I thought I had bought a 1200R!!

[jwillie]

Saturday I went in to the dealer with my bike's title and a blank check. Wanted to trade for a 1200R. He told me he was selling it at MSRP (like he was doing me a favor), the other costs, fees, taxes, etc. involved and we agreed to a trade-in value for my bike. Then when we subtracted everything, we were $1,500 apart in our math!!! He never showed me anything in writing and occasionally he would show me a computer screen and then quickly turn it back around to face him. We got closer on price, but then it was getting close to closing time and I just blew it off. MY QUESTION IS...just how many different kind of costs do they stick in there? He was talking prep, destination, assembly, yada, yada, yada....What is the reality?

[klown]

They will stick dealer prep costs on there, that could be about $600. Then documentation fees could be another $100, then he might have put an extended warranty on there. You should ask him for the settlement sheet, it will have all of the costs spelled out for you. You got to be careful buying from stealers, there in the business to make money not be buddies with us.

[lefty]

jwillie,

I bought two new HDs in 04 so I'm familiar with the routine you are describing. I was more astute w/the second purchase and got a better deal. In December I bought a bike @ MSRP and incurred two additional charges, $195 for freight (as indicated in the HD catalog) and $195 for "dealer setup" (setup is mentioned as a possible charge on the last page of the little HD catalog under *8). My dealer told me (no reason for me to either believe or disbelieve, but this is what he said), "Setup takes 3 hours and our hourly charge is $65." I was ok w/MSRP + $380 for freight and setup.

Lefty

[jwillie]

The bike had no extras, and was $8,800. The ride out price was about $10,300. Sales tax was negligible (maybe $200) since I was trading in a bike (and in Texas you can offset trade-ins against purchase price for sales tax purposes). So that would put me up to about $9,000. The other $1,300 came out of phrases like those mentioned previously (set-up, delivery, registration, even assembly(?), glad they don't do that with cars!). I don't mind a little of that BS, but $1,300 sounds like a lot of BS.

[pilot]

To touch on "assembly". A very close friend of mine runs an outfit here that assembles all of the jap cruisers and crotchies for about 9 stealerships in eastern NC. They are paid $50 per bike by the dealer to do this, then the dealers charge $250-$350 to the customer for this. HD "assenmbles all of their bikes, they don't farm it out like Honda, Suzuki, etc. So what exactly do they "assemble"? I have personally helped with that when my friends co. has gotten really slammed, but its basically putting the bars, hand controls, and battery in the bike. I have seen HD bikes in their crate before and I think they require even less "assembly". Its just a BS charge in my opinion. :shhhh

[jwillie]

I seem to recall seeing a discussion, not too long ago, on the topic of dealer fees and charges and what you can reaaly expect to pay. However, I cannot find it. Does anyone else recall the forum? It seems like it was someone buying a first bike and going for an 883.

Thanks,
jwillie

[xl1200r]

I bought my xl1200r last may, and put my deposit down the previous November. My dealer also sold me the bike for MSRP (mine was Lava Red with the security system). The dealer threw in some extra charges, to be expected. Setup was only like $30 or $60. Frieght was the standard $195, tax was whatever 7.5% came to, and my registration fees ($31), which would be the same for any vehicle. Thay also charged $16 for a plate to put my inspection sticker on so I didn't have to put it on the fork. When everything was said and done I paid exactly $10,500. Keep in mind I had more tax than you as I didn't have a trade.

As far as "assembly" goes:
My bike was 2 months late comming in, so they called me within the hour the bike showed up. I went down to see it and all that had been done is it was taken out of the crate. It was sitting in the shop on the kickstand exactly how it was packed. There's NOTHING to assemble. Everything is already installed. The clutch lever is taped to the grip to keep is disengaged, and the mirrors are turned inwards so they don't snag anything. Other than that there's just some of that vinyl film to protect the paint. No assembly required.

[RedRider]

Set up also includes cleaning & detailing of the bike before purchase...

Obviously some dealers are getting more mark-up on the set up than others are. :frownthre

[thunderpaw]

Just got my '05 1200R in October. Total out the door, including all taxes, fees, etc. was $9605. I felt it was a fair price.

