was running great, did about 250 miles. On my way back I had one of my favorite mountain roads to ride - and halfway through I had a big drop in performance. Took a quick look and didn' see anything. Putt-putted home.

Took it to the local machanic - I thought I had hit some bad gas. He caled me back 1/2 hour later and says "Take a look at the rear cylinder". About half of the cylinder base gasket was showing outside the studs...

He said "This is one of the very few machines you'll ever see that'll get you home in that condition". All hail the Ironhead.

PS: A few years later after using a new "mechanic" I found myself stopped on the road out of town. Needed a HOG ride to the dealer. Turns out the "mechanic" had used the wrong plug length (even though I gave specific instructions - and plugs) and my CR had eaten up and spat out all or most of the electrodes of three plugs. Stopped on me IN TOWN and in front of an air conditioned ice cream stand on an 85 degree day..

DirtyCory
28th January 2012, 03:18
alright well ive done some homework today and i got lots of pics coming up. hopefully the pictures will do justice. i know its pretty hard to look at a bearing and say if its good or not. but here we go anyway.

1) timken. did you remove the outer cups from the case?

no, i did not remove them from the case. i tought they looked really good. no scuffing or pitting that i can see at all...but ill let you be the judge of that. here is the inner cup..
http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb385/corygodden/002-9.jpg
and the outer cup
http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb385/corygodden/004-5.jpg

1a)did you start to remove cups then decide to leave them alone?

no, i did not touch them at all, only cleaned them.

1b) check cups that they dont rotate. no tool ness, use ur fingers.
ur checking that the press fit hasnt dissapeared

i cannot detect any movement at all. no up and down or spinning at all

2) pinion bear. did you move either inner orouter from the old pos?

no, i left them all alone. all the bearings in the bottom end i left in place. at first i was gonna change everything. but when the motor was last rebuilt, about 5000 miles ago, ALL the bearings were replaced then. so, i took everything i got over to the guy who helped me then. well i should say the man who did the bottom end work to the motor at that time. he told me that by the way the races looked in the cases and the way the bearings looked and felt, that i didnt need to mess with them especially since the milage was so low from the last time they were replaced. he said the same about the pinion bearings and races too. so, im leaning on dont fix it if it aint broke here. but here again.... i trust you judgement more, so here is a some pics...
http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb385/corygodden/011-2.jpg
http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb385/corygodden/010-1.jpg
http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb385/corygodden/009-2.jpg

3) cam needle bears in case. have or are you gonna mess with them?

here again, i was gonna but my guy told me that the way every thing looked and felt and by the way the cam shaft looks that rides in the bearing, that it was not nessesary. the guy i used for this work the last time is know all over town as the best pre-evolution harley mechanic all around. but i know that dont necesserly mean much sometimes. and here again, i trust you judgement more than his. so here are some pics....in order....
http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb385/corygodden/404219.jpg
http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb385/corygodden/404220.jpg
http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb385/corygodden/404221.jpg
http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb385/corygodden/404222.jpg

http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb385/corygodden/404223.jpg
http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb385/corygodden/404224.jpg
http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb385/corygodden/404226.jpg
http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb385/corygodden/404228.jpg

the to do list:

1)chech that pri drain plug for leak. compressed air on one side, soapy water other side. bubbles?

good no leaks. checked with the soapy water method like you said and all was good... except for the soapy water that shot in my eyes.... :) i have never had any leaks from the drain plug before either so i think that is good. and as far as the crack next to the drain plug, i think im gonna leave it alone since it dont leak. im kinda scared to have any welding done on the cases unless absolutly nessesary cause all i have read about how welding on these cases and how they can distort and warp and im not confident that anyone in my area is gonna be compitent to do it. so im kinda leaning toward dont fix it if it aint broke here again.

2) check that every screw/ bolt/stud goes into its hole. and that when litely bottomed in hole the 'reveal length' is shorter than the boss length on mating part. pick all sealer from bottom of all holes. check timing plug too.

good, all hoes clean and all the bolts are shorter that the over all thread legth. chased all the threads and bolts with a tap and die then used a small screw driver to clean the bottom of the holes and then blew every thing out with compressed air.

3) set cam end play now if your gonna shim. much easier when cases are split.

http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb385/corygodden/404217_3047410460028_1106183977_33315610_59595722_ n.jpg
checked all endplays from inside of case. the results:
#1 .041 #2 .035 #3 .039 #4 .037
i do plan on using shims at least some. i recorded all the numbers inside the cover of my manual so i dont ever losed track of them. i was gonna try to get them down to .012-.015...sound good??? still planning on doing one last free rotation check after wheels are back into case. i wanna do this before i seal the cases so i can just make sure that pinion shaft bushing is not gonna need line reamed.

4) rear motor mt. check for cracks. check that lower thread inserts are in good condition
SHIT.... got a crack going across the top from both edges. i didnt even notice before. closer look at it i see a very small crack on both sides of it. tim for a new one. i wonder why the hell harley used an aluminum motor mount? seems dumb to me. but i dont know. is there a quality steel after market mount available??

5) check fit of rear mt to frame. can be problematic on engine install. scrape paint from 4 frame surfs where mount butts. leaving the lower bolts on work bench install mount to frame. just 2 top bolts. titen tops. will lowers catch threads and titen like this?
this is how its gonna go when you do install for real. the machined lower surf on mount will sit on little shelf machined into the frame casting. then the weight of motor will pivot mount away from top rear frame surfs. the 2 upper bolts go in 1st and get titened to support motor in correct position. then the lowers will go in.
well since my motor mount is cracked and the fact that i STILL dont have my frame back from the welder guy that told me he would have it done about a month ago now, im gonna have to wait on step 5

your tool:
do sumthin that will allow u to hold inner stud while you crank on pressure nut. longer stud with some wrench flats or weld a hex on. its important that when you use tool that tube doesnt spin at bear. this will cause flakes to come off tube and get in bearing.

ok, i will try and find a longer stud to use. i got the longest one the hardware store had in that thread size. ill check a couple other ones to get a longer one. i think the longer stud is the best way to go and make a flat for the wrench cause im afraid ill just twist the nut off the end of the shaft if i weld one too it. the welder my friend has doesnt seem to do very good on thicker metal. (not the guy doing my frame by the way.) then i was thinking that i can weld a "T" handle of sorts on the tube and put a screw in the case for the primary cover and the "T" part can ride against that preventing it from turning. good point, i didnt think about the tube turning and flaking.

thin spot and cracks
well i never even noticed it before. not that this makes it ok but it has always like that and it has never leaked or cracked. when i started polishing the cases, i really wish i woulda left them alone. it just brought out a lot of imperfections. from what i see, a PO tryed cleaning up the cases with a wire wheel of sorts and gauged the hell out of it in spots. so im guessing thats when it got thin there. at the thinest spot, it is about 3/32 thick. just about and 1/8 is the thinest spot on the rear cylinder area. i cannot identify any crack in the area just below your line. i believe it is a casting imperfection. and ther area that you have a circle on the case where the stool goes does not look like a crack either. it looks like it may have been caused by the slip of a screw driver or something. the mark is just on the outside.

http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb385/corygodden/026-1.jpg
http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb385/corygodden/025-1.jpg

and post pics of complete inner side of both cases so we can see any other issues.

one thing i didnt notice before, i dont know how i missed it either, one of the dowel pins in the left case is very short compaired to the other. the dowel in the tranny area is 1/4" in length about the mating surface and half of that has a taper on it. the front one in the motor case area is 1/8" above the mating area. and all of this is the tapered part.

rear/ or tranny area
http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb385/corygodden/016-1.jpg

front/ or motor case area

http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb385/corygodden/020-2.jpg

i cant help but think that the front motor area one is not good! so i got 2 NOS dowel pins coming from dealer. any suggestions on how to get the short one out?? i was thinkin that i would carefully drill out the old one?

more pics...

http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb385/corygodden/023-1.jpg
http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb385/corygodden/022-2.jpg
http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb385/corygodden/017-2.jpg
http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb385/corygodden/018-2.jpg

tanny compartment
http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb385/corygodden/021-3.jpg

well thanks, if there are anymore pics that you want, different angle or anything. just let me know and i will post it right away. i know i still have lots of cleaning to do for sure and a little more sealer to pic away in spots. thanks for your feedback dr dick.

cory

DirtyCory
28th January 2012, 06:07
one more thing, does the spacer that goes between the bearings normally have a gap in it like this....

http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb385/corygodden/001-10.jpg

thanks

DirtyCory
2nd February 2012, 03:27
i just experianced most tedious and nerve racking task i have ever delt with on my ironhead. drilling out that %#$$&# dowel pin. i was so worried about messing up the case and going to big. broke 3 drill bits, went through about 4 grinding bits on the dremal, whole lot of swear words, and about 4 or 5 hrs later i finally got the dam thing out without messing up the case. what a pain in the ass!!!! and after it was all said and done, i cant tell any difference from the old pin to the new. same feeling, still the same play i felt before.....dam. i just wasted a whole lot of time....lol but i gained some good experiance....next time take it and leave it with the machine shop cause i later learned they have got a dowel pin remover that is like a mini slide hammer...

DR DICK
2nd February 2012, 04:27
the hole at 12:00 feeds oil between the bear cups. there is a spacer between cups like the one that goes between the cones. the gap in cup spacer should be at 12:00 also. so hole isnt blocked.

http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb385/corygodden/018-2.jpg

DR DICK
2nd February 2012, 04:41
where the .687 journal meets the thrust face is a chamfer. easy to see on left side. dogbones have a chamf around holes on 1 side of bone. chamfs goto chamfs. effects end play.

also on top edge of .687 bearing journal. it ends at the big chamfer. sand the sharpness off the transition. just a touch to remove the sharp. 400 wet and dry by hand 4 cams.

http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb385/corygodden/404226.jpg

DirtyCory
2nd February 2012, 04:45
the hole at 12:00 feeds oil between the bear cups. there is a spacer between cups like the one that goes between the cones. the gap in cup spacer should be at 12:00 also. so hole isnt blocked.

http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb385/corygodden/018-2.jpg

ok, cool that make sence. so from what you see, do you see any other potential problems? what do you think about my decision to reuse the bearings i have, given the low milage on them...? and what else do you think about that thin spot?

DR DICK
2nd February 2012, 05:14
note that the cam bears ride clear off the end of journals. not too cool. this can allow premature bearing/cam falure. when edge of journal is beared on it can start to disintigrate. this is what the sanding is about.

it looks as the bears are installed too deep into case bores. they s/b just below dogbone surf. like .001/.010 below. if yours are too deep they need to be repositioned. unshimed cams make this situation worse. using hd or andrews or late sifton put all shims on cover side of cams for max safty. special cases may require shims on bone end. min thkness of shim is .010. thinner maynot hold up well. no titer than .005 float. .010 is safer. i shoot for .005/.015 bigger be prefered.

on 76< bears MUST be driven out from flywheel side. they have a lip on wheel side of bear bores to keep bear from walking into wheels.

