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jayman79
17th December 2011, 16:28
Hey all! Let me start by saying I've done a lot of research on here regarding cams, stage kits, etc and I'm confused as hell hahaha. I have a 09 Custom with v&h straight shots, NRHS Hurricane air cleaner and a tuner.

Now, my main question is....will the stock heads from my bike work if I go with the NRHS 1250 kit i.e. with new pistons & a set of SE .551 cams? Or do I need to get head work done on my stock set as well? There is a ton of info on here but I get more confused trying to track down what is needed. I'm not looking ti drag my bike or anything, just hot rod it up.

Rico 05R
17th December 2011, 16:38
You'll need head work to take advantage of the .551 cams.

rocketmangb
17th December 2011, 16:42
the 551 cams just dont seem to work as well as 536 or 575's from what i read
1250 kit with headwork and 536's might be the deal

jayman79
17th December 2011, 17:07
I plan on calling NRHS to speak with them about whatwould work best. Has anyone sent their heads & cylinders to them for work?

Rico 05R
17th December 2011, 17:09
I plan on calling NRHS to speak with them about whatwould work best. Has anyone sent their heads & cylinders to them for work?

Lots of people on here have.

Bob F
17th December 2011, 17:10
Doing your research here is a very good idea but do exactly what Dan tells you to. He knows what combinations work best together.

aswracing
17th December 2011, 17:15
551's are bolt-ins on an '09, meaning they'll work with your stock heads and pistons.

The SE 536's are more cam, despite the slightly smaller lift. They'll work fine with stock rubber mount 1200 heads, but not your stock pistons, as the clearance to the exhaust valve is generally not enough.

Basically, the 536's are broader than the 551's. They have more overlap and a later intake close event. They're a proven street performance cam.

The 575's are a little broader yet, but they require a new spring pack.

Some people have also had a lot of valvetrain noise when using 551's.

Your stock heads nose over, flow-wise, at 500 lift, so any of these cams will really shine with some head work that extends the lift at which the flow noses-over.

Good luck.

aswracing
17th December 2011, 17:33
I should say too that cams don't work in isolation, and you really shouldn't look at them that way.

Cylinder fill is the goal, and cylinder fill is a function of a whole bunch of things, including port and valve size and shape, pressure waves in the intake and exhaust, pumping losses, and cam timing.

It's entirely possible to create a situation where for example cam grind A makes more bottom end power than cam grind B, and yet when you change the exhaust, cam grind B makes more bottom end power than cam grind A. In fact, that's a fairly common scenario. Getting the cams and the pipe on the same page is critical.

Similarly, the head work needs to be matched to the rest of the combination. Port and valve sizes need to be matched to the displacement and rpm (collectively, the airflow requirement); too big or too small reduces cylinder fill.

jayman79
18th December 2011, 00:41
So if I understand you correctly, I could keep my cylinders stock, use .536's or N6's, and have the headwork done with some hurricane pistons and realistically see a pretty good improvement on hp & torque.....given its all correctly tuned in?

Sorry I keep asking questions....just trying to understand it all?

551's are bolt-ins on an '09, meaning they'll work with your stock heads and pistons.

The SE 536's are more cam, despite the slightly smaller lift. They'll work fine with stock rubber mount 1200 heads, but not your stock pistons, as the clearance to the exhaust valve is generally not enough.

Basically, the 536's are broader than the 551's. They have more overlap and a later intake close event. They're a proven street performance cam.

The 575's are a little broader yet, but they require a new spring pack.

Some people have also had a lot of valvetrain noise when using 551's.

Your stock heads nose over, flow-wise, at 500 lift, so any of these cams will really shine with some head work that extends the lift at which the flow noses-over.

Good luck.

aswracing
18th December 2011, 01:13
So if I understand you correctly, I could keep my cylinders stock, use .536's or N6's, and have the headwork done with some hurricane pistons and realistically see a pretty good improvement on hp & torque.....given its all correctly tuned in?

Oh, absolutely. Either of those cams will work with your stock heads. But yes, valve to piston clearance would be a concern. Any good aftermarket piston with large valve pockets will likely provide the clearance you need though. Personally I'd recommend getting the lightest pistons you can. The less weight the crank has to fling around, the less vibration and more power you'll make.

maru
18th December 2011, 01:15
Often the first thing that folks do is the things they feel most comfortable with. They change the exhaust and the air filter- so called stage 1. Often the exhaust is selected for its looks- same for the intake side.

When the search for power gets more serious that exhaust choice can become a road block to real power or enjoyable power. Often guys settle for what they have and convince themselves they like the look or the sound. The alternative is to buy twice. This buying twice syndrome is common- I have done it several times- countless times really. Buying twice is also expensive.

This is why the whole build should be considered before a single part is purchased. Thinking may give you a headache but it is cheap.

jayman79
18th December 2011, 02:37
Do you know enough about the NRHS Hurricane pistons to know if they are considered a light piston? I now they have quality parts! If I can go with buying pistons and cams & keep ky cylinders and heads stock, then I could keep my costs down considerably and get what im looking for.