Kim

[wickedsprint]

Thunderpaw..that is exactly what my local dealer wanted out the door for an 05 as well..that is a heluva deal.

[xena]

jwillie I had a similar experience in June at Boston Harley where I bought my bike. My OTD cost (included sales tax, title, registration plate, etc.) for a silver 04' XL883 with a lowering kit installed was 8100. I did pay MSRP for the bike itself, it's the freight/prep charge that they jacked way up. OTD cost will differ a little bit due to differences in sales tax around the Country.
I didn't have to do a thing except bring it home and ride so the 8100.00 total cost was fine with me.....of course within a couple of months I added over 1k worth of stuff, but that's a whole nuther thread topic now isn't it.

[Irondrake77]

I heard it's best to negotiate the price of the bike you're buying first and get all that info on your side, before you start talking about the trade in, so they don't start switching numbers somwhere on you.

[willprevale]

Dealers and Stealers. Doesn't much matter. It's what they do. As long as you pay the average out the door price, yer doin' well.

One of the good things about this forum. We don't have to get ripped off. :clap

[mikeLI_77]

asking price by me starts at $9500.00 before anything. i was told by a few people that if i was buying new not to expect to walk out the door spending less than $11,000.00

[rider1951]

Last May I paid $11,300 out the door for a 1200 Custom included was a removable rack and back rest, pipes, air kit and jets. They even delivered to my door which was 180 miles away. The bike showed up clean and ran great. After 3700 miles it still runs great. They did forget to bring the stock pieces so they shipped them to me. They also threw in 3 dealer t-shirts of my choice. It beat the deals near me but was still a little higher than it should have been but I'm not very good at negociating.

[mountbkr]

My OTD price was $9485 no extras for my 04 1200r I purchased a detachable sissy bar and adjustable highway pegs for additional $485 put them on my self
bought it at Schaffer Harlydavidson really a great place to buy from they do rentals there. I got my 1000 mile check done for the cost of fluids and lots of coupons. I also have a card for 15% off parts and clothing. :smoke

[Stephen Hawk]

OK, considering I have roughly 30 years experience within this realm lets try this. MSRP, this is the price the manufacturer suggests a vehivle is sold for however, it is a common practice to pack a deal with items like custom striping, set up fees and anything else that can make a buck. Therefore, the bike, car or truck may be nowhere close to MSRP when the deal goes down. So, this is how I work it. When I go to the dealer the first thing I do is find the bike I want. If they have it I pull the VIN and ask to see the new vehicle sales manager. When I get to this person I give him the VIN and tell him I would like to purchase the bike. When we get in an office to work the deal I tell him I am willing to pay NO MORE than MSRP plus shipping, license, doc fees and sales tax. Now, one of two things is going to happen here, either he will sell me the bike or he won't. In this case he did and I paid $10,097 out the door and ready to roll for a 2004 XL1200R complete with alarm and turn signal brake lamp adapter kit installed. Now, in the case of my 04 Yamaha crotch rocket things were a bit different because the bike was new to the country and extremely hard to find. Therefore, I paid MSRP plus $250.00 and this was after haggling for an hour. Hey, it was $500.00 until I told the guy I would cash him out. Dealers like making those last minute deals at the end of a month. It bolsters their sales report.


Bottom line is the MSRP. That's what the manufacturer tells me it's worth and that's what I am paying. If they won't sell it for that price plus the manditory fees like license and tax, somebody else will, trust me.

Stephen Hawk

[gamhill]

In Georgia, just about all car dealers have a standard "doc fee" of 499.

The reason for this is that they use this money to pay the admin folks, and well as related expense of 'doing business', (i.e. keeping the lights on). In just about all cases, they won't reduce, or waive this fee. If your really lucky - you might be able to have them drop the cost of the sale by 500 to off set this, you might need to "walk away" a time or two, but I've done it several times. The sales team is paid from a different bucket.

The MSRP is a suggestion, you'll also hear terms like the invoice price etc. There is also lots of incentive money that the dealer has access to, some of this is based on how long the car was on the lot, etc. The fact that some dealers may sell above the MSRP for a 'hot' model, or 'to help' during the slow season also bugs me.