77> doesnt have this lip I THINK. GOTTA CHECK IF YOU DRIVE TO WHEEL SIDE.

put new bears dirt. monte3 knows whitch brand is still usa.

http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb385/corygodden/404217_3047410460028_1106183977_33315610_59595722_ n.jpg

DR DICK
2nd February 2012, 05:23
one more thing, does the spacer that goes between the bearings normally have a gap in it like this....

http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb385/corygodden/001-10.jpg

thanks

yes

DirtyCory
2nd February 2012, 05:44
note that the cam bears ride clear off the end of journals. not too cool. this can allow premature bearing/cam falure. when edge of journal is beared on it can start to disintigrate. this is what the sanding is about.

it looks as the bears are installed too deep into case bores. they s/b just below dogbone surf. like .001/.010 below. if yours are too deep they need to be repositioned. unshimed cams make this situation worse. using hd or andrews or late sifton put all shims on cover side of cams for max safty. special cases may require shims on bone end. min thkness of shim is .010. thinner maynot hold up well. no titer than .005 float. .010 is safer. i shoot for .005/.015 bigger be prefered.

on 76< bears MUST be driven out from flywheel side. they have a lip on wheel side of bear bores to keep bear from walking into wheels.

77> doesnt have this lip I THINK. GOTTA CHECK IF YOU DRIVE TO WHEEL SIDE.

put new bears dirt. monte3 knows whitch brand is still usa.

http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb385/corygodden/404217_3047410460028_1106183977_33315610_59595722_ n.jpg

ok...thats what ill do... thanks for you imput. ill give monte a pm and ask him witch ones.

measured bearing depth and the shallowest one is .030 and the rest are deeper yet...didnt bother measuring them after seein that you say they should be .001 - .010. below dog bone. good eye DR DICK... see i knew cause everyone says that guy was the best pre-evolution mechanic in town didnt mean shit....:D hes the SOB that installed them cam bearings... thanks DR DICK... more work ahead...allthough my progress will be slowed down big time...this f:censoring unreasonable warm weather got me called back into work already... my winter lay-off is already over. very stange. never seen a year like it in 11 years of construction... normally id have another 2 months to focus on the bike. but not this time... oh well...ill get it eventually. :) thanks again...

cory

DR DICK
2nd February 2012, 06:05
this covers 57-81

there was 2 diff pattern mounts 4 bolt (non hump cases) 58-69ch & 57-66xlh. and 2 bolt 67-69xlh 70-81 all.

goto photo parts parts catalog thread to see the 4 hole ones.
2 holers are 4 holer with the front cutoff.

my exp with welding the alum ones zero sucess. they will break again. kick start bikes break mounts sooner and worse than button only.

the 2 good options are a steel 900 or k model. but on non kickonly you must molest 60 yr old parts. on kick only bike you can run just the rear 2 bolts in a 4 hole mount. i think. k mounts have smaller hole for kicker shaft then xl. this makes them ok for button only bikes. hole can be opened up enuff for xl shaft. whats nice with these is that the 70-78ch lower oil tank mount doesnt need any mods.

the steel mounts used to be plentful and cheap. now it seems not. once we discuss some stuff on this forum it tends to drive price up. xlforum effect i guess.

the other option is a heavy duty aftrmrkt unit. there was usa and import. the import isnt too good but can be made to work. the usa was a fine unit. the prob with these is 70-78ch lower oil tank mount needs to be modded.

the usa were 1st motorsport later pingle.

replacing with the oem alum will bring you right back to where you are now.
pays to be choosey here.

DR DICK
2nd February 2012, 06:23
i just experianced most tedious and nerve racking task i have ever delt with on my ironhead. drilling out that %#$$&# dowel pin. i was so worried about messing up the case and going to big. broke 3 drill bits, went through about 4 grinding bits on the dremal, whole lot of swear words, and about 4 or 5 hrs later i finally got the dam thing out without messing up the case. what a pain in the ass!!!! and after it was all said and done, i cant tell any difference from the old pin to the new. same feeling, still the same play i felt before.....dam. i just wasted a whole lot of time....lol but i gained some good experiance....next time take it and leave it with the machine shop cause i later learned they have got a dowel pin remover that is like a mini slide hammer...

this is not uncommon on 77 up. from mating hole gettin filled with sealer pushin pin farter in to other case.

this is case alignment. nuff said?

1st clean mate hole. check new pin fit in mate.

coat old pin with penetrating oil. drill in drill press down center of pin with tap drill fro 8-32. drill clear thru pin. penetrating oil in hole. tap straight and square with 8-32 clear thru. more oil in hole. use a 8-32 allen long enuff to pass thru pin till it hits bottom of case hole. crank on bolt pin will come right out.

DirtyCory
2nd February 2012, 07:09
this is not uncommon on 77 up. from mating hole gettin filled with sealer pushin pin farter in to other case.

this is case alignment. nuff said?

1st clean mate hole. check new pin fit in mate.

coat old pin with penetrating oil. drill in drill press down center of pin with tap drill fro 8-32. drill clear thru pin. penetrating oil in hole. tap straight and square with 8-32 clear thru. more oil in hole. use a 8-32 allen long enuff to pass thru pin till it hits bottom of case hole. crank on bolt pin will come right out.

dam...:doh if i had only waited for this reply....sounds really simple. before i ever touched anything, i felt for any movement in the cases, i could feel just a little. so then i decided i must replace it. with the new one in, it feels the same. there is some play. i can bearly feel it, but its there. the mating hole seems to be a hair bigger. i wonder if there are oversized pins? there isnt a part # for one in the book.

i might have screwed up with this part some. i left some of the old pin in the bottom of the hole cause one of my broken drill bits was stuck down there..so i just took enough to get the new one in. i dont know, im more worried i can still feel some play. i will measure the play tomorrow

DR DICK
3rd February 2012, 01:20
dam...:doh if i had only waited for this reply....sounds really simple. before i ever touched anything, i felt for any movement in the cases, i could feel just a little. so then i decided i must replace it. with the new one in, it feels the same. there is some play. i can bearly feel it, but its there. the mating hole seems to be a hair bigger. i wonder if there are oversized pins? there isnt a part # for one in the book.

i might have screwed up with this part some. i left some of the old pin in the bottom of the hole cause one of my broken drill bits was stuck down there..so i just took enough to get the new one in. i dont know, im more worried i can still feel some play. i will measure the play tomorrow

screwin up is good. as long as u recover from it. thats how you learn. think i came up with the dowel removal routine after 1st wrestlin match. :censor no! being brown, round and puckered is my natural state.

at this point you bail on the pin. if its not in the correct position it may actually stop you from geting a good align. remove it. put it on the artifact shelf where it can be appreaced from this day forward.

now u got two things youll never do again. seriously--- thats progress.

plan b:

pins aligns cases when they get their inital machining. once the machining is complete there are multible reference indicators besides the pins. the key to plan b.

you need to dry run this procedure to debug it.

you still got a good rear pin setup. no prob there. in order to align front end of case assm you----
use the base surf of front jug to hold front case base surfs even to each other(same align as pins would provide) as u titen case bolts.

what u do is assm case halfs as normal. put all case bolts in but dont titen any. then place front jug on cases no pist or base gasks. the base nuts that hold cyls to cases dont use washers or lock washers. just for this procedure you want to put lockwashers. titen base nuts so locks are 1/2 way squeezed this will spring load jug to case an hopefully align the cases by using the case base surf. titen case bolts. remove jug. check for deck align. 003 or less mismatch at front most parting seam/base surf. as long as bases are aligned you are good to go.

DR DICK
3rd February 2012, 01:29
there is a plan c.

DirtyCory
3rd February 2012, 01:53
alright...hope i dont have to go to plan c... here again, im gonna have to wait on this. it seems every where take some thing to have work done that i cannot do, they piddle around and make me wait. heads and cylinders are still at the dam machine shop for over a month now. ive been patient with them, now im gonna have to start bugging them. i will report as soon as i can....

thanks man, you got a solution for everything. good deal...

cory

DirtyCory
3rd February 2012, 02:13
question: EDIT didnt read carefully enough. no need for question yet. gotta pay closer attention

cory

brucstoudt
3rd February 2012, 23:06
now youre familiar with edit.im,not sure theres such a thing as a wasted post on a forum .let some of that frustration boil off..

brucstoudt
3rd February 2012, 23:10
p.s.,im way too familiar with edit.im constantly correcting my spelling,and punctuation.im,convinced i,have o.c.d. [too fussy]

DirtyCory
3rd February 2012, 23:15
haha, im not frustrated...im having fun...a lot of fun actually!!!

brucstoudt
4th February 2012, 00:24
now you sound like the cory, im used to hearing.

DirtyCory
4th February 2012, 06:10
screwin up is good. as long as u recover from it. thats how you learn. think i came up with the dowel removal routine after 1st wrestlin match. :censor no! being brown, round and puckered is my natural state.

at this point you bail on the pin. if its not in the correct position it may actually stop you from geting a good align. remove it. put it on the artifact shelf where it can be appreaced from this day forward.

now u got two things youll never do again. seriously--- thats progress.

plan b:

pins aligns cases when they get their inital machining. once the machining is complete there are multible reference indicators besides the pins. the key to plan b.

you need to dry run this procedure to debug it.

you still got a good rear pin setup. no prob there. in order to align front end of case assm you----
use the base surf of front jug to hold front case base surfs even to each other(same align as pins would provide) as u titen case bolts.

what u do is assm case halfs as normal. put all case bolts in but dont titen any. then place front jug on cases no pist or base gasks. the base nuts that hold cyls to cases dont use washers or lock washers. just for this procedure you want to put lockwashers. titen base nuts so locks are 1/2 way squeezed this will spring load jug to case an hopefully align the cases by using the case base surf. titen case bolts. remove jug. check for deck align. 003 or less mismatch at front most parting seam/base surf. as long as bases are aligned you are good to go.

allright... got results!! first off, i got the lead mechanic on the job today, so you know everything is gonna work out..... :D she loves sittin in the other room with me when im messing with the bike. the next generation ironhead mechanic...

http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb385/corygodden/016-2.jpg

that was the fun... but anyway, went and got cylinder from machine shop and performed procedure exaclty like you said and i think im good to go. worked like a charm! thinest feeler gauge i got is .002. after i had cylinder and lock washers on, i could not get the feeler gauge under the cylinder at all. then i took cylinder off after i tightend alll the case bolts and i layed a straight edge across the mating surface and i still could not get the .002 in anywhere underneith it.

http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb385/corygodden/025-2.jpg

so, i think im at .001 or less with the alightment using this procedure...:clap is using the straight edge a good enough way to check this way?

now i just got to make sure upon final assembly i do it exactly the same way. now im down to replacing cam bearings, get a new motor mount and final cleaning and i almost ready to put it back together. little bit at a time.

thanks DR DICK! just curious for future reference, what was plan C ?

cory

DR DICK
4th February 2012, 14:29
yeah that looks good to go.

plan c is ic more a pita. you 'true' the cases similuar to trueing the flywheels. bolts half tite & a plastic hammer.

DirtyCory
4th February 2012, 21:23
cam bearings out....ive done some reasearch on torrington cam bearings. according to a google search, torrington USA and Koyo a Japan company merged in january of 2006. so any of the torringtons after that came from Japan. luck has it, my local HD dealer had 4 of them manufactured in november of 2002. still in the original HD package and say made in USA on the package. so i think im good to go. gonna work on installing them later today.