Oh, absolutely. Either of those cams will work with your stock heads. But yes, valve to piston clearance would be a concern. Any good aftermarket piston with large valve pockets will likely provide the clearance you need though. Personally I'd recommend getting the lightest pistons you can. The less weight the crank has to fling around, the less vibration and more power you'll make.

aswracing
18th December 2011, 03:05
Yes, but I'm not going to comment on another company's products.

Take a close look, though at the Sledge Hammer pistons (http://www.hammerperf.com/xltopend.shtml#Sledge%20Hammer%20Pistons):

http://www.hammerperf.com/images/pistonunderside.jpg

This is a special forging designed with extra ribbing to add strength and save weight. One of the main things it does is allows a shorter wrist pin, which is both stronger and lighter.

Rico 05R
18th December 2011, 03:20
Aaron...do the X forged pistons enjoy any benefit cooling wise from the oil jets, as compared to a more conventional piston?

jayman79
18th December 2011, 03:20
Thanks for clearing things up a bit for me!

Yes, but I'm not going to comment on another company's products.

Take a close look, though at the Sledge Hammer pistons (http://www.hammerperf.com/xltopend.shtml#Sledge%20Hammer%20Pistons):

http://www.hammerperf.com/images/pistonunderside.jpg

This is a special forging designed with extra ribbing to add strength and save weight. One of the main things it does is allows a shorter wrist pin, which is both stronger and lighter.

aswracing
18th December 2011, 03:27
Aaron...do the X forged pistons enjoy any benefit cooling wise from the oil jets, as compared to a more conventional piston?

It's not a claim I'm willing to make without some data to back it up, and I haven't heard that claim from CP either. Just looking at the design, you'd think the oil could certainly get to the underside of the dome on each side better, since it's much more exposed. But aluminum conducts heat pretty well, too, so who knows.

Rico 05R
18th December 2011, 03:29
It's not a claim I'm willing to make without some data to back it up, and I haven't heard that claim from CP either. Just looking at the design, you'd think the oil could certainly get to the underside of the dome on each side better, since it's much more exposed. But aluminum conducts heat pretty well, too, so who knows.

Thank you Sir.

XLFREAK
18th December 2011, 03:35
Just curious, but will it be a huge difference in power and all that going from a 1200 to 1250?

jayman79
18th December 2011, 04:00
How do I determine what my stick cylinder bore size is....also what done type would I need?

Yes, but I'm not going to comment on another company's products.

Take a close look, though at the Sledge Hammer pistons (http://www.hammerperf.com/xltopend.shtml#Sledge%20Hammer%20Pistons):

http://www.hammerperf.com/images/pistonunderside.jpg

This is a special forging designed with extra ribbing to add strength and save weight. One of the main things it does is allows a shorter wrist pin, which is both stronger and lighter.

jayman79
18th December 2011, 04:00
Crap.....stock not stick.

aswracing
18th December 2011, 04:46
Your stock bore size is 3.497.

The dome that's designed for your your heads is the upper right one in this picture:

http://www.hammerperf.com/images/sledgehammerpistons.jpg

Although we also very commonly use the piston on the upper left, after making a matching cut in the chamber.

Read all about the chambers and squish bands here. (http://www.hammerperf.com/ttcheckingsquish.shtml)

mick42
18th December 2011, 05:01
Jayman,

I sent Dan @ NRHS the stock XB heads and cylinders from my 05 1200R. They came back as stage2 light heads and 1212cc cylinders with domed 10.5:1 hurrican pistons for about 1200 bucks.

I don't think your butt would notice the 38cc difference between a 1212cc and a 1250cc sportster. Mine doesn't and I've been on a few 1250's.

I also saved a couple hundred over the 1250 path which I spent on a set of N4 cams.

The exhaust system(s) is where I wasted a lot of money. :tour

rottenralph
18th December 2011, 05:42
I like that top right piston. Is there a higher compression version for standard 2004 and later bathtub shaped chamber for those of us that don't want our heads cut to fit pop ups.

jayman79
18th December 2011, 06:17
Ok, damn I'm lost again hahaha. So, lets say if I purchased the rectangle dome pistons 10.5:1 3.515 pistons, they would workfine with my stock bore size, which is 3.497, my stock heads....hell basically stock everything & N6 Cams? Dude sooner or later it's gonna click for me.....either that or you are going to tell me to eff off hahaha.

Your stock bore size is 3.497.

The dome that's designed for your your heads is the upper right one in this picture:

http://www.hammerperf.com/images/sledgehammerpistons.jpg

Although we also very commonly use the piston on the upper left, after making a matching cut in the chamber.

Read all about the chambers and squish bands here. (http://www.hammerperf.com/ttcheckingsquish.shtml)

rocketmangb
18th December 2011, 06:25
I think I see my new pistons !

Top Center !

