PDA

View Full Version : Need to use shim on CVP Velocity Needle? ?


Loony
29th March 2013, 14:21
Just about to swap my emulsion tube and stock needle for a CVP versions.

http://www.cv-performance.com/cvp-velocity-needle/

http://www.cv-performance.com/cvp-ve...emulsion-tube/

The stock needle has a plastic shim (0.81mm thickness) under it,

Should I continue to use the shim under the new CVP Velocity needle?

I am running a 2004 roadster :

TC88A Rico Jester III map,
Stock CV carb,
EZ adjust screw,
45 Pilot,
180 main,
K&N air filter,
SE II Slip ons, with thunder city copy type baffles

Stock Cams (AFAIK)

Thanks

rocketmangb
29th March 2013, 17:48
Looney
Never saw a stock shim under a needle !

Loony
29th March 2013, 21:17
Thanks mate,

I have rebuilt the carb (no shim) with the dodgy enrichner valve(new one next week), it's just sooo damn cold here its beyond miserable. This time last year was in the 20 degrees c.

bike runs ok ATM.

Loony
1st April 2013, 22:46
Took bike out today and adjusted the IMS. Weather is bitter cold. I found that the bike would stumble at full in and then at 3 turns out. set the screw at 1.5 turns.

45 pilot
180 main

Bike seems to running rich at idle (sooty base ring) and there is some hesitation at low acceleration.

I have a new starter valve coming, I am convinced that the new one will stop the soot. I notice that the RPMs drop while the bike is standing still(like waiting at lights), pointing to a rich environment.

If the valve doesn't solve the problem what adjustments would you suggest before testing and a plug drop?

should I be looking at changing height of the needle before I swap to a smaller pilot?

rocketmangb
1st April 2013, 23:21
Needle wont affect the pilot at idle

Loony
1st April 2013, 23:25
Think I need to get the carb off and have a good investigate. Brains gone to mush now.

rocketmangb
1st April 2013, 23:26
The engine HAS to be fully warmed up before you can set the idle mix or idle speed.

Loony
1st April 2013, 23:29
Yep noted. I will get into it in the morning, Thanks Rocket :)

wedge
2nd April 2013, 01:53
Just about to swap my emulsion tube and stock needle for a CVP versions.

http://www.cv-performance.com/cvp-velocity-needle/

http://www.cv-performance.com/cvp-ve...emulsion-tube/

The stock needle has a plastic shim (0.81mm thickness) under it,

Should I continue to use the shim under the new CVP Velocity needle?

I am running a 2004 roadster :

TC88A Rico Jester III map,
Stock CV carb,
EZ adjust screw,
45 Pilot,
180 main,
K&N air filter,
SE II Slip ons, with thunder city copy type baffles

Stock Cams (AFAIK)

Thanks
When you say "under" do you mean between the needle and the ivory colored plastic piece that the spring sits on? If you do, and even if you don't, it's still possible that you will need a shim washer of some kind there to take up the free play between the back of the needle and that plastic retainer. If there is any free play the needle can move up and down instead of being in a fixed position in relation to the slide, and that's not good.

The write up on that site you linked says you don't use a shim washer, but naturally I have to question the possibility that you may need one or two to fine tune the needle. You go by plug readings and feel, and/or dyno readings to determine if the needle height is right or not.

I never saw a needle that I didn't want to play with, even though sometimes it ends up right where it started.

wedge
2nd April 2013, 02:01
The engine HAS to be fully warmed up before you can set the idle mix or idle speed.
+1. This soot may be just from being on the choke too much in the period it ran before you checked, or not warmed up for long enough to clean off the plugs, etc. In your cold climate, I would go for a good 30 minute ride and keep the rpm up there (keep it running crisp). before trying to adjust, or before trying to read plugs.

We have it easy here, it's usually so F'n hot we could tune a carb before the starter quits turning. :laugh:roflblack:laugh

Loony
2nd April 2013, 14:17
Thanks All,

I took the carb apart and checked the needle and it had movement in the vertical plane.

I put the plastic shim back in and the needle feels much more solid. bike is running ok at idle but I need to get out and do the run as suggested for fine tune.

The shim goes under the head of the needle and on top of the slide body. The plastic guide then sit over the needle and is held by the spring.

I think what threw me is not considering the slide is vacuum operated and adjusts itself. I have been use to having a clip on the needle allowing different depths which doesn't seem to be as critical on a CV carb. I thought that the difference in shim would cause a different mixture which it probably does if I added further shims.

wedge
2nd April 2013, 18:30
Thanks All,

I took the carb apart and checked the needle and it had movement in the vertical plane.

I put the plastic shim back in and the needle feels much more solid. bike is running ok at idle but I need to get out and do the run as suggested for fine tune.

The shim goes under the head of the needle and on top of the slide body. The plastic guide then sit over the needle and is held by the spring.

I think what threw me is not considering the slide is vacuum operated and adjusts itself. I have been use to having a clip on the needle allowing different depths which doesn't seem to be as critical on a CV carb. I thought that the difference in shim would cause a different mixture which it probably does if I added further shims.
It does change the mixture by adding shims under the "nail head". The slide will lift due to vacuum, but the needle will be at the height that you set it too with the washers. Keep in mind that the "vertical play" that we are discussing can be cured with a shim under the nail head, or over the nail head, it just has to eliminate any gap. By putting it under the head you have raised the needle.

Now picture that needle and think about the straight part that extends from the nail head to where it starts to taper. When you raise or lower the needle with washers you are moving that point where the taper starts up or down, which will bring in more fuel sooner or later at a given slide height (determined by vacuum). It also puts you in a different portion of the taper at all heights of the slide past the point where the taper starts, and it also allows the needle to be clear of the needle jet sooner or later depending on more or less shims.

Once you set that, then yes, it will sort of self adjust for altitude because at different air pressures the vac will raise the slide to a different place given the same amount of air you are giving it with the throttle plate. But the carb has to be set properly at some altitude to get a baseline setting.

So to recap, you just richened the mid range by adding that shim. That may be OK, but you need to do plug reading and test ride it plenty to confirm that. If it needs to go leaner, then move that washer to on top of the needle and you will still have eliminated the vertical movement of the needle. Are you with me here?

Loony
2nd April 2013, 18:55
Yes I understand and thanks for taking the time to explain.

The shim or spacer is the same ID as the needle and not much bigger than the head of the needle on the OD.

Unless someone has messed with the spring seat, I can't see how I could run the spacer I have above the needle.

Without the shim I calculate that the needle has 0.8 mm of movement.

Is there a part that I am missing to take up the slack in between the needle head and the spring seat?

If there is a calculated length that the needle must protrude from the slide, I can try and make something work.

I will have to pull the carb again to fit the starter valve which wont be here till Friday. I will have another look and see if I can suss it.

rocketmangb
2nd April 2013, 19:00
Loony
I use a 3 mm stainless washer that is .021 thick

And there really is no place for a washer on TOP of the nail so dont sweat that.

They all have some vertical play but it wont affect anything you can notice.

Don Burton
2nd April 2013, 19:11
They all have some vertical play but it wont affect anything you can notice.

I agree. The amount of vertical "play" in an unshimmed stock CV carb needle is minimal and isn't enough to affect the mixture. In fact I only use #4 shims that are the same outside diameter as the needle seat rather than the slightly smaller size of the needle head and plastic needle holder, so the shims don't take up any of that minimal vertical "play". I suspect that the "Play" was designed that way on purpose as it allows the needle to slightly "float' and "center" itself so that it won't be forced into a fixed position and wear laterally against one side or another of the needle jet. That's just conjecture but there is some potential logic to it. In any event the slight vertical "play" of the needle clearly seems to be part of the design and not a mistake.

wedge
2nd April 2013, 22:15
I have to disagree with both of you guys. That play is about equivalent to a washer thickness, which means the needle can vibrate up and down enough to equal a washers thickness of adjustment. Somewhere I have seen where spare washers are kept above the clip on the dynojet kits too. I have a plastic shim above my dynojet needle (the kind used on RC car shocks), because I like the way it sits inside the needle holder without tying to fall out when you assemble it..