DirtyCory
7th February 2012, 04:40
got the cam bearings installed with the method you told me and i ended up with about .002-.004 on the depths. checked this be laying straight across dogbone surface and put feeler gauge between straight edge and bearing face. looks a lot different than the old ones, there isnt any of the bearing sticking out on wheel side of case now. so i think im good to go with that. no im getting to sanding the sharp edge off of the cams that you were talking about. i just want to make sure i understand exactly what area your talking about so is this the spot you said i need to take sharp edge off of????
http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb385/corygodden/404226-1.jpg
or this,
http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb385/corygodden/404226-2.jpg
from what i understand, i do what i posted in second photo?

thanks, cory

DirtyCory
10th February 2012, 12:39
DR DICK
well i had to go puttin my nose in the fsm some more as i often do, and i think i may have over looked something with my fly wheel assembly. i got to reading about the connecting rod side play......

http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb385/corygodden/002-10.jpg

specification say .005-.015.....and im at .020 fsm says to draw in crank pin nuts untill desired clearance is achieved. im not familiar with the flywheel stuff much at all. if i go and start cranking on the crank pin nuts, can i pretty much count on having to true them again? what is the right thing to do here? i can only hope this is a 76 and earlier thing like the side shake in the rods. maybe im just freakin out again....lol

thanks, DR DICK

cory

DirtyCory
11th February 2012, 02:43
DR DICK,

i checked for thrust washer movement like you said to and i got nothing. seem real tight, i cant get anything to move. thanks for the info that the s&s rods are a little skinnier so shouldnt have any problems.

next issue:

head back from machine shop, blasted and ported, looks like they got a little carried away shaping the valve guides....and maybe even took too much iron off around the guides???

rear intake:
http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb385/corygodden/012-4.jpg
http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb385/corygodden/013-4.jpg

rear exhaust:
http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb385/corygodden/014-2.jpg
http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb385/corygodden/015-2.jpg

front intake:
http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb385/corygodden/016-3.jpg
http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb385/corygodden/017-4.jpg

front exhaust:
http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb385/corygodden/018-4.jpg
http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb385/corygodden/019-4.jpg

also, here are the flow charts they gave me,

http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb385/corygodden/003-7.jpg
http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb385/corygodden/011-4.jpg

so what do you think? i think they took too much off of the valve guides. in a couple spots, they are probably .002-.003 on the edges. my gut tells me this is a problem. especially on the exhaust. i really dont think any of em too thin is good. last thing i want is one to break into peices and be right back to where i was to begin with.

thanks, cory

tiderider
11th February 2012, 02:45
Those pictures make me nervous. I would be concerned, jmho.

DirtyCory
11th February 2012, 03:20
Those pictures make me nervous. I would be concerned, jmho.

oh i am nervous.... interested to see what the DR's prognosis is

hcrashster
11th February 2012, 09:32
That's part of getting good flow numbers. I did my guides about the same as yours, though it looks like I took more out of the floor on the ports.
[ Hard to tell from a picture.] 10,000 + miles and no problems. What cams are you going to use?

brucstoudt
11th February 2012, 10:41
looks like you got a,nice flow increase. also looks like hardened valve seat inserts. im not so,sure the guides are a,problem.

DirtyCory
11th February 2012, 14:37
That's part of getting good flow numbers. I did my guides about the same as yours, though it looks like I took more out of the floor on the ports.
[ Hard to tell from a picture.] 10,000 + miles and no problems. What cams are you going to use?

for now, i plan on just using the stock p cams. but i wanted to just have it all ready to be able to put different ones in later on when ever i learn more about it and what not. my dad has a 75 and his head were ported by the same place 20 years ago. never seen the inside of them but his bike has stock cams and stock everything and his 75 always seem to have a little more snort than mine no matter what. im just worried the guides got too thin. one of the exhaust guides is just a couple thousandths thick. wouldnt the guide end up over heating being that thin? im not sure, just makes me nervous i guess.

chevelle
11th February 2012, 15:38
28" of water is Industry standard for flowbench but I believe most Harley stuff is done at 10" of water.
I believe you can convert: multiply by .598 for more comparable #'s.


http://www.centuryperformance.com/airflow-conversion-chart-spg-135.html

Mr.Gordon
11th February 2012, 16:22
Cory,
The service spec on the side play is up to .030.That is what my official Harley manual states. Just FYI, thats all.
Your guides are a little on the thin side, esp. that exhaust, but you could push in new one's if you are real worried about them.

DirtyCory
11th February 2012, 16:27
Cory,
The service spec on the side play is up to .030.That is what my official Harley manual states. Just FYI, thats all.
Your guides are a little on the thin side, esp. that exhaust, but you could push in new one's if you are real worried about them.

cool thanks, i got to thinking about that too as far as the spec in my manual is probably a spec for a new fit, not wear limits.

Mr.Gordon
11th February 2012, 16:36
Remember too, it will get a little tighter as it warms up. The bronze guides look fine to use, but those iron one's are thin. Probably won't have a problem but,,, Guides are not too much money, and I would talk to the guy who did the porting as far as the labor to replace them. Maybe you get the guides, he will install them. Just food for thought. After all, he did grind them down. Not saying anything bad about him, just some food, thats all.

hcrashster
11th February 2012, 18:18
Performance upgrades are almost always a trade off as far as longevity is concerned. To a guy that builds a race motor it is expected that he will be tearing down and inspecting so failing parts can be replaced. A street motor is never torn down TILL there is a failure. Building a race motor is easy. Building a street motor is easy. Trying to get both in the same motor is a little more complicated.

You wanted better flow for performance? OK. You got it.
You want 50,000 mile durability? Maybe, maybe not.

On a Chevy small block, you establish where the rocker is contacting the valve tip. Dead center? Toward the rocker or away from it? If dead center- all good. This will minimize side loading and consequently, guide wear. If not centered you change pushrod lengths until acceptable.

Sportsters, of course, use a different rocker/ valve configuration than Chevy. On a Sportster the geometry is fixed and can only be changed by using different length valve stems, different rocker cover gasket thickness or to a lesser degree, roller tip rockers. But, you can still check WHERE the rocker is contacting the valve.

Before you install your rocker covers, you put some Prussian blue on the valve tips. Assemble as normal, EXCEPT- NO OIL. Rotate motor a few turns. Pull the rockers and look at valve tip for point of contact. If your very lucky the mark will be dead nuts center on all 4 valve tips. If not? Don't worry too much, the world will keep on turning and your bike will run fine. Maybe not 50.000 miles before it starts burning oil. Maybe not 10,000. Or maybe 60.000.

Point is, there are alot of variables involved in how long your motor will last. I would not worry about what you think is a problem with guide wall thickness at the ENDS of the guides. Of much more importance is the stem clearances and how well the valve sits on it's seat. If you really want to know that, give a call and get some Prussian Blue. :chop

JBGoode
11th February 2012, 22:34
just go buy an evo bt and be done with it!

DirtyCory
11th February 2012, 23:07
just go buy an evo bt and be done with it!

johnny b goode.....well you made it back huh.... dont be gettin banned again this time....:laugh how dare you say the "E" word.........

DR DICK
12th February 2012, 05:56
looked at guides.

it may be a little iffy. my gut says probly gonna be fine. luckly you can inspect it by removing pipe.

personally ive been thinning my guides for a long time a little more each valve job. waitin to see how much is too much. bad hasn't happened yet.

if your guys have a good rep then id go with it. after i went back down to them and said---

"you guys are confident that i wont have any guide related probs. ill take your professional word for that. im nervous. probly over nothing but nervous none the less. so in an effort to keep a good relationship, how bout in the rare event that i do have a prob you guys fix it under warranty. ill pull the head and buy the parts and you guys handle the labor costs?"

that kinda thing will usually end in one of three ways.

1) they really arent too confident and will opt to replace the guide now. in order to keep a good customer.

2) they are confident and sure of their word and will agree in a heartbeat. cause they know there wont be a prob. they see this is a reasonable request from a 2nd generation customer.

3) tell you to get the hell out their shop. and you should because theres no professional integrity there.

as long as its not #3 your covered.
if it is #3 then id sever my business with them.

if its 1 or 2 then the 1st rule of ironhead ownership is satisfied.

NEVER GUESS.

DirtyCory
12th February 2012, 07:24
thanks DR DICK for putting me at ease. it woulda bothered me otherwise. these guys do got a A++ reputation in town. and all over the surrounding area as well. ive never heard anything bad about them. i guess when i first seen it, i just got nervous cause ive never seen nothing like it. but im learing, so i obviously just didnt know what i was looking at.

i will talk to them and see what they say about fixing it if there is ever any problems. im guessing there gonna agree. my dad is a good customer of theirs and he has not only had his harley parts there, but also a some motor work and dyno runs among other things with them.

thanks for the piece of mind.

cory

brucstoudt
12th February 2012, 11:35
isnt someone suggesting buying an evo big twin on an ironhead sportster forum grounds for bannishment. if,not,it should be!

DirtyCory
14th February 2012, 02:04
took the heads back into the machine shop today and told them i what i was worried about and asked if or should something go wrong if they would stand behind it and they agreed with no problem, in fact, they said they would cover parts and labor. and the owner of the shop came and look at em and he decided to take of the sharp edge of the guide before i even mentioned it to him. they ended up taking off .030 to get a little bit of a flat spot. so, they are gonna uphold there end and stand behind it.

DirtyCory
14th February 2012, 02:15
got my frame back finally and i started doing some test fitting and what not. still waiting on my pingel to arrive before i can do a final assemble of the motor, but for now i just threw everything on there to test fit and drill some holes for gas tank and motor mount that i needed.

here are the repairs done, didnt take pictures of all the holes they filled but here was the main things done.

http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb385/corygodden/003-8.jpg
anyone got an extra top mount laying around they wanna sell?
http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb385/corygodden/002-11.jpg
dont know why they didnt weld all the way up on the motor mount, im sure it wont matter but just for looks
http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb385/corygodden/004-8.jpg
http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb385/corygodden/005-9.jpg

gettin a little closer. just got to get a top motor mount to make sure everthing gonna line up, then its off to powder coat. getttin a little closer all the time. wont be long.

one more....
http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb385/corygodden/001-12.jpg

Mr.Gordon
14th February 2012, 02:16
Thats great news! Betcha that puts your mind at ease. And it shows that their a quality, stand up business.

DirtyCory
15th February 2012, 03:55
well, while waiting for top motor mount to arrive i figured id redo the rivets on the starter ratched on the clutch hub so i can still be making some progress. ratchet plate was loose when i disassembled it, my fault for trusting my drunk indie to do it. so i got the old rivets out and got to checking everything out and i think they worked loose cause there was small burrs on the edges of the drilled holes and the rivets were beat the hell out of. an if i recall from a post that DR DICK had somewhere along the line on riveting, that when they get hit more than they need to they just get weaker??? it looks that the idie used a freakin air chissel to set them. so being that the ratchet plate was loose for some time, the holes in the plate have ovaled out and i believe i need to replace the ratchet plate. so, still got to get more stuff before i proceed. but in the mean time, got a few more questions.......