Should fit these nicely !

http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u7/rocketmangb/Big%20Banana%20Build%20Cylinder%20Heads/StageIIIHEADS004.jpg

jayman79
18th December 2011, 06:45
Something similar to that was my initial plan. However, if I can accomplish roughly the same result via upgrading my Cams & Pistons I would save even more. I'm not trying to cut any corners here....just looking for a good increase in hp & torque for street use without breaking hurting my wallet more than needed.

Jayman,

I sent Dan @ NRHS the stock XB heads and cylinders from my 05 1200R. They came back as stage2 light heads and 1212cc cylinders with domed 10.5:1 hurrican pistons for about 1200 bucks.

I don't think your butt would notice the 38cc difference between a 1212cc and a 1250cc sportster. Mine doesn't and I've been on a few 1250's.

I also saved a couple hundred over the 1250 path which I spent on a set of N4 cams.

The exhaust system(s) is where I wasted a lot of money. :tour

rocketmangb
18th December 2011, 06:53
Jayman

Even a good Hi Perf valve job will help a lot

Short side radius and seat angles mean a bunch

aswracing
18th December 2011, 16:06
Ok, damn I'm lost again hahaha. So, lets say if I purchased the rectangle dome pistons 10.5:1 3.515 pistons, they would workfine with my stock bore size, which is 3.497, my stock heads....hell basically stock everything & N6 Cams? Dude sooner or later it's gonna click for me.....either that or you are going to tell me to eff off hahaha.

For 3.497 bore, you'll probably have to go with either a Wiseco or the SE piston. Not sure what Wiseco has, but I'm pretty sure SE has a similar piston in standard bore. We don't offer it, simply because it's a small market for people who aren't reconditioning their cylinders, so we'd get a bunch of money tied up in inventory for something that doesn't move.

However, if I can accomplish roughly the same result via upgrading my Cams & Pistons I would save even more. I'm not trying to cut any corners here....just looking for a good increase in hp & torque for street use without breaking hurting my wallet more than needed.

I hope I haven't misled you, but raising the compression and broadening the cam timing, while they'll give you a good bump (assuming your pipe cooperates), it's not really going to compare to head porting. Porting takes it to the next level, by really addressing the thing that holds the motor back once you've raised compression and fitted some cams.

If what you're trying to accomplish is a noticeable bump in power, without a big expense, and the ability to build on it later with some head porting, then sure, your plan is a good one.

jayman79
18th December 2011, 16:32
Ok, I've combed thru information on both NRHS & the Website + Info you provided me with and understand what I need to do. You didn't mislead me @ all, I'm going to go with Headwork, & Bore Work to get what I'm looking for. The way I look @ it is, if I'm going to do it I might as well have it done completely! Thanks for the guidance.

For 3.497 bore, you'll probably have to go with either a Wiseco or the SE piston. Not sure what Wiseco has, but I'm pretty sure SE has a similar piston in standard bore. We don't offer it, simply because it's a small market for people who aren't reconditioning their cylinders, so we'd get a bunch of money tied up in inventory for something that doesn't move.



I hope I haven't misled you, but raising the compression and broadening the cam timing, while they'll give you a good bump (assuming your pipe cooperates), it's not really going to compare to head porting. Porting takes it to the next level, by really addressing the thing that holds the motor back once you've raised compression and fitted some cams.

If what you're trying to accomplish is a noticeable bump in power, without a big expense, and the ability to build on it later with some head porting, then sure, your plan is a good one.

Lenster
18th December 2011, 16:42
I'm going to go with Headwork, & Bore Work to get what I'm looking for. The way I look @ it is, if I'm going to do it I might as well have it done completely! Thanks for the guidance.

Wise decision. :clap :smoke

aswracing
18th December 2011, 16:48
Jayman, when you put this together, take the time to optimize your squish clearance (http://www.hammerperf.com/ttcheckingsquish.shtml), it's free power with reduced detonation.

Also, we have some engine kit installation instructions (http://www.hammerperf.com/ttinstallkit.shtml) you may find helpful. I don't mind if you use them on someone else's kit ;)

Good luck on your project!

aswracing
18th December 2011, 17:06
Oh, and I looked in the SE catalog ...

http://www.aswracing.com/pictures/sepistons.jpg

They do have pistons in standard bore. So if you're set on not reconditioning your cylinders, these pistons would work.

Personally, I'd lean toward the SE536's over the N6's with the head work you're talking about. The heads will be able to take advantage of them. Make sure the person porting your heads understands your intentions and sets them up for the cams. Your stock spring pack will work fine with those cams too.

rocketmangb
18th December 2011, 17:10
The shorter wrist pin reduces over all piston weight

HINT HINT

jayman79
18th December 2011, 19:18
Thanks for all of the help!!!

Lenster
18th December 2011, 23:33
Hey George, is that a 30 degree squish band?

I think I see my new pistons !

Top Center !

Should fit these nicely !

http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u7/rocketmangb/Big%20Banana%20Build%20Cylinder%20Heads/StageIIIHEADS004.jpg

rocketmangb
18th December 2011, 23:39
I sure hope so !

Shoebob
19th December 2011, 03:14
Good info... Question.. After Jayman completes his upgrade, will the ECM have to be "re-tuned" ?

Bob