In the CV with a non clip type needle, then a washer under the needle is as good as one over it as far as taking up the play goes. Many of those (I think most) run at least one washer, so those needles are "trapped" in one position so Keihin doesn't seem concerned with self centering. This also debunks the idea that "they all have some vertical play".

rocketmangb
2nd April 2013, 22:24
Wedge
The stock needle has no shim under it and no way is one gonna stay on top of a stock needle.
We are cruising down the highway with the needle up a bit with the slide and gravity pulling the needle down.

Aint no way to prove it either way Bud !

Don Burton
2nd April 2013, 23:35
In the CV with a non clip type needle, then a washer under the needle is as good as one over it as far as taking up the play goes. Many of those (I think most) run at least one washer, so those needles are "trapped" in one position so Keihin doesn't seem concerned with self centering. This also debunks the idea that "they all have some vertical play".


Pete, My #4 brass shims don't "trap" the needle in one position as they don't fit inside the plastic needle holder, rather they are the same diameter as the needle seat. For whatever reason, Keihin designed this carb so that the needle would have a little vertical slop in it. Keihin could have made the the depth of the plastic needle holder the same depth as the thickness of the needle head in order to keep the needle head tight but, instead, made it slightly deeper which allows a little vertical movement.

wedge
2nd April 2013, 23:54
Pete, My #4 brass hims don't "trap" the needle in one position as they don't fit inside the plastic needle holder, rather they are the same diameter as the needle seat. For whatever reason, Keihin designed this carb so that the needle would have a little vertical slop in it. Keihin could have made the the depth of the plastic needle holder the same depth as the thickness of the needle head in order to keep the needle head tight but, instead, made it slightly deeper which allows a little vertical movement.
Well, think about that a second Dan. Once you put one or more of your shims under the needle the head raises and is trapped in there. It doesn't matter what their OD of your washer is, because the needle itself goes up inside the holder. My stock Keihin had three washers on the needle, one below, and two above before I molested it. I did get the bike with 8000 miles on it, so it could have been altered before I worked on it, although the cap over the mix screw was intact. My dynojet thunder slide kit came with that plastic shim I mentioned, and I found it to be identical to the RC car ones so I use those too.

Rocketman
The stock needle has no shim under it and no way is one gonna stay on top of a stock needle.
We are cruising down the highway with the needle up a bit with the slide and gravity pulling the needle down.

Of course they stay on top, the spring keeps the holder against the needle and anything else you put on top of the needle, so it has to stay there.

Loony
2nd April 2013, 23:55
I tend to agree with wedge. I can't understand why having nearly a mm of play in the needle height would be ok.

The needles seem to manufactured to a extremely tight tolerance and having vertical movement defeats the object of the shapes used.

When I ran the bike for a short spin I did feel some hesitation on initial acceleration (or zero to half throttle). This was not what I expected from a problem solving designed component. (I have always had occasional carb pop)

It's a real pain not being able to go on a good run to test back to back. On friday I will have the new starter valve in place and hopefully this will cure the rich idle and lead on to a more accurate experience.

I will try the shim in place so effectively raising the needles midrange setting, I will then try running without the shim completely out and then see if I can run with the spring seat holding the needle in position but without a shim under the needle too.

It looks like we may have some above freezing weather this weekend so I will report back here.

The other option I have is to pull the carb on my dads 06. I really didn't want to get into that but if I can't find an answer I may have to to compare the setups. I will be able to measure the needle length from the slide and chek for movement. AFAIK his bike runs without any issues.

The other thing I should mention is that the needle I took out of my bike that has had the shim fitted since my ownership does have some signs of wear just below the head. I will also try to get some High def pictures of this as well and post here.

Not trying to argue with you guys, but I would like to understand the science behind this simple job and get my bike running a best as I can.

It would be nice to hear from CV performance to see what they think about this.

Don Burton
3rd April 2013, 01:19
Well, think about that a second Dan. Once you put one or more of your shims under the needle the head raises and is trapped in there. It doesn't matter what their OD of your washer is, because the needle itself goes up inside the holder.

Of course, Pete, my #4 washer/shim raises the needle but it does so by merely adding to the height of the needle seat. It doesn't shove the head of the needle up into the plastic needle holder any further than stock carb with no shims like a smaller diameter shim might. Again I suspect that gravity pretty much holds the needle down on the seat or shim and the needle doesn't move up and down very much even though there is some potential vertical wag room.

Don Burton
3rd April 2013, 01:29
I tend to agree with wedge. I can't understand why having nearly a mm of play in the needle height would be ok.

The needles seem to manufactured to a extremely tight tolerance and having vertical movement defeats the object of the shapes used.

When I ran the bike for a short spin I did feel some hesitation on initial acceleration (or zero to half throttle). This was not what I expected from a problem solving designed component. (I have always had occasional carb pop)

It's a real pain not being able to go on a good run to test back to back. On friday I will have the new starter valve in place and hopefully this will cure the rich idle and lead on to a more accurate experience.

I will try the shim in place so effectively raising the needles midrange setting, I will then try running without the shim completely out and then see if I can run with the spring seat holding the needle in position but without a shim under the needle too.

It looks like we may have some above freezing weather this weekend so I will report back here. I think (but do not know for sure) that the characteristic is part of the design which allows the needle top be self centering inside

The other option I have is to pull the carb on my dads 06. I really didn't want to get into that but if I can't find an answer I may have to to compare the setups. I will be able to measure the needle length from the slide and chek for movement. AFAIK his bike runs without any issues.

The other thing I should mention is that the needle I took out of my bike that has had the shim fitted since my ownership does have some signs of wear just below the head. I will also try to get some High def pictures of this as well and post here.

Not trying to argue with you guys, but I would like to understand the science behind this simple job and get my bike running a best as I can.

It would be nice to hear from CV performance to see what they think about this.


We're all friends here and are having a great discussion. I've thought about this a great deal over the past few years and it is very interesting to me so I'll summarize the main points of what I have thought about this. Some of it is rehash but I'll put it all together for discussion.

I think that the possibility of having significant vertical movement of the needle in the plastic needle holder is a non issues as far as creating a negative effect on performance is concerned. If it created problems I don't think that Keihin would have purposefully manufactured hundreds of thousands if not millions of CV carburetors for H-D with this characteristic. I think (but do not know for sure) that this characteristic is part of an intentional design in order to allow the needle to be self centering inside the needle jet without any vertical or lateral tension other than gravity being placed on it. The easy self centering of the needle creates the potential for less lateral wear on the needle and needle jet. I believe that gravity itself is sufficient to hold the needle down on its seat or shim. If the needle was held tightly in place it wouldn't self center as easily, which would create potential for more significant lateral wear.

wedge
3rd April 2013, 02:00
That would be true if the cavity for the head of the needle was deeper than the depth of the head, but I think it's not. In that case your wider washers would hit the bottom of the retainer before the top of the needle was seated against the retainer. I have a slide and the needle here, but I do not have an extra retainer to verify that right now. As I am remembering it, the spider legs on the retainer hit sooner than the bottom of the retainer would hit the slide surface, so your wider washers should have room to take up some slack before they contact the retainer and can't go further. I would also think that the fuel/air mixture passing up through the needle jet would push upwards on the needle and cause it to raise.

The dynojet kit has washers that are stacked above the clip that take up the play, but that doesn't prove or disprove it because the clip has play between it and it's groove so the needle can self center even if the clip is trapped.

Anyone can check theirs by removing the air cleaner and lifting the slide with a finger and trying to move the needle up and down to see if it rattles.

OK, my brain hurts enough for one day, it's time to get out of the shop for tonight.

I hope life is treating you good Dan.

rocketmangb
3rd April 2013, 03:19
One Word ! MIKUNI !

rocketmangb
3rd April 2013, 03:26
Wedge
I have a complete CV and the needle moves maybe .010

Now I dont know if or how many shims are in there but its waitin here on the bench for ya !