What really gets about all of these extra fees is that the mnfg is in the business to sale cars or bikes. Shouldn't they be ready to go when you buy it? Shouldn't the cost of dealer prep, shipping, title, etc. be built into the cost upfront?

Think about, if you buy a TV at Walmart, you pay a set price, this includes all of the costs that the store incurred.

I'm just amazed at how the dealers pass the costs of doing business to the consumer.

[vetteguy]

gamhill, I agree w/ you 100%. When I buy a gal. of milk at the store I do not pay a delivery and set up fee, it is built in to the price. I think they should do the same w/ cars and bikes. I realize it will cost the same no matter what it is just the principle. If you lived right next to the Harley plant and bought your bike at a dealer right next to the plant , they would still charge you $195 delivery, same as if you lived 2000k miles away. WTF. Is this fair? When you buy a new Corvette there is an option to have "Museum Delivery". It cost like $500 and you pick it up at a ceremony at the Corvette Museum, right next to the plant in Bowling Green. Guess what? In addition to paying $500 for the privelige of picking up the car at the museum, they still charge you the standard shipping fee. What a ripoff. They make $645 to drive the car a block. Guy

[Nightboy]

I paid around $8700 for my wife's 04' Basically I got it at MSRP plus the destination charge($195 I believe) and about $75 for documentation charge. I have no tax in my state. But the other fees like "prep","assembly" or whater the BS is that they want to call it, are just extra ways of taggin on extra money. If they are really selling the bike at MSRP, you should be ONLY paying for MSRP,destination charge(which is normally not negotiable),and documentation(title and registration paperwork, and it shouldnt be any more than about $75-$100 tops)fees. And of course any state tax. But if you see other "charges", dont pay em, they are just add-ons for the stealer to make more money for BS that doesnt exist.

[barry1967]

Mine was 8880 out of the dealer. 8675 for a color, 185 shipping and 20 for a temporary plate.

At the DMV it was 607.25 sales tax, 25.00 title fee, 6.00 plate fee and 30.00 for 2 yrs Reg. Total cost 9550.00 or so.

[gamhill]

vetteguy --

And I bet that gallon of milk is ready to use right?

My real issue is "why can't they just be upfront?" I don't mind paying the fees including title. Why is it that the 'dealers' - both car and bike thing they need to BS the customer?

Don't get me started on the mattress industry ... Talk about comparing apples to oranges ....

[Russ]

In Georgia, just about all car dealers have a standard "doc fee" of 499.

The reason for this is that they use this money to pay the admin folks, and well as related expense of 'doing business', (i.e. keeping the lights on). In just about all cases, they won't reduce, or waive this fee. If your really lucky - you might be able to have them drop the cost of the sale by 500 to off set this, you might need to "walk away" a time or two, but I've done it several times. The sales team is paid from a different bucket.

The MSRP is a suggestion, you'll also hear terms like the invoice price etc. There is also lots of incentive money that the dealer has access to, some of this is based on how long the car was on the lot, etc. The fact that some dealers may sell above the MSRP for a 'hot' model, or 'to help' during the slow season also bugs me.

What really gets about all of these extra fees is that the mnfg is in the business to sale cars or bikes. Shouldn't they be ready to go when you buy it? Shouldn't the cost of dealer prep, shipping, title, etc. be built into the cost upfront?

Think about, if you buy a TV at Walmart, you pay a set price, this includes all of the costs that the store incurred.

I'm just amazed at how the dealers pass the costs of doing business to the consumer.

As a former car salesman who's had to re-close many deals because of some bogus $495 fee, let me tell ya, it's not there to pay any admin costs, or pay for vehicle prep, or pay the non-sales staff, or whatever other BS they tell you it is. It's simply another profit tool. Period. End of discussion.

[Nightboy]

Yep, so to sum it all up:

Pay for actual MSRP of bike
Vehicle destination($195)
Title/documentation fee($50-$100)

Do not pay for anything else!

Harly is now making more product than the current demand, so dont let em lure you in with any BS. I have been to alot of dealerships loaded with new 03' and 04' models still. Alot of dealerships now sell at or slightly below MSRP.

[vetteguy]

vetteguy --

And I bet that gallon of milk is ready to use right?