DR DICK,
im sure you got this stuff down to a science, it doesnt look like the holes where drilled completely centered in the clutch basket for each hole for the ratchet plate. a few where a little off and just hammered in anyway. probably didnt help things any.

so thanks to forum member Eric Freeman who loaned me a holding tool to hold everything solid while the holes are drilled and riveted.

http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb385/corygodden/001-13.jpg

but since the first holes are a little off...not much...but a little, is it ok to drill a new set inbetween the old ones? i was gonna put the new ones in line with the black marker marks i put on the basket.

the thing is with the holding tool, it still allows it to not be perfectly centered. im thinking this is an issue. whats the best way make sure it is?

so here is my plan...pick it apart if need be:

get new ratchet plate and rivets i already got new ones, then get everything centered up best i can, flip the ratchet plate upside down to allow me to get a transfer punch in the holes, then install holding tool and center punch holes. not sure if the flipping it upside down deal is gonna work cause of the starter teeth. is there a better way to transfer punch holes so they dont get off?????? then take holding tool and ratchet plate off and then im gonna go to my buddys house and used his drill press to set new holes. then i bought a rivet punch that is concaved to set the rivets. was gonna find a big enough steel ball to put between anvil and rivets when i set them. reason i say steal ball is cause the ratchet plate i have is aftermarket and the head of the rivets recess below the surface of the plate. dont know if OEM did this or not? i wish i could find your post dr dick but correct me if im remembering wrong, when setting rivets. the first couple blows will feel kinda mushy, this is when the rivet is marrying with the holes. then the next 1 or 2 will start to feel solid. then anymore after that will actually start to loosen the rivets. so im thinking i might need to practice on something else to get the feel.

well, what do you think? please, pick it apart and tweek my thinking if need be.

thanks, cory

DirtyCory
16th February 2012, 03:17
PINGEL FITMENT ISSUES......

well DR DICK, i got another issue.... :)
so i got the pingel motor mount in the mail today and got right to working on a test fit and much to my surpise, it has issues. given its reputation from many, many people have said its a quality unit, (witch is does seem that is a really heavy duty, tough unit) none the less it has fitment issues.... first, it takes some effort to slide the unit over and down the 3 studs from the left side case. you can kinda see here how the studs are forced to one side of the holes..... a little tweeking here and there, i can get it to line up a little better but still not all the way.

http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb385/corygodden/017-5.jpg
http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb385/corygodden/016-4.jpg

and the top holes are no different, only one will line up...

http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb385/corygodden/013-5.jpg

not sure what the deal is here but the studs are not completly snug on the mount any way, so would it hurt to open them up a little more with a drill or a round file to just open the one side a little more?????? i dont wanna force anything cause i dont wanna ad and unneeded stress.

next thing is for the 77-78 kicker cover support bracket......
with oem unit, there is not a problem at all, but with beefer pingel mount has some extra material on it between the top and middle bolts that i dont need there. other wise i cannot use the kicker support unit. and i feel as i must use the kicker support cause i finally, finally found a NOS 77-78 xlch sprocket cover after months of searching. i couldnt even find used for a long time and i dont want to break this NOS cover right out the gate. pictures....

http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb385/corygodden/014-3.jpg
http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb385/corygodden/015-3.jpg

so, i kinda feel like im inbetween a rock and a hard place and only have one option....but, is it gonna effect the strenght of the unit enough if i remove just enough of it to get my kicker support to fit?????

thanks for the help, i quess its two steps forward, one step back sometimes..... its the way it goes sometimes...haha

thanks, cory

hcrashster
16th February 2012, 07:52
This is what I call "hotrodding".

Don't worry about the Pingel. Your cases will crack long before it will. The rest is just fitting it all together.You can open those holes up till it fits. Grinder and a marking pen, small cuts till it's flat enough for you to install the sprocket cover support.

You have to expect a few more problems like this one before it's all over, but that is half the fun if you look at it the right way.Good call by the way- If you force these parts together and then bolt them down, something will crack. It won't be a steel cover support and it won't be a rear motor mount and that leaves just one thing.

piniongear
16th February 2012, 15:41
Perhaps of greater importance though...........
How does the hole in the mount line up for the kick start shaft
with relation to the hole in the case fore the shaft to enter?

If the mount hole here is not lined up, the issue will get more complicated. The shaft needs adequate clearance around it (going through the mount) for the shaft to work properly.
pg

DirtyCory
16th February 2012, 15:55
Perhaps of greater importance though...........
How does the hole in the mount line up for the kick start shaft
with relation to the hole in the case fore the shaft to enter?

If the mount hole here is not lined up, the issue will get more complicated. The shaft needs adequate clearance around it (going through the mount) for the shaft to work properly.
pg


thanks pg, i just went and checked, the kick start shaft as ample room for operation with this mount. more than enough for sure. so im good to go with that.

DirtyCory
16th February 2012, 17:25
This is what I call "hotrodding".

Don't worry about the Pingel. Your cases will crack long before it will. The rest is just fitting it all together.You can open those holes up till it fits. Grinder and a marking pen, small cuts till it's flat enough for you to install the sprocket cover support.

You have to expect a few more problems like this one before it's all over, but that is half the fun if you look at it the right way.Good call by the way- If you force these parts together and then bolt them down, something will crack. It won't be a steel cover support and it won't be a rear motor mount and that leaves just one thing.

well, after some more screwing around and test fitting in every way i could think of, i think i have narrowed down the problem area with the mount. it is not in the 3 holes like i thought. the clearance issue is here........

http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb385/corygodden/001-14.jpg

i found this, cause i removed right sid case half, and the pingel mount slid right over the 3 case studs with out a hitch at all. so thats when i determined the fittment issue was as shown in picture above. so know, my options are to file the case down enough to get the clearance i need or to thin the mount in the area were it meets the cases. i think if i do one of these, the rest of the holes are gonna line up like they should. i really dont wanna start grinding on the cases so i think im gonna try to thin the mount a little. as little as possible of coarse.

also, i called pingel enterpise, and talked with them about what was going on. they said after over 30 years of making this product, that i am the first one to ever have fitment issues of any kind....lol....i find it kind of hard to believe, but thats seriously my kind of luck. happens all the time....lol they also told me that i would be ok removing material to get proper fitment. so thats what im gonna do. they also said i could remove what ever material i needed to on the side to get my kicker cover support bracket in place. so, i think i have a solution for this problem, thankfully. oh yeah, they also blamed my fitment issue on AMF's production tolerances....lol.....dam you AMF!!!!! :)

hcrashster
16th February 2012, 18:36
Hey Now! Go easy on the AMF. They made outstanding, world class tennis rackets. I'd like to see Pingle make one half as good. :p

DirtyCory
16th February 2012, 18:43
Hey Now! Go easy on the AMF. They made outstanding, world class tennis rackets. I'd like to see Pingle make one half as good. :p

:laugh:laugh

tracbike
16th February 2012, 20:15
the holes where the studs are look real tight. I would opt to send a adjustable reamer through the stud holes to get that couple of thousands you are looking for. rather than machine the surface or grind it. you can do a much neater job fitting it with the reamer process. or Adjustable Expansion Reamer

DirtyCory
16th February 2012, 23:02
got all three side holes to fit without much work and modified extra meat on the side for kicker support. and now this top right side hole is farther off then it was before, but top left lines right up, no problem......

http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb385/corygodden/002-13.jpg
http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb385/corygodden/001-15.jpg

so, before i got into making that one fit, i decided id do another test fit in frame. shoulda been more thorough with that part first.... the dam thing dont even sit down on the frame when bolted on. .020 gap underneith the mount on the bottom. dam and i already modified the hell out of the part to make it fit and now i cant send it back....another live n learn type of thing. oh well, im not to worried about it.

Bailin out on the PINGEL. gonna hold out for early steel oem mount. has anyone else ever had issues with the pingel??? i cant see AMF being off that far. my oem mount lined right up with no issues. besides the fact that its cracked now...lol

fdny37
16th February 2012, 23:29
well, after some more screwing around and test fitting in every way i could think of, i think i have narrowed down the problem area with the mount. it is not in the 3 holes like i thought. the clearance issue is here........

http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb385/corygodden/001-14.jpg

i found this, cause i removed right sid case half, and the pingel mount slid right over the 3 case studs with out a hitch at all. so thats when i determined the fittment issue was as shown in picture above. so know, my options are to file the case down enough to get the clearance i need or to thin the mount in the area were it meets the cases. i think if i do one of these, the rest of the holes are gonna line up like they should. i really dont wanna start grinding on the cases so i think im gonna try to thin the mount a little. as little as possible of coarse.

also, i called pingel enterpise, and talked with them about what was going on. they said after over 30 years of making this product, that i am the first one to ever have fitment issues of any kind....lol....i find it kind of hard to believe, but thats seriously my kind of luck. happens all the time....lol they also told me that i would be ok removing say .050 of material to get proper fitment. so thats what im gonna do. they also said i could remove what ever material i needed to on the side to get my kicker cover support bracket in place. so, i think i have a solution for this problem, thankfully. oh yeah, they also blamed my fitment issue on AMF's production tolerances....lol....i had a hard time arguing that, and to be honest, they are probably right.....dam you AMF!!!!! :)

You can go ahead and remove those studs and install the mount with bolts instead. It makes it a lot easier to remove the mount without removing the engine. It's your option as you have the engine out of the frame. Oh yea, before there was Pingel there was Motorsport.

http://xlforum.net/photopost/watermark.php?file=21536

piniongear
16th February 2012, 23:42
Cory,
If you are having so much trouble with the Pringle mount I suggest you just toss it and write it off as a live and learn experience as you say.
Then keep your eyes open for an old original steel mount.

That is what I did and the steel is never going to crack or give you one bit of trouble.
Where are all of those Pringle lovers at the moment?
Hiding in the closet no doubt. ;)
pg

DirtyCory
16th February 2012, 23:50
Cory,
If you are having so much trouble with the Pringle mount I suggest you just toss it and write it off as a live and learn experience as you say.
Then keep your eyes open for an old original steel mount.

That is what I did and the steel is never going to crack or give you one bit of trouble.
Where are all of those Pringle lovers at the moment?
Hiding in the closet no doubt. ;)
pg


yeah, i think thats what im gonna do, DR DICK even told me before in an earlier post that the early steel was my best choice. i shoulda just held out for that. i couldnt find one then, now, go figure, i can get my hands on one for less than what i paid for the pingel or as you say, pringle:laugh sounds like a good name for it. im not too worried about it really, just live n learn. im sure my experiance my be different than most have had, like i said, thats just the kinda luck that follows me around:p its just the way it goes. no biggy, this ironhead aint gonna beat me...

brucstoudt
17th February 2012, 00:13
good idea,one case half,at a time=progress.

brucstoudt
17th February 2012, 00:24
if you used bolts[longer ],rather than studs like fdny37,suggested,you still could use your supprt bracket.correct?

IronMick
17th February 2012, 00:50
if you used bolts[longer ],rather than studs like fdny37,suggested,you still could use your supprt bracket.correct?

Mine had bolts when it came into my hands. No problem installing the kicker support.

There was some discussion last year about the technical need for studs rather than bolts. I believe the poroblem is something like this ...

With the studs factory installed you can apply relatively high torque to the nuts at installation. If you apply that much torque to the bolts you may strip the threads in the case.

I am not expert on this. A search may turn up the discussion.

Hopper
17th February 2012, 00:57
Whatever torque is applied at the nut end is equalled by the retaining force at the other end. The usual reason for using studs in aluminium is once the stud is in place it stays there for ever, so no wear on the soft aluminum threads as the nut is removed from the other end of the stud repeatedly over the years when servicing is done etc.

brucstoudt
17th February 2012, 01:18
that all makes sense,and i,understand,all of that,but once the motor mount and motor have been installed,theyre going to be together for many years,not like they will be changed at short intervals.[not race application]if helicoils were used there should be no issue to speak of.