Don Burton
3rd April 2013, 04:34
That would be true if the cavity for the head of the needle was deeper than the depth of the head, but I think it's not. In that case your wider washers would hit the bottom of the retainer before the top of the needle was seated against the retainer. I have a slide and the needle here, but I do not have an extra retainer to verify that right now. As I am remembering it, the spider legs on the retainer hit sooner than the bottom of the retainer would hit the slide surface, so your wider washers should have room to take up some slack before they contact the retainer and can't go further. I would also think that the fuel/air mixture passing up through the needle jet would push upwards on the needle and cause it to raise.

The dynojet kit has washers that are stacked above the clip that take up the play, but that doesn't prove or disprove it because the clip has play between it and it's groove so the needle can self center even if the clip is trapped.

Anyone can check theirs by removing the air cleaner and lifting the slide with a finger and trying to move the needle up and down to see if it rattles.

OK, my brain hurts enough for one day, it's time to get out of the shop for tonight.

I hope life is treating you good Dan.


Yes sir, life is getting better! Yes, the cavity of the plastic needle holder is slightly deeper than the head of the needle is thick which results in the potential for vertical movement which I have been referring to. I never measured how much movement there is but I noted that there is some. My #4 shim/washers are the same OD as the needle seat on the slide so the fingers of the needle holder fit on them in just the same way as if they were on the seat itself. The shims/washers take up no slack.

Loony
3rd April 2013, 11:31
I just pinged CVP with a question, hopefully they can add to the discussion.

Fullcyc
3rd April 2013, 13:04
Great discussion guys and hopefully someone will chime in with a definite answer. I just recently replaced my needle with CVP's N65 and during installation I noticed that there was some play/slop allowing the needle to move vertically. My thinking then was to place a shim above the needle to take out the play as Wedge has mentioned, But after reading Don's theory about the "self centering" this makes perfect since to me now as well. Now I'm really confused...lol

It had been a long time since I had messed with a carb but after sitting here thinking about it I do remember that most of the carbs I did mess with while growing up all had slop in the needles. I can't remember if they had any vertical movement or not but once the slide was out of the carb the needles would just kinda dangle there and would have some wiggle to them. I don't think I ever did see one that had a tight fit...

My bike seems to be running great with the shim in there but is this going to cause a problem later on by causing the needle to wear from not centering properly?..

Loony
3rd April 2013, 13:16
The needle I took out of my carb does have some signs of wear around the middle section. This needle had the 0.8mm shim under it.

Now I know this is the wrong chart for our carbs, but it does show the overlap of each component and maybe this is similar to ours.

http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g272/frankenglide/calchart.gif

maybe this amount of overlap allows for the vertical play in the needle.

Don Burton
3rd April 2013, 15:35
The needle I took out of my carb does have some signs of wear around the middle section. This needle had the 0.8mm shim under it.

Now I know this is the wrong chart for our carbs, but it does show the overlap of each component and maybe this is similar to ours.

http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g272/frankenglide/calchart.gif

maybe this amount of overlap allows for the vertical play in the needle.



DynoJet needles have also been known to wear against the needle jet.

Regarding overlap. If you think of how a carb works, one circuit doesn't just shut off and another then take over. There is actual overlap between circuits which has nothing to do with slight needle movement.

wedge
3rd April 2013, 18:09
One Word ! MIKUNI !
One word answer "don'tconfusetheissue"!

CVPerformance
3rd April 2013, 18:31
We're all friends here and are having a great discussion. I've thought about this a great deal over the past few years and it is very interesting to me so I'll summarize the main points of what I have thought about this. Some of it is rehash but I'll put it all together for discussion.

I think that the possibility of having significant vertical movement of the needle in the plastic needle holder is a non issues as far as creating a negative effect on performance is concerned. If it created problems I don't think that Keihin would have purposefully manufactured hundreds of thousands if not millions of CV carburetors for H-D with this characteristic. I think (but do not know for sure) that this characteristic is part of an intentional design in order to allow the needle to be self centering inside the needle jet without any vertical or lateral tension other than gravity being placed on it. The easy self centering of the needle creates the potential for less lateral wear on the needle and needle jet. I believe that gravity itself is sufficient to hold the needle down on its seat or shim. If the needle was held tightly in place it wouldn't self center as easily, which would create potential for more significant lateral wear.

I'll chime in here by request of the OP but to tell you the truth Don and some others have already summed this up perfectly in a few of these posts.

Years ago we looked into the idea that play between the needle head and spring retainer would impact needle position however we could never pinpoint any significant change. In theory it seemed natural that this play would alter the position thus change mixture and delivery at various states of slide travel, but when comparing a stock needle against the same needle with a spacer above to prevent movement, there was no change shown on a dyno run. Otherwise we would have increased the needle head thickness on our own needles to take up the slack. Instead we stuck with the specification from Keihin for thickness tolerance and use that to this day.

DynoJet used a rubber or plastic spacer above their needles because their adjustable needles do not have a flat head for the spring retainer to contact and support, so the spacer takes up any gap between the top of the e-clip and the plastic retainer. You may use the same with a stock or CVP needle but it probably won't have an impact on your settings.

Regarding your original question sent to me by email, no I wouldn't add the shim under the needle unless you are experiencing a flat or lean spot in the circuit. I couldn't find an order under your name so I'm unsure if you are running the needle made for the 04-06 1200, 89-06 883 or 883>1200 conversion, or a N65C. Needle selection is important based on model since the 04-06 1200 has different heads than the other 883 and 1200's. Please contact me direct (email or our support forum) and I can assist you.

The earlier mentions of proper warm up of the engine and over use of the enrichener is far more likely to contribute to soot or carbon deposits than needle position. I would only fine tune on an engine that is at adequate temperature and verify all other conditions are correct (i.e. you mentioned use of a TC88A MAP). Follow the tuning recommendations and go from there.

Last note, while I do have this area on this XL forum and am happy to answer questions about our product, changes coming to this forum may change my ability to address everything here. Dedicated product support of the CVP product line is provided outside of this forum and is monitored more frequently than here, since our products are made for all Harley models (not just XL). Again I'm happy to answer general product questions here but specific product support should be directed to our site and support channel.

HTH

wedge
3rd April 2013, 18:58
Well, that seems to explain where I got the spacer idea from. I have a dynojet thunderslide, and I have worked on a few other dynojet setups, and since my memory isn't what it used to be (it used to be far worse), I could be mistaken about seeing shims above a Keihin style needle on carbs I didn't work on. The ones I worked on are shimmed, and I also relieve the hole for the float pin so that it isn't a total Be-atch to get out, but we all know how anal I am about everything except washing the bike. :doh

I am really liking the CVP emulsion tube because I like the ability to use Keihin jets. I spent time yesterday on the CVP site looking at the available needles and that looks like something that I can easily work with too.

Thanks Ken for taking the time to post this detailed explanation of your findings.

Thanks Dan for pushing on this until we sorted it out in detail also. Like you already mentioned, we are all friends here. Heck, George and I argue over every little detail on a regular basis, but you know it makes us all better in the end.

Don Burton
4th April 2013, 00:54
Pete (Wedge), I always laugh when I see you yanking George's (Rocket) chain which you do on a regular basis! Apparently the Queen doesn't get out of George's garage as often as you think it should. You guys are lucky enough to know each other well so I know there is nothing to it but good humor.

Thanks to Ken from CV Performance for his input. His great products will become more and more necessary as H-D gradually moves away from selling carb parts.

rocketmangb
4th April 2013, 01:07
George Wins !

wedge
4th April 2013, 01:36
George Wins !
George, you can't win unless someone looses, and I refuse to loose, you know that. :boxing

rocketmangb
4th April 2013, 01:59
Lose ! the word is Lose !

Not LOOSE like yur primary !

Ok next topic !

wedge
4th April 2013, 02:03
Pete (Wedge), I always laugh when I see you yanking George's (Rocket) chain which you do on a regular basis! Apparently the Queen doesn't get out of George's garage as often as you think it should. You guys are lucky enough to know each other well so I know there is nothing to it but good humor.