My real issue is "why can't they just be upfront?" I don't mind paying the fees including title. Why is it that the 'dealers' - both car and bike thing they need to BS the customer?

Don't get me started on the mattress industry ... Talk about comparing apples to oranges ....
I agree , just be up front and tell me what the price of the bike is and don't add a couple grand worth of BS. Guy

[jwillie]

Thanks for all of the great advice. We are getting close to a deal now. Hope to pull it off this week. I have definitely gotten down to a decent deal, based on everyone's feedback. I will let you know when I cross over.

jwillie

[Nightboy]

Thanks for all of the great advice. We are getting close to a deal now. Hope to pull it off this week. I have definitely gotten down to a decent deal, based on everyone's feedback. I will let you know when I cross over.

jwillieDont let em stick you a "decent" deal. Too many dealers in TX that sell at MSRP. Be smart. Give them your number, tell them you already have better offers on the table. Look at obvious signs.

A. How many Sportys are just sitting in the showroom?
B. What time of year is it?(cold weather during this time of year favors you)
C. What part of the month is it? Its easier making a deal towards the end of the month.
D. Call up other dealers see what they sell them for.
E. How busy is the dealership? If it isnt busy, it favors you.

Also if you are financing through the dealership, then DO NOT pay more than MSRP. The dealership makes money(normally 1-2 interest points, sometimes even more) from the bank if you finance through them.

[Coolride]

To touch on "assembly". A very close friend of mine runs an outfit here that assembles all of the jap cruisers and crotchies for about 9 stealerships in eastern NC. They are paid $50 per bike by the dealer to do this, then the dealers charge $250-$350 to the customer for this. HD "assenmbles all of their bikes, they don't farm it out like Honda, Suzuki, etc. So what exactly do they "assemble"? I have personally helped with that when my friends co. has gotten really slammed, but its basically putting the bars, hand controls, and battery in the bike. I have seen HD bikes in their crate before and I think they require even less "assembly". Its just a BS charge in my opinion. :shhhh
I used to work for a Kawsaki dealer after school, back when I was in high school, and when I used to get done with all my chores, like emptying garbage cans,sweeping,etc.,etc..I would then prep a couple bikes before I go home.It just included, checking the oil, charging the batt., plugging in the wiring harnesses to the lights and stuff, and fueling, and swing the handle bars up to riding position, and thats it.It took about an hour, but I had to wait over night for the battery to charge. :tour

[jwillie]

All right!!! I did buy the Sporty yesterday! Good news is that, while we were dickering, a new vivid black 1200R came in and we worked the deal that I had originally proposed (including my trade-in). I am one happy camper, and I think they were just glad to get me out of their hair. And, I love, LOVE, the bike. I just wish I hadn't waited so long to buy one.

[Alasportster]

At the risk of getting flogged unmercifully, (ok, what else is new?) I'll just say this. What we have to pay is partially up to us. I'm as guilty as the next person.

But how about this scenario? After the second quarter, April, May, June, HD notes that it's sales are off by 31% from the same period the year before.

After some checking, it seems dealers are uniform in reporting that, for some reason, many customers are coming into the stores and saying, "I'll pay MSRP, minus 100 bucks, + 195 freight, + 50 setup, and what ever is required by the government for title, tax, license, etc. After the dealers say "are you crazy???", potential buyers say, "I used to be, but not anymore", and leave.

Rekon there would be some late summer/early fall deals made? It's all up to us - if we really want the price to be lower, we can have it.

Results??? HD's stockholders don't get quite as much in dividends, profits for HD and dealers, although certainly reasonable, are not at record levels. I don't have a problem with any of that.

[jwillie]

Well, since I started this thread, I guess I need to update my situation. I am very glad to report that I finally did buy a 2005 XL1200R-Vivid Black and am very happy with the deal, trade-in , and service that I ultimately received. They do seem to be negotiating a little more than I have ever noticed in the past. Love the bike and love this forum. Some day I will have to write about my maiden voyage home. Has to do with other peoples' perceptions and was pretty funny...at least I thought so. Thanks for all of the great feedback.

jwillie

[Alasportster]

I hope you enjoy - and tell us the story about your first ride.