DR DICK
17th February 2012, 03:06
1) all the problems your having are the exact same problems i used to see with the imoprted knock offs.

(fdny is the 'early pingle' if you will) before they were pingel they were motorsport.

2) the vintage pingles were engraved not stamped.

these two issues lead me to:
a) that mount is counterfeit
b) or pingle is now selling the crap imports with thier name on them.

either way id like to get to the bottom of it so more members dont end up brown, round, and puckered.

i dug up an old pingle two weeks ago it dont look like yours.

i want to send it to you to compare with the one you got. i got a strong feeling the older one is gonna fit as sweet as a wedding nite sleepover.
if it fits good send it back with the kicker support and il miil mount for support.

get me ur shippin addr.

also check that im not screwed up on the missing hole for top mount. you may not be able to get box end of wrench off nut once every thing is torqued down with out hole.

im gonna go find rivet link now. and top mount link.
you post a pic of rivet hole mis align. and pic of inside of drum. and both sides of new rachet plate. make sure ur rachet gear bushing od fits thru id of rachet plate.

DR DICK
17th February 2012, 03:38
rivets
http://xlforum.net/vbportal/forums/showpost.php?p=3022859&postcount=15

this one is about rear sprockets but good info anyway.
http://xlforum.net/vbportal/forums/showpost.php?p=2624204&postcount=10

tappet rollers. these use a different kind of rivet. the 'buddy' thing is relavent to your assm.
http://xlforum.net/vbportal/forums/showpost.php?p=3765451&postcount=21

top mount. this is one of my 1st posts so its even more convulated than usual. if you read it slow with the stuff in front of you it may come clear. this was for a 900. 1000 dont use the special 13/16 hex bolt. uses reg bolt instead.
http://xlforum.net/vbportal/forums/showpost.php?p=3765451&postcount=21

DirtyCory
17th February 2012, 04:24
hey Doc, the last two links in the last post are the same. the one you said was one of your first post is also the link for the tappet roller info.

hcrashster
17th February 2012, 08:14
Don't eat that pringle. Send it back. Modified or not the mounting holes should line up. Compare with your original and see how far off the Pingle is.

I would document all info with pictures, send them off to Pingle and see if they will honor thier warranty, even if modified. Remember, it's thier Rep. at stake here, not yours. Assuming it's legit and not a counterfit as the good Dr. suggested.

DirtyCory
17th February 2012, 15:49
Don't eat that pringle. Send it back. Modified or not the mounting holes should line up. Compare with your original and see how far off the Pingle is.

I would document all info with pictures, send them off to Pingle and see if they will honor thier warranty, even if modified. Remember, it's thier Rep. at stake here, not yours. Assuming it's legit and not a counterfit as the good Dr. suggested.

called pingel again and emailed them all the same pictures i posted here in this thread, and they want me to send it to them and see if they can see whats going on with it. they said they have some motor cases and frames around there they want to test fit it in. they also want to compair it to there jig. maybe they will get this figured out and make it right.

tracbike
18th February 2012, 12:41
ah ha!!! compare it to their jig.......not made in house anymore. I could not stop thinking about the first response from them. And wondered if they took into account one bad rap these days (power of the net) if that was not resolved there would not be one person here that would take the risk of going through same frustration.

I had to figure like anything else today that work is being subbed out to make it cheap...unfortunatley for them who's checking tolerances?

The problem with sending it to a outside source that may or may not be in the industry this is the result.

One thing I would remind anybody is that a forum of this nature (size) once a topic is covered, naming manufactures you goggle name and this site comes up on front page... that is very powerful.

That gives everyone in the forum power to right the wrong, (like gentlemen) as in "case resolved" or not.

So far I like the response on second attempt. and regardless of your modifications,....if they admit to a faulty part they go up many notches in my book.....if not i will express that when I see them at the races.

You can spend lots of money on advertising only to have it wasted with one unhappy customer.

Hope it works out....

fdny37
18th February 2012, 15:22
Correct me if I'm wrong but I'm pretty sure the steel mounts are for the older XLCH with four bolts on top. I have never seen an XLH steel mount and I don't know if the four bolt mount will work on an XLH (fitment issues with the starter).
Just some food for thought.

Monte03
18th February 2012, 16:11
Correct me if I'm wrong but I'm pretty sure the steel mounts are for the older XLCH with four bolts on top. I have never seen an XLH steel mount and I don't know if the four bolt mount will work on an XLH (fitment issues with the starter).
Just some food for thought.

I think FDNY is correct, they shortened the K Style Mount (originally steel) to make way for Electric Parts,
Pingel:
the Original Company prior to Pingel was MOTORSPORT,
Pingel still makes the mounts:
http://www.pingelonline.com/harley_davidson_acc.htm

DirtyCory
18th February 2012, 17:10
im not using a starter. the four bolt mount would not matter to me. converting to XLCH. kick only. been my plan since page 1.

when i was talking with pingel, i ask them if they were still made in usa. they told me everything they sell including the mounts are made here in the usa in wisconsin. but who knows. we will see how it ends up.

piniongear
18th February 2012, 17:34
And I will add my 2 in here by saying the old original steel mount does have 4 holes.
The old crankcase also has 4 holes.

When Harley changed to 2 holes all they did was knock the front 2 holes off the mount and later eliminated the 2 front holes in the case.

But the hole spacing stayed the same.
All you have to do, if you should be so lucky to find a steel mount, is saw off the front of the mount.
I found a steel mount for my 1971 which came with an aluminum 2 hole mount (that cracked in it's first year of life)
and it fit perfectly after you saw off the front holes.
pg

piniongear
18th February 2012, 17:45
im not using a starter guys. the four bolt mount would not matter to me. converting to XLCH. kick only. been my plan since page 1.

when i was talking with pingel, i ask them if they were still made in usa. they told me everything they sell including the mounts are made here in the usa in wisconsin. but who knows. we will see how it ends up.

Yeah, right!
Like the new Harley-Davidson........ made right here in the USA in York or Milwaukee........ well except for all those electrical components on it which are Made in Mexico or the many parts Made in China.

Unfortunately, 'Made in USA' does not mean what it once did.
Hell, now the sub-contractors (China) will sub-contract out their work to someplace like Malaysia or India.

And we like to complain about the quality as much as we love the low prices of the goods.
That leaves us NO ONE to blame but ourselves.
pg

DirtyCory
18th February 2012, 18:14
And I will add my 2 in here by saying the old original steel mount does have 4 holes.
The old crankcase also has 4 holes.

When Harley changed to 2 holes all they did was knock the front 2 holes off the mount and later eliminated the 2 front holes in the case.

But the hole spacing stayed the same.
All you have to do, if you should be so lucky to find a steel mount, is saw off the front of the mount.
I found a steel mount for my 1971 which came with an aluminum 2 hole mount (that cracked in it's first year of life)
and it fit perfectly after you saw off the front holes.
pg


been thinkin, i might have an issue with the 4 bolt cause it would interfer with my tranny vent line the only problem with this, is i guess its just me personaly, but i think i would feel bad cutting up parts that are older than my mom and dad. :spank

http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb385/corygodden/002-15.jpg

so, id rather save it for someone that really need the 4 hole for a bike that was meant for it. hopefully pingel figure something out or as DR DICK had mentioned he thinks his vintage pingel is gonna fit as sweet as a wedding nite sleepover.... :p

bobber58
19th February 2012, 20:52
My Pingel fits my cases just fine, and does not look like yours, but the holes for the mounting bolts to the frame dont line up for crap. It also does not sit flush on the lugs either. I was only able to get 3 of the mounting bolts in, and it was a pain in the ass. I have to pull it off amd enlarge a couple holes so I can bolt it to my frame properly.

DirtyCory
22nd February 2012, 03:50
while this motor mount stuff gets sorted out i thought id get some of the little stuff outa the way. 4 or 5 years ago i bought one of them pretty chrome front brake master cylinders and this time around, im gettin rid of much as that chrome aftermarket shit as possible. :tour i got 2 originals in the garage and im bent on using original NOS and used oem parts this time around. so i thought id give it a once over.

http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb385/corygodden/004-11.jpg

the thing had been sitting for so long and left with brake fluid in it so it was a mess. :doh i spent about 2 hours cleaning it up before i even got started. and that was after it had been sitting in the parts wash tank for a couple days. the hardest part was getting the reservior cleaned out. took a while. so after a good thorough cleaning, about a 3 or 4 second run with a brake hone to clean the bore, then polish and one last clean, installed the repair kit after coating all parts in dot 5, i was done. i thought. put on the switch cover and i found out i had forgotten the threads were stripped. so retapped the threads and that was it.

http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb385/corygodden/006-11.jpg

IronMick
22nd February 2012, 13:38
What kind of setup did you use to compress the spring to get the snap ring/circlip out/in? I had some difficulty with that - i think i finally used a vice and a bar clamp or whatever. I do not remember exactly, just that it was awkward. And i may have to do it again soon.

beardo
22nd February 2012, 14:37
What kind of setup did you use to compress the spring to get the snap ring/circlip out/in? I had some difficulty with that - i think i finally used a vice and a bar clamp or whatever. I do not remember exactly, just that it was awkward. And i may have to do it again soon.

Mick, having just did this myself, here is how it happened for me:

Placed snap ring (already fitted to the pliers) on top of the piston.

Then took a long skinny dowel, pushed piston in.

Compressed the ring just enough to slide in, and viola, all in place. YMMV

DirtyCory
22nd February 2012, 17:31
What kind of setup did you use to compress the spring to get the snap ring/circlip out/in? I had some difficulty with that - i think i finally used a vice and a bar clamp or whatever. I do not remember exactly, just that it was awkward. And i may have to do it again soon.

hey mick, it was kinda a pain in the ass no doubt. gettin mine out was easy cause the spring was shot, gettin the clip on going in i used a old rounded off punch to keep the piston down and i didnt even use the snap ring pliers to get the clip in,too much of a pain in the ass while trying to hold that strong new spring down. i just walked it in similar to how you would walk in a wrist pin retainer ring into place. worked well for me.

Hopper
23rd February 2012, 00:08
been thinkin, i might have an issue with the 4 bolt cause it would interfer with my tranny vent line the only problem with this, is i guess its just me personaly, but i think i would feel bad cutting up parts that are older than my mom and dad. :spank
.... :p

No problem there. Just make up a longer vent line fitting. I did that when I put an extra sprocket cover support brakcet bolted on to those two holes. Just drill a small hole through a longer bolt in a lathe, or get it machined, and silver solder or Loctite a short piece of steel brake line into a larger hole recessed into the top of the bolt.