Thanks to Ken from CV Performance for his input. His great products will become more and more necessary as H-D gradually moves away from selling carb parts.
Well, George is a great guy and I enjoy riding with him. Now I just have to get him to ride on pavement instead of rollers. I have an inherent need to keep pushing pavement out from under the back wheel.

I have a plan though. It seems he just became bike rich, so I'm tying to get him to make one of them a rider... Any one, doesn't matter which. Just something to chew up the asphalt.

Don Burton
4th April 2013, 02:05
Old farts!

wedge
4th April 2013, 02:10
Old farts!
Yeah, and that's another thing... Can either of us afford to give up good riding time at our age?

rocketmangb Lose ! the word is Lose !

Not LOOSE like yur primary !

I work one letter at a time, so I never have been a good speller, I'll leave that to you.

Don Burton
5th April 2013, 06:38
Yeah, and that's another thing... Can either of us afford to give up good riding time at our age?


I'm right in there with you guys too. I was born at least the day before yesterday. ;)

Loony
7th April 2013, 18:57
Ok, I had a fairly decent run today(still freezing air temps for the bike though) and have made a few changes since my last post.

Firstly The starter valve turned up so I fitted it and made some adjustment to the spring and cable so the valve should be completely shut and sealing properly.

Next I tried removing the .8mm shim from under the needle and ran the bike. I was defintely experiencing some mid range lag under acceleration. The needle was flopping all over the place (up down back forth left and right) but I left it in for another run. The Plugs have continued to be a bit sooty around the basering. so I tried a half turn in on the IMS.

I have not been happy with the vertical needle float. so last night I decided I would try and get the shim to fit above the needle and guess what, it does. It fits right into the spring seat without any risk of it falling out so now the needle still has a small amount of float and good lateral movement.

Apologies go to wedge as I didn't look closely enough at my spring seat. I don't know if this is a stock spring seat BTW.

It has been my fault that the shim has been under any of the needles on my bike. I really can't remember if it was ever above the needle, so the buck stops with me.

So Today I did a 50 mile run and found that the hesitation has now gone. I still have sooty exhausts and sooty basering. I Have turned the IMS in another 1/2 turn and will try again tommorow with a MPG run. I have had to use the enrichener to get the bike started everyday.

So so far the main reason for all this exploration is the harley carb fart or pop and stop, I am glad to say that so far it hasnt happened while riding the bike fully warmed up.

I need to double check that the float is at the correct height after talking with a knowledagle car mechanic freind today. This however may only solve the odd pop I get when turning right at a particaular corner near where I live which I cannnot replicate until I head home in a few days.

So I think my next change to get this thing running a bit leaner (if the MPG sucks) is to change the pilot back to a 42 (from 45) and just see what results I get.

The bike sounds sharp, The proper V twin sound, much more like properly running bike, but I have lost a little hard acceleration power. At one stage recently , but I don't know what settings, the bike was lifting the front wheel in first and second gear!

Thanks for all the Info so far.

wedge
7th April 2013, 19:09
I still have a lot of the old fashioned drafting equipment here even though everything I design is on the computer these days. So, I use an adjustable triangle to set the angle that the carb has to be on when you check the float level adjustment. If you don't have access to that, then get a protractor and cut a piece of cardboard at the 15 to 20 degrees that it calls for. I use 17.5 degrees, and so far every one I have checked has been good, although that has to be just luck.

The pilot isn't going to make any noticeable difference in gas mileage. So far from what I can see, the 45 gives you less popping on deceleration, and less farts on acceleration, and the 42 runs a bit crisper off the bottom end (hardly noticeable), but I have a 45 and am thinking about looking at the 42 again just to see if I may want to put up with the popping.

Neither pilot shows anything definite on plug readings because once you adjust the mix screw the idle is the same. The only real change is just off idle as you open the throttle plate and those other 5 holes come into play.

Loony
7th April 2013, 19:14
Not to question your experience but could you explain why its necessary to change pilot jets if the IMS is out of range.

so for instance if the IMS is screwed more than 3.5 turns out you move up to the next pilot jet size?

just trying to understand the system.

wedge
7th April 2013, 19:44
Not to question your experience but could you explain why its necessary to change pilot jets if the IMS is out of range.

so for instance if the IMS is screwed more than 3.5 turns out you move up to the next pilot jet size?

just trying to understand the system.
OK, lets see if I can explain this clearly.

The pilot jet controls 6 ports. So look at it like there is a passage with the pilot jet controlling how much fuel enters through that passage. If you were get small and move through that main jet and enter the passage, the first thing you would come too would be the idle screw, and above you would be the port that the tip of that screw controls the flow through. The throttle plate in the throat of the carb is in it's furthest closed position (set by the throttle stop screw), air passing under that plate causes fuel to siphon up through that one port that the idle mixture screw is controlling (plus a miniscule amount from the other 5 ports that I will explain later), so you adjust that at say 3.5 turns with a 42 jet, and at 3 turns with a 45 jet, because the 45 allows more fuel into the pilot circuit. The end result is that the idle mixture is about the same, just the screw is in a different place to achieve that.

Note: I am not saying arbitrarily set it for 3 or 3.5 turns, I am saying that as you adjust it with the idle drop method it will end up being there when it is correct. Also I just pulled those numbers out of the air because that is what mine acts like, but your actual numbers will be whatever your adjustment works out to be. They will just be slightly different between the 42 to the 45 by about 1/2 turn from what I have seen.

Now as you go further into the pilot circuit passage, you can look up and see 5 more ports in a diamond shape with one in the center. If you open the throttle plate more (beginning to accelerate slowly), that throttle plate allows more syphoning action to those 5 ports, and since the supply to them is greater with a 45 jet then they supply more fuel at just off idle.

Then as you get the throttle plate open more the slide raises and you start syphoning from the needle jet Which controls the flow of fuel from the main jet by the height of the needle in that needle jet.

Once you get the needle jet open by raising the needle to it's highest position, you now get full flow through the main jet, through the emulsion tube and up through that now open needle jet. So the main jet only comes into play at about 3/4 throttle. This is why I say you can put any huge main jet in or even leave that main jet on your workbench while you tune the idle and mid range, because it doesn't do anything unless it's too small and chokes off the needle jet supply.

wedge
7th April 2013, 19:45
Oh, and the reason you don't want it more than 3.5 turns is because eventually it would fall out from vibration if it's too far backed out.

Loony
8th April 2013, 21:22
Thanks wedge, I will digest that info over the next few days.

For now I am having a real problem getting this bike to run lean at idle.

after a run the bike stinks of fuel,
The pipes are constantly sooty, when I rev the engine I get black puffs of smoke, the plugs are very sooty.

I have tried switching EZ IMS screws and screwing them all the way in and doesn't seem to stumble like it did before, resetting the float level to 11mm at 17 degrees, I have checked for leaks with brake cleaner.

The bike was running fine, the only difference is the weather being very cold and I high moisture content as everything is furring and rusting on my bike. I am starting too think it could be a mechanical engine part failing as WCS.

I will have a look at the electrics tomorrow to see if maybe there is some bad earths appearing as maybe its isn't getting all the power it needs to run right and burn fuel properly.

question, if the jet needle isn't sitting properly in the needle jet and emulsion tube, because I am running the shim above and making the needle more solid, would it allow fuel to pass if it is not sealing properly?

wedge
8th April 2013, 22:12
No, the shim is not the problem here. That debate about weather the needle should be captive or loose (as George spells it) was just discussing a minor technical point that is not causing something like you are mentioning. Plus your problems seem to be at idle, so again, the needle isn't even in the picture at idle. The only way this could be wrong is if the float level was too high and you had fuel drawing from the needle circuit at idle, and that would have to be radically high, and still unlikely.