DirtyCory
23rd February 2012, 01:08
No problem there. Just make up a longer vent line fitting. I did that when I put an extra sprocket cover support brakcet bolted on to those two holes. Just drill a small hole through a longer bolt in a lathe, or get it machined, and silver solder or Loctite a short piece of steel brake line into a larger hole recessed into the top of the bolt.

ive never had a 4 holer in my hands, but from what i can tell from what ive seen is that the 4 holer will actually cover the 2 holes of witch either one could have the vent fitted to since they both go clear through the case. so the only other opition would be to cut off the front two holes or notching the 4 holer. witch im not totally sure i have another option quite yet. will know more as soon as i test fit dr. dicks pingel. if i still have problems, witch i probly wont, then i will get the 4 holer and do what i have to do. cause i really dont want to put an oem aluminum back on there cause from what i hear, its just gonna crack again at some point. i want something full proof. im hoping i hear from pingel tomorrow and see what they say.

piniongear
23rd February 2012, 01:35
Correct! Any aluminum you put on there is going to crack at some time or another.
A steel mount is never going to crack. Period.
pg

DirtyCory
11th March 2012, 03:43
i have not got around to posting about what i found out, sent it back to pingel and they wouldnt do anything about it. they said they got all holes to line up on there cases, all they had to do was twist the mount some to get the top bolt to line up with my mount....WTF!!!!!! so, if they expect me to do that, then when i tighten everything down, its gonna twist back to were it should be and cause STRESS!!! im no expert, i can only think logically, the way i think about it, the three holes on the side of the mount should be able to be tightend down and the top holes still be lined up. but that was no the case with mine. who knows, my experiance could be an exception. the top two holes on mine the bolt to the cases are not the same distance from the surface that the bolt goes into the frame. while talking with pingel, i bet i asked them to measure this at least 5 times and everytime i asked, the focus went another way and i never was able to get them to measure mine to a new one. they were not very helpfull to me on the phone. and i think a lot of that has to do with the guy i was talking to. he did not seem to get what i was saying. he was a f:censorin idiot!!!! oh well, i got a 130$ paper weight. nothing i can do i guess. i think i got one that some one made at 4:30 on a friday afternoon and thats just my kinda luck. i just cant see my cases being the problem cause my oem mount lines up perfectly. I GOT A P.O.S. pingel mount and thats all there is too it!!! :censor pingel and there motor mounts and i will never attempt to use them again!!!!

piniongear
11th March 2012, 03:52
Yep, you have to be left wondering what all these people with glowing reports of how fine a Pringle motor mount is are talking about?

Screw Pringle and their inferior products and conduct a serious search for an original steel mount.
Find one of those and you can forget about mounts for the rest of your life.
pg

DirtyCory
11th March 2012, 04:02
and now for the good news....i hope at least i have not test fitted to my frame yet cause its being powder coated right now.....but i scored an OEM early sporster steel mount!!!!!! pre molested so no big deal about cutting it.

so i had to grind just a little off the bottom of the front to holes to test fit it and guess what....as DR DICK put it.... IT FIT AS SWEET AS A WEDDING NIGHT SLEEP OVER!!!!!! but pingle says my problem was because my cases are AMF cases...well if thats the case, then why does a pre AMF mount fit so perfect?!?!?!?! cause they are full of shit and i got a bad unit and they dont want to stand behind it. oh well i got it figured out now!!!

all the bolts went right in with out a hitch WHAT SO EVER!!!!
http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb385/corygodden/001-16.jpg

had to put a helicoil in the bottom left hole, but who cares....!!!!.... its perfect!!! should lock tite be used on a helicoil in this application since there is no "bottome to the threads?

http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb385/corygodden/002-17.jpg

defenitly gonna have to cut off the front of the mount cause of the tranny vent holes in the case, but oh well, gotta do what ya gotta do... the best part about this whole thing is i paid about $80 less for the steel one than the Pringels... well the best part is actually that it fits and is rock solid....

tomorrow, i get frame back from powder coater and then test fit the mount to the frame. if all is well....cross your fingers cause God, i hope so, then its time to put this sportster back together and get on the road!!!!!! if all is well, ill have most of it back together next weekend if i dont have to work too much. still need to get 18 in aluminum rear...got one coming...be a couple weeks, then lace it and have it trued. then oil tank and shocks and i got everything i need.

ALMOST THERE!!!!! im hoping to be assembled be the end of april at the latest.

MORE.....coming soon!!!!!!

Mr.Gordon
11th March 2012, 04:06
Yea DC, I would use some of the red locktight. Just because. It would probably be ok without it or even the blue locktight, but me, I would just never think about it again with the red.

piniongear
11th March 2012, 04:29
<but pingle says my problem was because my cases are AMF cases...well if thats the case, then why does a pre AMF mount fit so perfect?>

Now that statement Pringle made is a line of bull shit a mile long!

My 1971 is an AMF and the steel mount I put on it came off a 1962 XLCH and fit perfectly.
The Pringle folks ought to know better than tell customers such bull shit!
They are only harming themselves.
They made a defective mount and will not admit it.
So who wants to do business with that kind of outfit?
NOT ME!

So chalk it up to a learned experience and move forward.
pg

DirtyCory
17th March 2012, 02:25
well, it fits the motor fine, but not the frame.... molestation of the steel mount was just a little too much.....

unlevel..
http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb385/corygodden/427.jpg
close up...
http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb385/corygodden/428.jpg

in comparison to the frame.....same thing on bottom tubes as U bracket
http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb385/corygodden/430.jpg

also, bottom bolt is binding in hole...
http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb385/corygodden/429.jpg

DR DICK
17th March 2012, 04:53
get some more info.

confirm little shelf on frame below lower bolt holes is made right. you dont know how true the frame is. lets find out.

first block frame at rear to position frame so the 4 surfs that the mount butts on are plumb. (verticle) frame is now ass end up. front to back position is set now.

for side to side position
loosly tie one flat washer on both ends of a pc of string. the washers need to be free in thier noose. hang string over top frame rail so both washers pass between lower tubes and hang under the tubes near where the tubes are welded to casting. both legs of string will fall with same string-lower tube gap when frame is blocked true side to side. frame is now siting true.

check little shelf with level. it should be true.

is it?

DirtyCory
17th March 2012, 18:23
ok... checked frame for true....

got rear mounting surfaces vertical...
http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb385/corygodden/006-13.jpg

same distance from string to tube on both sides, 11/16 in both sides......
http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb385/corygodden/002-18.jpg

and level on the lower shelf surfaces......
http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb385/corygodden/004-13.jpg

so all that checks out i think. now here is the 2nd steel mount that i have aquired that i planned on saving for later, for a bike that was meant for it.... sits perfect in the frame in comparison (to the other steel one i have, the chrome one).....

http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb385/corygodden/008-6.jpg

i really wanted to save this mount, but unless i can find out a way to straighten the other one, i may have to use this one.

DirtyCory
23rd March 2012, 01:45
i pulled flywheel back into left case today so i could make some sort of progress on this bike. here is how i did that, covered or should i say globbed the hell out of the two timken bearings with assembly lube before hand.

http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb385/corygodden/002-16.jpg
http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb385/corygodden/004-12.jpg
http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb385/corygodden/005-12.jpg
http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb385/corygodden/006-12.jpg

while tightening the nut on the puller, there was a steady resistance, then it got to a point that it got tight and i gave it just a little more just to snug it up, just a little, didnt wanna go too much. then i checked runnout again and still at .003, so thats cool. then i pulled the right case half off and i notice i can rock the wheels just a little bit. just a little. not much, but some. is this normal with out the right case on? i didnt pay attention when it was together before or take any notice of this. should i crank on that puller just a little more? im not sure if i should cause it was good and snug when i stopped. i dont wanna screw this part up. advise please. edit: normal, no worries

thanks, cory

DirtyCory
23rd March 2012, 03:03
also, i checked sprocket shaft end play and i got somewheres between .005 and .006 witch is the same is i got before i disassemble the motor. still within the specs of .001-.007 so, i think i got it.

The Whammer
23rd March 2012, 14:57
As the excitement builds! Cant wait to here that bike fired up cory. Lookin good!

brucstoudt
23rd March 2012, 23:21
ill,assume both cases were assembled when you checked sprocket shaft end play.and you got .005-.006,end play.i,think you answered your,own question.

DirtyCory
24th March 2012, 00:56
ill,assume both cases were assembled when you checked sprocket shaft end play.and you got .005-.006,end play.i,think you answered your,own question.

you are correct. i had a good feeling everything was ok, but i just wanted to make sure it was then DR DICK told me it was normal and okay. i just had to have conformation cause i dont wanna do it twice...:laugh good to go, bottom end assembled and installed in frame is my goal for this weekend if i can get off work at a decent time on saturday.

DirtyCory
24th March 2012, 00:57
As the excitement builds! Cant wait to here that bike fired up cory. Lookin good!

Thanks! i cant wait either...getting ancy

DirtyCory
26th March 2012, 03:26
well, slowly, but surely... i think i thought the reassembly was gonna go fast but with work, and as anal as i am about details, its gonna be a while...:D but thats ok, one step at a time... finding things i didnt notice before and addressing them, just notice i had only a few threads left in the top right motor mount hole in the frame, fixed with helicoil. got the bottom end all together and checked runnout and its at .003 and sprocket shaft endplay is at say .0055 so bottom end is up to specs.

http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb385/corygodden/001-19.jpg

got it in the frame and now gotta make a holding tool to put the pinion nut to torque and then button up the cam chest. long way to go yet. but this is the part that is most fun for me, puttin it back together.:clap

hcrashster
26th March 2012, 04:12
Looking good Cory. Frame looks OEM from here.

DirtyCory
26th March 2012, 04:16
Looking good Cory. Frame looks OEM from here.

thanks! everything back to the way it should be on the frame....except, i added the top center mount.

hcrashster
26th March 2012, 04:20
I'll never tell, Amigo. Unless offered a Budwieser or some Yukon Jack.

Hopper
26th March 2012, 04:22
... i added the top center mount.

Good idea! I've had the flimsy rear head mount break on my 77, and the front one shakes the bolt out every now and then.
The earlier set up was definietly more solid. Dont know why they changed it.

hcrashster
26th March 2012, 04:27
I was going to add, you are at the high point of assembly. That is dropping the jugs over the pistons. It's just repair from then on. The major work is essentially finished.

DirtyCory
26th March 2012, 04:33
Good idea! I've had the flimsy rear head mount break on my 77, and the front one shakes the bolt out every now and then.
The earlier set up was definietly more solid. Dont know why they changed it.

haha... sorry i cant take credit for the idea... DR DICK had recomended it since my frame had already been pre molested. so i did it. like you said, i dont know why the hell they would have changed it. ive lost the bolt on my front one with a locknut and a locktight on it too. i plan on running all the mounts still though. so ill still be supported when one of the top front or rear works loose or breaks.

DirtyCory
26th March 2012, 04:34
I was going to add, you are at the high point of assembly. That is dropping the jugs over the pistons. It's just repair from then on. The major work is essentially finished.

ya, this is when it gets real fun. i love this part!!!:clap

IronMick
26th March 2012, 13:47
... I've had the flimsy rear head mount break ... and the front one shakes the bolt out every now and then ...

Me too.

Hopper
27th March 2012, 01:44
Me too.

Must have been designed by the same AMF engineer who designed the 77-on kickstart/sprocket cover fiasco. Took a tried and true solid HD design and replaced it with something so flimsy it looks like it came off a bowling pin setting machine.

DirtyCory
27th March 2012, 02:38
Must have been designed by the same AMF engineer who designed the 77-on kickstart/sprocket cover fiasco. Took a tried and true solid HD design and replaced it with something so flimsy it looks like it came off a bowling pin setting machine.

:laugh:laugh ive been finding out more and more of that stuff as im going completly through this bike, they sure cut a lot of corners to save a buck.

brucstoudt
27th March 2012, 11:49
im,not sure why people continue to defend them.

scottfisher
1st April 2012, 05:22
whew...just copied this thread to a word file for a buddy that is on dial-up and not a member...only copied the build related bits...I was going to print it for him...but, it is 141pgs! (of great detail and pics!!!) I'll give it to him on a disk.

great thread cory...very helpful details for the later motors


EDIT:ooooops, sorry Dr. D. I wasn't thinking...lots of credit to you too!!!

Hopper
1st April 2012, 09:14
Dial up? You can still get dial up? Wow.

DirtyCory
1st April 2012, 18:41
whew...just copied this thread to a word file for a buddy that is on dial-up and not a member...only copied the build related bits...I was going to print it for him...but, it is 141pgs! (of great detail and pics!!!) I'll give it to him on a disk.

great thread cory...very helpful details for the later motors


EDIT:ooooops, sorry Dr. D. I wasn't thinking...lots of credit to you too!!!

thanks scott! you are right. DR DICK deserves the credit for this build!!!!!!! although it was my hands that did it, it was his experiance and EXPERT 100% reliable info that made me so comfortable to dig into this thing like i did. i am forever greatfull for the insight and the techincal knowledge and tips and tricks. he has helped turn me into an ironhead mechanic. well, not yet, still lots to learn, but im getting there.

almost done with the motor, more pics coming soon. still got to do the heads and install valves, measure hights and stuff. also gotta fix this skinny lip on the front intake spigot if i can ever figure out this brazing stuff, i suck at it and cant get it right. even with the DRs advise on the head fix, i cant seem to do it right. ive tried six times now and once today and failure agian. sooner or later ill figure it out i supose. then gotta go through trans and check everything and make sure everything is in tolerance. i think its good though. then install clutch and kicker stuff and ill be bout done. then the dreaded electrical. i hate electrical work....lol....

still waiting on a few parts, but i hope.....hope.....by the end of this month, ill be posting a start up video!!!:tour then, i think we'll make it into the sticky's

hcrashster
1st April 2012, 23:07
What's Up Bubbles? I'm guessing the jugs are back on?

DirtyCory
2nd April 2012, 01:11
What's Up Bubbles? I'm guessing the jugs are back on?

haha, yup jugs back on! i took your advice with the dawn dish soap and a tolit brush and scrubbed and scrubbed and scrubbed and rinse with wd-40. did it about 8 or 9 times each cylinder untill i got a white paper towel to come up clean. took about 3 hrs of cleaning and scrubing. but there clean!!!!!!

and by the way guys, hcrashster deserves some credit here to for the countless phone calls and answering many of my dumb questions... :) thanks, very greatful, youve been very helpful. there are more to thank too, piniongear and hopper have been a lot of help too with the countless PM's. thanks guys! and thanks to anyone else who has adding anything to this thread. very greatfull

hcrashster
2nd April 2012, 02:13
Your rings and bearings and pistons and rocker arms and cams and oil pump and valve stems/ guides and seals are going to have a long and trouble free life without all that microscopic iron and stone floating around in there.

Cleaning a cylinder to a white glove level sucks, but ask any pro engine builder and the answer will be, "Dirt kills motors". I firmly believe that statement.

piniongear
2nd April 2012, 02:36
Excellent suggestion hcrashster made regarding scrubbing the cylinders with dish soap and a good rinse after scrubbing.
That is the way to get all of the embedded grit out of the pores and you are correct Cory.....It takes a long while to get them clean. Your engine will thank you.
pg

DirtyCory
2nd April 2012, 03:22
got a lot of stuff done this weekend. not as much as i wanted to, felt like shit, had a headache all weekend. started out fixing oil pump, put a new (NOS) outer plate and seal in the pump to replace the irragular one i had before, it was mentioned earlier in the thread. then installed all the cams, lubed them up with assembely lube and lined up all timing marks and shimmed them.

shimmed all cams to FSM specs. i know many say dont use them, but i thought it would be best too. specification in manual says .005-.012 except rear intake witch is .004-.010.

endplay before shims:

#1- .041 (rear exhaust)
#2- .035 (rear intake)
#3- .039 (front intake)
#4- .037 (front exhaust)

i added 2 .015 shims to each cam on cover side of cam. witch left me with clearance of...

#1- .011
#2- .005
#3- .009
#4- .007

so, DR DICK, in you experiance, what do you think about them clearances? i know they are with in spec of FSM but what do you think? not to late to change anything. i used the .015 shims cause of you advise of the thicker the shims the better they hold up. one wasnt enough, and 2 has got me on the tight side of a couple of them.

just something about the looks of all the cam gears i love. they just look really cool!!
http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb385/corygodden/001-24.jpg

also, hey chevelle, i cleaned the hell outa that oil passage in the cover with pipe cleaners too.

DirtyCory
2nd April 2012, 03:32
pistons, rings and cylinders also installed. checked all end gaps and ring groove clearances and cleaned the hell outa my cylinders as mentioned above.

also cleaned the hell outa the oil holes with pipe cleaners too...that also took a long time to get them clean..

http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb385/corygodden/009-5.jpg

http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb385/corygodden/002-21.jpg

ring end gaps were all at .018 and .019 spec says .015-.025, so thats good

http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb385/corygodden/004-15.jpg

ring to piston groove clearance was at .002 spec says that should be .035-.005 then i found out the OEM NOS piston kits ive got are for an 85 motor. and also learned that the ring to groove clearance can be tighter with these pistons. MR GORDON OR IRON MICK, you guys got the 79 on manuals? just to satisfy my curiousity, can one of you tell me the specs for the ring end gaps and ring groove clearance? thanks.

DirtyCory
2nd April 2012, 03:44
here is where its at now,

http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb385/corygodden/010-4.jpg

both cylinders on and block of plate and battery box mounted too. next im gonna tackle the transmission. it always worked fine, but checking clearances i found some things that are not in spec. im gonna need some help here DR DICK..... :) will post more tranny details as i get time through the week.

DirtyCory
4th April 2012, 02:31
tranny time.... although ive never had any problems with the transmission other than i replaced trap door bearing once, i at least wanna check it out. im lost on this part, im sure its not that hard, but its my first time checking all details out on this. ive only replace a trap door bearing in the past and checked endplays witch i have learned that i have did it wrong i think before. the alignment stuff has got me lost too. i read the whole tranny section in FSM and i didnt see any alignment procedures.

anyway, here are a couple problems that i did notice...clearances between clutch faces...

coutershaft low and third gear, spec is .038-.058 i got, .063
http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb385/corygodden/002-24.jpg

countershaft second and third gear, spec is .038-.058 i got, .051 so this one is ok
http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb385/corygodden/003-18.jpg

mainshaft clutch gear and second gear, spec is .043-.083 i got, .034
http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb385/corygodden/004-17.jpg

mainshaft third gear and second gear, spec is .043-.083 i got, .083
http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb385/corygodden/005-13.jpg

so not only do i have some out of spec, it seems i have read somewhere on this forum that they should not only be in spec, but they should have equality too. if i remove a washer ware the clearances are too much, then i dont got enough. not sure what to do.

all the gears and dogs look good to me, i only see one that looks like it has some wear. on the counter shaft low and third gear. correct me if im wrong, but this looks pretty minor?
http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb385/corygodden/007-12.jpg

little tiny chip...
http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb385/corygodden/008-8.jpg

DR DICK, do these photos include what you had told me to post? if not, let me know and i will post more. thanks, Cory

chevelle
4th April 2012, 03:13
On C/S, you want to clearance 2nd photo 1st, then 1st photo.
No need to adjust c/s low gear (using small shims under gear) only to find out you need to change shift fork on other gear and start all over again, you see?
Before you get everything exactly set, you should check end play.
The C/S endplay is somewhat adjustable because the small shims mentioned above will effect your endplay.
I like to spin the shafts while checking clearances also,I stay tighter on the specs, I like the extra engagement.
I think the factory went to larger specs on the M/S in the later years, not sure why,I dont have manuals in front of me.
I think earlier models are all .038-.058" for both C/S & M/S?

The dogs and slots of the gears have a backcut.
If you hold it at eye level you will see the dogs are longer on the left and also taper back towards the right, this keeps the gears meshed together.
Those corners should not be rounded excessively.

Check your shift tower for cracks also while you have it out, the DR saved me once on the tower.

If your forks are not marked they most likely are STD, to compare, set the forks on a flat surface and compare the height of the tits on both, they come in +.020", STD and -.020"
You may be able to swap fork positions to help clearances.
Check the top hats for wear and measure O.D.
Be sure C/S gear thrusting against trap door is perfectly burr free, a nice stone here may save headaches, ask me how I know.
At final assy, be sure the roller thrust washer is against the outer snapring!


I have a bunch of shims, and forks if you figure what you need, I may be able to help.

DirtyCory
4th April 2012, 03:30
thanks chevelle. at the moment im havin a hard time wrapin my mind around this stuff. im sure i can, and i bet once i "get" it, ill think it was pretty simple, i gotta break this stuff down step at a time. ill start with checking the endplays, hopefully tomorrow and post. thanks for the insight. this tranny stuff is new to me. but i dont wanna overlook nothin here. dont want to end up with a busted case cause of a failure i could have fixed.

chevelle
4th April 2012, 03:47
I was just mentioning checking endplay once you have the clearances close, because you can adjust that C/S low gear.
The M/S end play wont change while adjusting dog clearances.
The C/S will if you adjust low gear w/ different shims under gear.
First I would take a look at your forks and see what you have, like I said you may be able to swap forks and get in tolerance.

DirtyCory
4th April 2012, 03:52
I was just mentioning checking endplay once you have the clearances close, because you can adjust that C/S low gear.
The M/S end play wont change while adjusting dog clearances.
The C/S will if you adjust low gear w/ different shims under gear.
First I would take a look at your forks and see what you have, like I said you may be able to swap forks and get in tolerance.

oh, ok. will do, i will get it apart and post some pics with measurements of the forks.

thanks

DirtyCory
5th April 2012, 02:37
shift fork info:

1) all 4 speed forks interchange

2) factory forks
a)52-e69< used two pc welded steel forks. the early k model (52-e54?) were flimsy. the next gen (L54-e69) were not.
b)in late 69 forks got cast on one pc from ampco 18 alum bronze. these were the forks supplied from then on (till 85)
c) in 72 two new forks got added to replacement part list. +.020 & -.020.