OK, now here's a possibility... In the interest of staying on topic and getting your question answered I did leave something out of the discussion of the pilot circuit. Lets back up to where you imagine yourself as a molecule of fuel entering the pilot jet. That's the main door into the passage that has the ports that I mentioned, but immediately as you and your fellow molecules pass through the jet you feel a breeze... Feel that? It's coming through the holes in the side of the extension on the pilot jet (a mini-emulsion tube), and that breeze is what breaks your long term bond with your fellow molecules, and tosses you around with the air that has been introduced into the mixture.

So, you need to make sure that the air bleed is unobstructed that leads to the pilot jet chamber. If that air is missing you will syphon just fuel through the ports into the carb, and that will make it very rich.

When you look at the mouth of the carb (with the air cleaner removed) you see two holes below the venturi (narrow area). They both have air bleed jets in them that control the amount of air they let in, and the one directly below the center of the venture is the one that feeds the main emulsion tube. The other one that is slightly off center feeds the pilot cavity. You can probably clear this by using carb cleaner and with the tube spray it directly into that opening and listen for it passing through and into the bore of the carb back behind the slide. You may be able to observe this by lifting the slide with your finger.

So, here's a list of things that I would be checking...

Float level, but you did that already.
Air bleed that I just mentioned.
Plugged air cleaner limiting air supply.
Mixture just not adjusted correctly. You said you are at 3 turns out, so maybe just set it at 2 turns just to see if you can make it go leaner.

Also as you set mixture, remember to turn down the idle speed with the idle stop screw so you can hear it better and get a better feel. Possibly that throttle plate is open too far at full closed position and causing some draw from the needle (not likely, but still should be verified).

Loony
8th April 2013, 22:38
I guess I am looking at the changes I have made and the effect I seem to be getting,

something else I should mention, is that the throttle valve makes a squeaking sound like its touching the carb mouth when I open the throttle, this has only just started happening.

it could well be coincidence that something has happened while pulling this carb on and off so many times. I will get some carb cleaner and see what I can do.

I remember CVP saying they had problems with Yost EZ screws, this is what I am running and it is a bit out of shape at the pinpoint top part most likely from where I may have over tightened it.

I tried to clean it up a bit and put it back in and set it at 2 turns out, I took a quick 20 miles ride and still have similar symptoms.

even when I turn it all the way in, the bike doesn't stumble as it did before. Now as I understand it the IMS is blocking the hole to let less fuel in to the idle circuit.

If I turned the IMS all the way in with any pilot jet fitted, would that cause the bike to idle rough or stumble as you would expect when adjusting to find the middle ground of the IMS?

If so then I must have unwanted fuel getting past the IMS indicating it's shagged and making the bike idle rich.

Also another question, if the bike was idling and I raised the slide with my finger to lift the jet needle, what would you expect to happen to the bike?

wedge
8th April 2013, 22:46
I haven't tried that, but I would think that you are possibly going to draw fuel from the needle jet and probably stall the engine, but that would depend on weather the closed throttle plate will allow enough air in to do that.

If the mix screw has been turned in too far it can cause the bore of the carb to crack and mushroom up where the seat is for the screw. You can see this by observing the tip of the screw protruding into the bore of the carb (its in the back so you probably need to have the carb off to see it). This can cause your problem too. Once that has happened, you will probably never make the carb idle right. I should say also that the tip of the screw does protrude on a good one too, but if it has been over tightened you will see cracking and distortion of the hole, and the screw can protrude further.

Always use a light touch on that screw when seating it.

Loony
8th April 2013, 22:54
I edited my post so you may not have seen this

something else I should mention, is that the throttle valve makes a squeaking sound like its touching the carb mouth when I open the throttle, this has only just started happening.

is this pointing towards a new carb?

wedge
8th April 2013, 23:01
Not sure, just have to look and see what's squeaking.

rocketmangb
9th April 2013, 01:01
Raise the slide by hand with the bike running at idle ?

My first guess would be nothing would change because the throttle plate is closed.

Loony
9th April 2013, 11:28
ok I have found a significant problem.

on the jiffy stand, when the bike is at idle there is a steady stream of fuel coming out of the needle jet.

I have adjusted the float level as according to the book but I think it may be to high for my bike. I'm wondering if there is a aftermarket fuel valve which is a different length making the stock measurement void. measures 15.34 mm length.

I have now removed the shim completely.

I am sure that there is too much fuel going in as every time I have removed the carb from the manifold there is a small pool of fuel in the rubber seal recess.

I should have picked up on this earlier.

Loony
9th April 2013, 11:56
here are some pics of my slide and spring seat. Is there anything there that doesn't look stock?

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y252/lostplanet/slide7_zps6fc70c48.jpg

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y252/lostplanet/slide6_zpsa1d7e9fb.jpg

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y252/lostplanet/slide5_zps41bda1ff.jpg

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y252/lostplanet/slide4_zpsb9a20d92.jpg

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y252/lostplanet/slide3_zps07c12883.jpg

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y252/lostplanet/slide2_zpsfbfda4fb.jpg

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y252/lostplanet/slide1_zpse96516e0.jpg

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y252/lostplanet/springseat2_zps7edf942a.jpg

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y252/lostplanet/springseat_zpsd093c4db.jpg

Loony
9th April 2013, 14:19
More news, I got my dads bike going and watched the needle jet, there is no stream like mine was doing, AFAIK his bike runs ok.

I have changed the float level a couple of times now.

I found that the level appeared to be fine when doing the clear plastic tube trick.

but when I sucked on the petcock vacuum hose more fuel came in and raised the level to 4mm above the top of the float bowl, way to much fuel.

So I have gone away from Mocos method which is not working for me and am looking at the float from the top and eyeing it just above level.

The new measurement doing it mocos way is like 15mm at the bottom of the float at an angle 17 degrees.

There is a little fuel coming up from the needle jet but now it looks atomised rather than a stream of gas.

I will give it a 50 mile run and see whats happening.

wedge
9th April 2013, 20:08
Everything in your pictures looks normal.

It had nothing to do with the shim.

I doubt it had anything to do with the float level as adjusted per the spec.

I think you have the throttle plate adjusted too far open at idle.

Is that needle jet in correctly? The longer end goes up, and the needle goes into the end that has the larger opening.

Loony
9th April 2013, 20:30
wedge, did you see post 54 and 56?

Needle jet hasn't been out since I have had the bike, it looks correct according to pictures I have seen.

If the float was set correctly what would cause fuel to stream out of the needle jet when the bike is at idle 1000rpm?

The throttle plate is at rest or shut until I adjust the Idle screw to keep the bike ticking over.

wedge
9th April 2013, 20:55
Yes, and I am now wondering about that test you made in post #56. Was the bike running at the time?

So you used a piece of clear tube to observe the level of fuel in the bowl, then you sucked on the vac line to the petcock and the level went up? That shouldn't be happening.

Apparently the float needle is letting fuel in past the shut off level.

I assume you did have the float out of the carb while cleaning, so I also assume you know the float is not sinking.

It sounds like the bike was not running, and the petcock was not seeing vacuum until you sucked on the hose, then for some reason that supply of fuel overcame the float needle. That's not supposed to happen, and now I wonder if you have had fuel leaking from the overflow tube?

Maybe it's time to look at that float and needle again.

Loony
9th April 2013, 21:43
I will answer your questions, but for now I seem to have lost my way.

When I swapped to the CVP needle and CVP emulsion tube I started having issues. Not saying anything against CVP but I think there maybe a problem with my existing Needle jet and the new parts.

It seems that there must be a problem where the needle isn't stopping fuel from coming up from the needle jet and flowing straight into the manifold.

Tomorrow I will put the bike back to how it was and see if I can find any problems.

one question is:

In normal operation would you expect the jet needle to seal the main jet and stop fuel rising up the emulsion tube at idle?

The reason I ask is because I have my old emulsion tube, 2 spare main jets and the old needle and when put the needle in the emulsion tube so it sits in the main jet and hold the needle I cannot blow air past the main jet.

Now I think about it I am sure that I have been running the shim that was in the carb from the start in the wrong place on the original needle. It should have been above the needle not under it.

I don't know what sort of kit this bike has on it but there must have been some changes from stock for sure by the previous owner.

wedge
9th April 2013, 22:38
No, the needle is not supposed to close off the main jet. When the needle is in it's lowest position it is not in the main jet at all. The needle works in conjunction with the needle jet only, and never obstructs the main jet. The needle never completely seals off the needle jet either. That straight section of the needle is where most of your riding is done, and if it sealed off the needle jet, then you would not be getting fuel at cruise at all except for what came from the pilot circuit.

Remember, the main jet is just the entrance to the emulsion tube, and all metering is done with the needle/needle jet. You can throw the main jet away, and still the bike will run just fine up to about 2/3 to 3/4 throttle, because the needle is controlling the amount of fuel.

The fuel starts to draw from the needle jet once the air speed is enough to create the syphoning action. So your issue has to be either with the float level as you suspect, or with the throttle plate being too far open at idle and allowing too much air to pass. The throttle stop screw controls the amount of opening on the plate.

The shim position is only going to fine tune it, so that is not your problem.

Loony
9th April 2013, 22:41
Yes, and I am now wondering about that test you made in post #56. Was the bike running at the time? No, the bike was on the jiffy stand and then I put my jack under it so made it level and checked again.

So you used a piece of clear tube to observe the level of fuel in the bowl, then you sucked on the vac line to the petcock and the level went up? That shouldn't be happening. Yes, I measured the fuel level as at the joint between carb and float bowl. as I was looking for problems with fuel coming up the needle jet I thought I should replicate normal running conditions so created a vacuum at the petcock. the fuel level then rose to 4mm above the float bowl joint. thinking this was too high, I reduced the float level and checked again with vacuum and that was set at 17 degress approx 11mm when the fuel valve actually shut off by blowing down the fuel line to check. so from there I knew that the fuel valve would shut at the correct time and under normal running conditions. But fuel was still finding its way up the needle jet and creating a rich idle so I then readsjusted the float level to approx 15mm at 17 degrees and this seems to have stopped the fuel coming up the needle jet

Apparently the float needle is letting fuel in past the shut off level.

I assume you did have the float out of the carb while cleaning, so I also assume you know the float is not sinking. Yes, I checked the float and there are no leaks. The fuel valve is in good condition and clean but could have a weak spring, I don't have anything to measure that against apart from it measures 15.34 mm with a digital caliper

It sounds like the bike was not running, and the petcock was not seeing vacuum until you sucked on the hose, then for some reason that supply of fuel overcame the float needle. That's not supposed to happen, and now I wonder if you have had fuel leaking from the overflow tube? I have no fuel leaking from the carb. I considered that when the petcock is opened by vacuum the weight of the fuel/gravity will continue to flow into the bowl until the fuel valve shuts completely by the correct float level.I could be wrong

Maybe it's time to look at that float and needle again.

wedge
9th April 2013, 23:12
Well, 15mm is still in spec, and now that the fuel is not being syphoned up the needle jet, lets see if you can adjust idle mix and see the plugs go to the gray side.

When you opened the petcock by sucking, the fuel level should have stayed the same because the float valve should have been closed already unless some fuel evaporated out of the bowl. That is still something of concern.

Loony
9th April 2013, 23:20
Yes I agree, I will look into a new fuel valve.

I will try a run if its dry! we got rid of bitter cold to now have rain!

Tomorrow I will set idle with some good temp in the bike. Just to be sure,

is it best to have the idle rpms higher or lower when setting IMS?

I will leave you alone now :) Thanks for sticking with me wedge much appreciated.

rocketmangb
10th April 2013, 00:59
15 MM is not in spec at all.

.427-.453 as I recall

I have had problems with the inlet needle in the past.

wedge
10th April 2013, 02:42
Yeah, I realized after I took off to do a job that I was thinking the 15 to 20 degree angle, so when I saw 15 I was duped. :doh Dohooh!

So anyway, it should be .413 to .453, which is 10.49 to 11.51 mm That 15 mm is way too low of a float setting

Also, when the carb is at the 17 degree angle note that the float looks like it is sitting parallel with the bowl gasket surface. The spring inside the float needle should not be collapsed when at the right angle, but it should be sealing off the flow of fuel.

Is the float sticking at all in it's travel?

Is that float needle neoprene tip looking good?

wedge
10th April 2013, 02:45
Yes I agree, I will look into a new fuel valve.

I will try a run if its dry! we got rid of bitter cold to now have rain!

Tomorrow I will set idle with some good temp in the bike. Just to be sure,

is it best to have the idle rpms higher or lower when setting IMS?

I will leave you alone now :) Thanks for sticking with me wedge much appreciated.
You will be able to hear the adjustment much easier if you keep the idle speed low as possible while tuning. Then set it where you like after the mix is adjusted right.

rocketmangb
10th April 2013, 03:04
The idle drop method is the best.

Takes a very good ear and or a tach to do it correctly !

Loony
12th April 2013, 22:20
Ok gents I didnt see the replies above till now.

Today After I had fitted the new fuel valve and set the float to 12mm at 17 Degrees the bike still had wet plugs at idle. I have black smoke on decel when the bike is hot. There is still a small amount of fuel coming out of the Needle Jet which decrreases with lower rpms. At 1000 rpms it's coming out in a small stream.

So today I added the new battery cables that I made and it definitely has a better spark than before.

But, the bike is still running rich at idle, so after I got moaned at for possibly pissing off the neighbours(FFS!), I decided to call it a day.

I got talking to my dad about the problem and we had a good think about WTF is going on with this bike.

The bike seems to run richer as it gets hotter. The RPMs start to drop and a quick rev and I get black smoke as the bike is returning to idle.

So we had another think and started to question how the tank is vented.

Lllllloooonnnggg story short we went out just now and found that the Fuel vapor valve is sticking. sticking enough that it took he hardest breath I could muster to make it open, we checked my dads vapor valve and his operates at much less pressure. Also the 90 degree connector on my bike is a bit loose so I tend to tyrap it in place creating a good seal. I also always brim the bike when refuelling, I get as much fuel as I can in and I always fill up the bike sitting on it, so its upright.

So next (tommorow) I have to try dads vapor valve in my bike and see what results we get.

I spotted a trouble shooter for harleys and one of the issues is poor fuel economy, a fix is check for restriction in the vent tubes and replace vapor valve!

http://www.nightrider.com/biketech/carb_troubleshooting.htm

I just hope this is the problem. As the tank is shaken and heated the pressure coming from the fuel in the tank has nowhere to escape except down the petcock and pressurising (maybe only a small amount) the float bowl and chucking fuel upwards, with the vibration from my new drag specs front rubbermounts, we beleive this has to be a problem.

What do you guys think?

rocketmangb
12th April 2013, 23:34
Just disconnect the vent under the tank

wedge
12th April 2013, 23:55
+1, disconnect the vent.

Don Burton
13th April 2013, 00:56
I haven't seen this thread in a few days but Wedge and Rocket are not steering you wrong.

Loony
13th April 2013, 13:09
Ok more news,

We tried swapping the vapour valves this morning and found that it didn't make much difference to the rich environment. I had it totally removed, swapped and every which way.

I dragged my dads bike out and we watched what went on with his. It was a similar situation. when idling the fuel was rising up the needle jet.

I still had a little work to do putting back the wiring neatly and in that time I took a look at the live cable under the heatshrink that connects the battery to the maxi fuse.

I found that the terminal was moving just slightly and didnt look as if it had been crimped properly. So I crimped and soldered the terminal on and refitted it to the bike.

I put the bike all back together and thought F I im going to ride it and see how it feels.

I took the bike for a 20 mile run to fuel up and it is running good, definitely better than before. It feels like its combusting properly.

So After a think on the way back, I reckon this is what I have been seeing and trying to diagnose wrongly.

When the bikes are cold the enrichener is used to get the bike started. once it runs for a bit I always close the enrichener and adjust the idle speed screw to allow the bike to idle without enrichener.