3) aftermarket forks are steel. they come in varoius sizes.


fork measurements.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-syDbEYTmC10/T3dvFVdOYGI/AAAAAAAACBk/SklFL8o-WDU/s512/0331021631.jpg

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-stUN7wMwITI/T3dvFmZx3pI/AAAAAAAACBA/IMrY1RQGDhg/s512/0331021633.jpg

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-wc-TQRe-P3k/T3dzWlhaPTI/AAAAAAAACBg/kgnMiK-4Gc0/s512/0331021711.jpg


i measured things refering to this post i seen DR DICK make a lil while ago in a different thread and here is what i came up with. my caliper might be off some, check it against some feeler gauges and it seems to be right, im not sure about the measurements i came up with..... heres what i got for the forks...

the mainshaft shifter fork,
http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb385/corygodden/050.jpg
http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb385/corygodden/048.jpg

the countershaft shifter fork,
http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb385/corygodden/047.jpg
http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb385/corygodden/049.jpg

so, with what you see here, could switching the forks around help the situation here? also, reading in FSM, it says forks can bend. how do i check this? i can not visably see anything bent.

thanks, cory

chevelle
5th April 2012, 03:13
Take for example your last two feeler gauge clearance photos.
You say clutchgear to 2nd is .034", and then next photo 2nd to 3rd is .083".
Not sure what fork you had for M/S, but let's assume its a STD.
If you installed a +.020 that would slide 2nd further from clutch gear by .020 to give you .054.
At the same time it would slide the 2nd closer to 3rd by .020" so that would give you .063" clearance.
I would lay forks on flat surface to check if bent, compare them to each other and check for any major rocking.

DirtyCory
5th April 2012, 03:48
Take for example your last two feeler gauge clearance photos.
You say clutchgear to 2nd is .034", and then next photo 2nd to 3rd is .083".
Not sure what fork you had for M/S, but let's assume its a STD.
If you installed a +.020 that would slide 2nd further from clutch gear by .020 to give you .054.
At the same time it would slide the 2nd closer to 3rd by .020" so that would give you .063" clearance.
I would lay forks on flat surface to check if bent, compare them to each other and check for any major rocking.

oh...okay, its starting to click now, i see what your saying. i will switch them around and check things again, hopefully tomorrow and report back. i think...that i may be the cause of this problem. last year, i replaced trapdoor bearing and i do not remember even taking notice of the different sizes of forks. i could have easily switched them with out taking notice do to my lack of experiance and i didnt know about this forum to ask questions. glad im learning now.

i will check forks for being bent. also, i have noticed a couple of other things. first, about the trap door bearing that is only one year old. NSK bearing, and it seems that it already has a lot of play in it. now this next picture probably is not the right way to measure play in the bearin, but its the only way i could think of to show you guys the play im talking about. in this picture, there isnt anything on the other side of the mainshaft, so i know its gonna move more than it would if it had the entire shaft going through and into the case, but i just wanted to show what im saying. in this picture, i can move the shaft .045 side to side 2 3/4 inces from the bearing race. is this too much? i can really feel it.
http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb385/corygodden/051.jpg

also, it is my understanding that the trap door should have to be tapped onto the dowels. my trap door will slide right on and off without a problem, no tools on or off, just by hand. im thinking this is a problem?

thanks, cory

85mm
5th April 2012, 23:06
[QUOTE=DirtyCory;3882639] in this picture, there isnt anything on the other side of the mainshaft, so i know its gonna move more than it would if it had the entire shaft going through and into the case, but i just wanted to show what im saying. in this picture, i can move the shaft .045 side to side 2 3/4 inces from the bearing race. is this too much? i can really feel it.
[QUOTE]

You must have the other bearing installed to get a good reading on bearing clearance. Also, do not place your indicator on the threads - find a ground surface on the shaft and measure bearing up-down play as close to the bearing as you can. Radial play right at the bearing should be around .001-.002 (this is my guess, I didn't look up the spec). In and out play (axial) will be more (maybe up to .010), but be careful that the bearing isn't sliding in the bore when you do this. Also, some of your radial play may be slop between the bearing race and the bore in the trap door. If this is the case, you probably should get a new trap door. If the trap door is sliding off the dowels, that sounds like it might be a problem too. Maybe not, but look everything over closely to make sure it hasn't been buggered up somehow by a PO.

DR DICK
6th April 2012, 05:53
sorry bout the dissapearin act.

actually been working on projects, so not as much online time.

i think the reason top mount changed in 77 was because it got in the way when puttin a fully assmed motor in frame. with the new sump that fit between frame tubes you needed more finnagelin room.

on my short frame swing arm tin cover bike i added sumtin simular to the 77> top mounts in addtion to the oem center unit. just like what dirt is doin. i know it helps.

along with those mods i added a strut tube to frame between top mount and lower edge of neck casting above front rocker box. then boxed the front motor mount plates to give some side to side rigidity.

at rear frame lower casting added gussets in crotch on top of tube sockets & under shelf that rear mount sits on to stabilize cradle.

boxed swing arm pivot bearing forging. becareful 18" tire will hit it.

these mods made that bike so surefooted and stable that i can stuff it so hard it will slide it in corners like the ricers do.

DR DICK
6th April 2012, 06:31
the way i go about trans build is to break build into bite size pcs than put all pcs together and get em workin in sync.

1st and foremost i check condition of parts that will blow cases apart if they fail.
the most dangerous being both 20t gears. main 3rd and counter 2nd. these are the ones that blew micks cases from breaking in half. 1st sign of future failure is seen in the thin wall between dog slots and id bores in gears where they ride on the shafts. cracks will be seen on the shiny surf of bores. usually at corner of dog slot.

more tomoro

DirtyCory
6th April 2012, 07:22
alright cool. ill inspect all the parts thoroughly after work tomorrow and get some pics up for you to look at. thanks

DirtyCory
7th April 2012, 03:43
alright, well heres pics of all the gears,

c/s low.
http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb385/corygodden/001-25.jpg
http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb385/corygodden/002-25.jpg

c/s 3rd
http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb385/corygodden/003-19.jpg
http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb385/corygodden/004-18.jpg
http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb385/corygodden/005-14.jpg
http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb385/corygodden/006-16.jpg

c/s second, i could get real good pics cause it seems that the c/s drive gear is pressed on the shaft and i gotta figure out a safe way to get it off, if i need to?
http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb385/corygodden/017-6.jpg
http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb385/corygodden/018-5.jpg
http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb385/corygodden/019-5.jpg

i dont see any "cracks at all, but the c/s 2nd has some weird stuff on the inside. at least it looks weird to me, dont no what them holes are about the teeth are "sharper" than the rest too on the c/s second, is this normal?

m/s low,
http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb385/corygodden/007-13.jpg
http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb385/corygodden/021-5.jpg

m/s 2nd
http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb385/corygodden/008-9.jpg
http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb385/corygodden/009-6.jpg
http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb385/corygodden/010-5.jpg

m/s 3rd. seems iffy to me, when cleaning it up, i was getting metal flakes of the inside here, doesnt look right to me either, but i dont know what im looking at really. more wierd marks and holes and stuff.
http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb385/corygodden/013-6.jpg
http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb385/corygodden/014-4.jpg
http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb385/corygodden/015-4.jpg
http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb385/corygodden/016-5.jpg

m/s clutch gear seems to have some wear.
http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb385/corygodden/024-3.jpg
http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb385/corygodden/023-3.jpg
http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb385/corygodden/025-3.jpg

so theres some pics.... i may be wrong, but it seems i may have a considerable amount of wear in this trans? so DR. , what do ya think.

DR DICK
7th April 2012, 20:37
you missed one dirt.

main 2nd female side. thats the 23t with 5 male dogs.

gear names come from what teeth are carrying power in what gear. an understanding of power flow in each gear is essential in order to build and inspect trans parts. asm trans on door and study it so you can trace power flow all the way from input to output in each gear. including splines and dogs. you want to know this stuff.

did ya go and look on mick's exploded thread? that should explain why the 20t gears look like crap.

now the clutch gear dogs do have some milage left. but i see some kind of tooth surface hijinks happening. whats that?

as does the 17t 1st gear. the wear u see on this one is on the downshift side. dont mean squat. good on this one.

get better pics of female slots in both 23t.

in mean time go back to this setup
http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb385/corygodden/051.jpg

we're gonna use it to check for bent main shaft.
grease in the 23 rollers in case race.
put main low gear 27t on mainshaft. undercut face to rollers.
put minshaft thrust washer on main shft next. worn side of wash to gear.
install the ms sub assm into rollers.
install door again. bolts tite.
hook up ind just like before. near end of clutch gear.
while holdin clutch gear stationary, from other end spin main shaft inside it. read ind.
ms induced runout less than.004 ok.

now move ind to just past inner end of clutchgear splines.
do opposite spin this time
hold ms from turning and spin clutch gear.
ind reads misaligmnent from od of cg compared to centerline of cg inner bearing/bushing. misalign here may cause clutch engagement assaches.

now set ind up on right side of ms to check end play.
info 1st. then endplay check.
when you pull clutch lever, release mechanism in pri cover pushes on cg.
forcing the cg to the right (as viewed sitting on bike) reducing ms end play. you need to hold clutch gear like this when checking end play. 005 is min.

a correctly running trans will not wear alum bronze forks very much. steel forks do tend to wear at a quicker rate. som wear was showing on one of yours better pics an some micrometer measurements.

for brnz forks to wear they need to drag in gear grooves. are ur grooves funny? is there any heat discoloration on gears near grooves?

DR DICK
7th April 2012, 20:50
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-3EQlRkB8TaA/T4CYpdr6RUI/AAAAAAAACEk/SWfeTIiRVH4/s512/main%25203rd%2520cracked%2520yes%2520no.jpg

DirtyCory
7th April 2012, 21:13
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-3EQlRkB8TaA/T4CYpdr6RUI/AAAAAAAACEk/SWfeTIiRVH4/s512/main%25203rd%2520cracked%2520yes%2520no.jpg

im looking at it now and i dont see a crack here, just looks like crap on the inside and flakes of metal were coming off of it when i was cleaing it. ill post some more pics and pics of the main 2nd.

i gotta wrap my head around the other infor you gave me and ill post it tonight. what you think about the trap door not fitting tightly on the dowels? thanks.

cory

DR DICK
7th April 2012, 21:19
the later bikes didnt fit as tight over dowels as the 76< did.

yours isnt loose though, right? more like a size for size slip fit?

DirtyCory
7th April 2012, 21:31
the later bikes didnt fit as tight over dowels as the 76< did.

yours isnt loose though, right? more like a size for size slip fit?

gonna upload a video of it now...

DirtyCory
7th April 2012, 21:42
i dont feel like i can twist the door at all on the dowels, but it seems to be real loose to me.

002-26.mp4 video by corygodden - Photobucket

DR DICK
7th April 2012, 21:45
this gold stuff is fork material
more pics
http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb385/corygodden/006-16.jpg

and this really looks like a crack.
its in the usuall place. were cross section changes thickness.
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-IeF_Vnppe5s/T4CmEPoHNVI/AAAAAAAACE8/CjDbalB6TIo/s512/013-6.jpg

DirtyCory
7th April 2012, 22:10
this gold stuff is fork material
more pics
http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb385/corygodden/006-16.jpg

and this really looks like a crack.
its in the usuall place. were cross section changes thickness.
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-IeF_Vnppe5s/T4CmEPoHNVI/AAAAAAAACE8/CjDbalB6TIo/s512/013-6.jpg

your right. i took some 2000 grit emery and cleaned it one more time and took a better look in a different angle and light, and i see it now..

http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb385/corygodden/010-6.jpg

and another one here just to the right of the reflection or the light shining area. hard to see in pic but i see it.
http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb385/corygodden/011-6.jpg

gotta look better at other 20 tooth now

DirtyCory
7th April 2012, 22:14
also, here is the female side of the m/s second
http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb385/corygodden/005-15.jpg
http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb385/corygodden/004-19.jpg
http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb385/corygodden/003-20.jpg