Once the bike is warmed up a bit, I usually re-adjust the idle screw and set rpms to around 950. Then I find after a few miles the rpms have picked up so I re-adjust idle screw back down to 950.

Wedge mentioned before that it sounded like the throttle valve is too far open and this is true.

When the bike is idling at 1000 rpm around cold the idle screw is adjusted and opens the throttle valve more increasing the vacuum in the carb mouth drawing fuel up the needle jet.

Add to fact that the air filter is not on the bike, it must be the extra draw of air creating the rich environment. As the bike comes up to running temps the rpms increase so I can back off the idle screw which closes the throttle valve, reducing the amount of air being sucked into carb then allowing the idle circuit to do its job.

I have set the IMS at 2 turns out and I will do a gas mileage run and see where I am at.

If I am getting the usual mileage I "think" the bike is sorted for now.

rocketmangb
13th April 2013, 17:18
Quit dicking with the idle speed !
They all do it !
Set it to 1050 rpm HOT
And live with whatever it is cold

Loony
13th April 2013, 18:33
Quit dicking with the idle speed !
They all do it !
Set it to 1050 rpm HOT
And live with whatever it is cold

Noted.

Ok, bike is running nice. It ran very well on the way in, It was pissing down on the way home but the bike has the V twin Howl back.

This has to be the best it has ever run since I bought it. Finally, wheres those bananas!

:banadanc:banana:bananinj:banarock:banagui:blueban an:carrot:banawala

wedge
13th April 2013, 23:48
Quit dicking with the idle speed !
They all do it !
Set it to 1050 rpm HOT
And live with whatever it is cold
Couldn-a-sed that better myself. Damn, I really liked that theory from day one, but I couldn't ride over to his place and help, so it took a while.

Loony... I'm glad you have a great dad that is willing to work with you like that.

Next time we will have to ride and meet in the middle for some brews and wrenching.

So, like George says, ride that thing until it's hot as the hubs of hell and then adjust it one last time. Then you just keep the enrichener out a little until it finishes warming up, or live with a little popping until it gets past that.

Oh, also, you still do need to do some plug readings to make sure you ended up right with the jetting. Where did you end up, 45 and 180, at about 2.5 to 3 turns out on the mix?

V twin howl? I like that. That's why my rev limiter is at 7000. I really like how it howls at around 6200 to 6500. Heck, much to my surprise a young guy on a red crotch rocket thought he was gonna out run me on the freeway on ramp the other day, and after he got on it I rolled it on all the way to 6500, and about when I hit third I had to get off it quick or I would have been up his exhaust pipe... He was still on it hard.

I figure it was inexperience on his part, but still felt good to let him experience that "howl" coming up on him that fast.

Loony
14th April 2013, 01:43
I can see what you are saying, but in reality it's not that black and white.

If I warmed my bike up using only the enrichener then I would poison most of the people on our estate. The thing just throws fuel out out the exhaust.

My only option is to get it running and either hold the throttle until its warm enough to run on its own or use the idle screw, well life gets in the way so I have other stuff to be doing whilst it warms up.

I thought is the whole purpose of having an extended screw was to allow quick adjustment.

http://cdn1.bigcommerce.com/server200/debc0/products/43/images/130/img-cvp-idl_sm__54514.1326477184.1280.1280.jpg

The cruise control doesn't work as well either because it will just sit there revving the crap out of it and waking up the rest of the people who haven't got benzine cancer from my bike starting up.

The thing that was throwing me was the fact that these bikes suck fuel up the main jet at idle when not hot, which didn't make sense to me before we got all sussed out. I never really looked at what the carb was doing from cold with the airfilter off because I didnt seem to have any problems. Now I bought the bike the previous owner had loctited the original IMS in the carb. I was lucky that I managed to drill it out and retap the thread to accept the EZ IMS screw, so with that in mind, I dont know what the hell this guy has done to anything else on the bike. The whole shim fiasco just threw me off in the wrong direction, I have not seen a CV carb with this setup anywhere.

It doesn't make sense to me that you have to effectively foul the plugs and fill the exhaust with unburnt fuel everytime before you go for a ride from cold?

Now I understand how it works I can live with it but I will continue to try not to use the enrichener as much as possible.

Anyway, It's all good, I am all for learning and that has certainly been happeining to me for the last 5 days, although the amount of brain cells I have lost through passively breathing petrol, brake cleaner, CO2, marlboro and tricoethylene, will probably have me forget most of it, so Thanks again for the help Gents. did I say Thanks?

I got a 120 mile ride tommorrow and I can't wait! Nice weather forecast, bit of cash in my pocket and a harley sportster that is working really well, don't get much better than that :)

wedge
15th April 2013, 18:25
Our theory here (myself and I assume George), is that if you get it hot and adjust it correctly then it won't be pulling fuel up the needle jet at idle while it's warming up. I think, and I assume he does also, that advancing the idle speed during warm up is causing that problem. So if you get it adjusted right and then start it with the enrichener, you just let it warm up for a short time, and then push that enrichener back in half way and take off. As soon as you get a stoplight or two away from home you push it all the way in, and it will be lean at that point at idle, and it will pop some especially as you decelerate until it gets warmed up good, then it should be OK until it cools down again.

If it refuses to work that way, then maybe you do have issues with that carb body, and someone will surely have a good unmolested carb that you can buy on the forum here.

My thought is that the only way it will be pulling from the main jet through that needle jet at idle is if the air speed is too high at idle (the throttle plate opened too far).

As far as why they make easy adjust screws... That's because they sell them and make money from those sales. It doesn't mean you need to play with them all the time, and in fact most of us don't have screws we can reach without a screw driver. I never readjust mine unless I make changes to the bike that require it.

When mine is cold it has a nice lope to it at idle, and the idle speed is around 900 or 950, then when warm I am at 1000 or a bit higher, and it looses some of that lope that we all like to hear.

My last mileage check was 54.16 mpg on a day where I was cruising all day on the freeway at 70 to 80 with just a couple of stops (one of which where the bike cooled down completely), so I'm not guzzling fuel by any means. I do have to mention that I attribute the mileage to the latest map I am running from Rico the "J4", which makes the bike cruise really nice and effortlessly (little or no throttle input at cruise), and it rips when I need to get on it.

Loony
15th April 2013, 21:26
Makes a lot of sense mate, I will experiment.

is 54.16 mpg US gallons? = 64 UK MPG HOLY f!!!!! thats dream land for me.

http://www.mpgtokpl.com/mpgustompguk.htm

I asked rico for the J4 too, running the jester 3, I almost 'have' to ride above 80mph because the bike just wants to go! :)

I am going to ask the mods to move this thread to the carb section, seeing as it has gone way off my original question and I don't think its fair for CV perf to host it here.

I do feel there is a lot of useful info for other members especially the ones like me who are learning.

wedge
15th April 2013, 22:57
Makes a lot of sense mate, I will experiment.

is 54.16 mpg US gallons? = 64 UK MPG HOLY f!!!!! thats dream land for me.

http://www.mpgtokpl.com/mpgustompguk.htm

I asked rico for the J4 too, running the jester 3, I almost 'have' to ride above 80mph because the bike just wants to go! :)

I am going to ask the mods to move this thread to the carb section, seeing as it has gone way off my original question and I don't think its fair for CV perf to host it here.

I do feel there is a lot of useful info for other members especially the ones like me who are learning.
The J3 was a good map too, but it lacked crispness down low just off idle, and when the bike started it did so in an anemic way, with a "rolling start". With the J4 it starts with a bang, and not in a bad way at all. Also as you accelerate slowly from a light you can hear and feel every pop pop, pop pop, and believe me it looses nothing on the top end. It's way more fun to ride with this map.

Loony
17th April 2013, 22:24
Cool, Bike is doing 50MPG UK, more than it's ever done before! J4 next and a plug drop here and there.

wedge
18th April 2013, 00:30
Don't be droppin those plugs, they always land on the strap and close up the gap... :laugh

We really need a smartass smiley.

Loony
22nd April 2013, 16:31
Ok J4 installed, I did a plug drop with good temps and the plug was a bit too white for my liking. I was wearing my half lid and could hear the engine more than usual, it sounded a bit tight and may have been pinking, so I switched to a 46 Pilot and That has definitely improved things. Still getting 50 MPG UK so mega happy!

I have a new EZ IMS on the way along with a CVP needle Jet. After these small mods complete the carb tweeks, I think I am done and cruising.:sporty:

wedge
22nd April 2013, 18:22
Ok J4 installed, I did a plug drop with good temps and the plug was a bit too white for my liking. I was wearing my half lid and could hear the engine more than usual, it sounded a bit tight and may have been pinking, so I switched to a 46 Pilot and That has definitely improved things. Still getting 50 MPG UK so mega happy!

I have a new EZ IMS on the way along with a CVP needle Jet. After these small mods complete the carb tweeks, I think I am done and cruising.:sporty:
What do you mean whiter than you like? You aren't trying to read mixture on the porcelain are you? If you are, then please read "Plug Reading 101" to see what you should really be looking for.

Loony
23rd April 2013, 12:12
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y252/lostplanet/DSC_0364_zps9af792e3.jpg (http://s7.photobucket.com/user/lostplanet/media/DSC_0364_zps9af792e3.jpg.html) http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y252/lostplanet/DSC_0363_zps100d6484.jpg (http://s7.photobucket.com/user/lostplanet/media/DSC_0363_zps100d6484.jpg.html) http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y252/lostplanet/DSC_0362_zpsa027de4b.jpg (http://s7.photobucket.com/user/lostplanet/media/DSC_0362_zpsa027de4b.jpg.html) http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y252/lostplanet/DSC_0361_zps87582c28.jpg (http://s7.photobucket.com/user/lostplanet/media/DSC_0361_zps87582c28.jpg.html)

Best pics I can get at the moment, these are all of the rear cylinder after fitting the 46 Pilot, after a 60 mile run. bike hasnt been started since that run.

Loony
23rd April 2013, 12:43
Pics of front cylinder,

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y252/lostplanet/DSC_0373_zps15adfd30.jpg (http://s7.photobucket.com/user/lostplanet/media/DSC_0373_zps15adfd30.jpg.html) http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y252/lostplanet/DSC_0372_zps6cfdde69.jpg (http://s7.photobucket.com/user/lostplanet/media/DSC_0372_zps6cfdde69.jpg.html) http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y252/lostplanet/DSC_0371_zpsda088577.jpg (http://s7.photobucket.com/user/lostplanet/media/DSC_0371_zpsda088577.jpg.html)

rocketmangb
23rd April 2013, 13:53
From the pics I would say its pretty close !

wedge
23rd April 2013, 18:52
It does look close, and the 46 pilot didn't make it go dead rich on the bottom either. I assume those are the old plugs after running them long enough to clean them up some right? What plugs are they?

Loony
23rd April 2013, 19:17
I have done around 200 miles on those plugs since I gave them a brush and clean up,

Yes, they were as is after a 120 mile run, I stopped to fill up at 60 miles and then rode home in bloody cold weather that night. The bike wasn't started again before I removed the plugs to take the pics. These started on Tesco 95 unleaded and then shell 95 unleaded

The plugs are NGK DCPR7EIX the iridium type. I did read somewhere that these plugs can run a bit hot and when I think about it the bike has always been very hot (as in engine temperature) after a good run, more so than when I had the stock NGK DCPR7E. That's not scientific, that's gut and bum feeling.

I have just cleaned up a used set of DCPR7E and put them in the bike out of interest really. Once I have a bit more money I will stick a new set of DCPR7E in and see how they run.

When you say close, looking at the upper/middle ring inside there is a bit of gray in there, is close rich or lean to make it right?

I would prefer to run the bike on the richer side for midrange running. I will tend to use the bike more in the hotter weather (when it turns up of course) where I will find myself sitting in traffic a fair amount of the time.

Most of my long runs are motorway 70/80 MPH for 100+ miles. Medium runs with passenger tend to be 50 miles with traffic and taking it easy at 60mph and below 30mph in town. Short runs tend to be 10-15 miles at 80+ then town 30mph.

wedge
23rd April 2013, 19:23
If anything it may be a bit lean as it gets on the needle from what I can see there, however, if it's not hesitating I'm sure it's really crisp in that range, so I wouldn't mess with it until I have spent more time on the bike to get a good feel of how it's running. The DCPR7E's here are only about $3.00 apiece, how does that compare to where you are?

Loony
23rd April 2013, 19:39
Plugs are pretty cheap here too, 6+ for a pair, But I am skint right now, really can't afford to go overdrawn, so they are low in the list.

I agree more miles needed. So far It's running nicely.

Loony
25th April 2013, 17:51
Well what can I say! For the first time since I took ownership of this bike, I have reached 100.3 on the odo and before the bike went onto reserve. I had to fill up today and put in 9.29 Liters.

I am crap at maths, I believe I am right in saying :

100.3 miles divided by 9.29 Liters = 10.79 MPL.

9.29 divided by 4.55 = 2.04 UK gallons

100.3 divided by 2.04 UK Gal = 49.0 UK MPG

I am used to having reserve cut in at 87! , so It does show that it's worth taking the time to get these bikes running right.

Loony
2nd May 2013, 15:11
Latest batch of plug pics, little concerend that the rear plug has some blistering on the porcelain and the bike has developed a decel popping.

I think this is down to exhaust seals leaking(i have new to fit), have already changed interconnect gasket and made little difference.

The flash on the camera has made the colours look duller, I will see if I can get some better coloured pics later.

These are all the same plugs just different light, the first ones are natural light and the second ones are with camera flash. I was trying to get the brown colour on the blister.

These plugs have around 30 miles before I shut off after a normal run.

Natural Light:
FRONT
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y252/lostplanet/FRONT1_zpsd03c4311.jpg (http://s7.photobucket.com/user/lostplanet/media/FRONT1_zpsd03c4311.jpg.html)

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y252/lostplanet/FRONT2_zpsc87d3b34.jpg (http://s7.photobucket.com/user/lostplanet/media/FRONT2_zpsc87d3b34.jpg.html)

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y252/lostplanet/FRONT3_zps68055d75.jpg (http://s7.photobucket.com/user/lostplanet/media/FRONT3_zps68055d75.jpg.html)

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y252/lostplanet/FRONT4_zps293a8662.jpg (http://s7.photobucket.com/user/lostplanet/media/FRONT4_zps293a8662.jpg.html)

REAR
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y252/lostplanet/REAR1_zps9fa15f8f.jpg (http://s7.photobucket.com/user/lostplanet/media/REAR1_zps9fa15f8f.jpg.html)

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y252/lostplanet/REAR2_zps34e15e1f.jpg (http://s7.photobucket.com/user/lostplanet/media/REAR2_zps34e15e1f.jpg.html)

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y252/lostplanet/REAR3_zps53411d64.jpg (http://s7.photobucket.com/user/lostplanet/media/REAR3_zps53411d64.jpg.html)

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y252/lostplanet/REAR4_zps468d9baf.jpg (http://s7.photobucket.com/user/lostplanet/media/REAR4_zps468d9baf.jpg.html)

Flash indoors,

FRONT
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y252/lostplanet/FRONTFLASH1_zps0d831547.jpg (http://s7.photobucket.com/user/lostplanet/media/FRONTFLASH1_zps0d831547.jpg.html)

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y252/lostplanet/FRONTFLASH2_zps4083366c.jpg (http://s7.photobucket.com/user/lostplanet/media/FRONTFLASH2_zps4083366c.jpg.html)

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y252/lostplanet/FRONTFLASH3_zps7c2e51ee.jpg (http://s7.photobucket.com/user/lostplanet/media/FRONTFLASH3_zps7c2e51ee.jpg.html)

REAR
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y252/lostplanet/REARFLASH1_zps46168248.jpg (http://s7.photobucket.com/user/lostplanet/media/REARFLASH1_zps46168248.jpg.html)

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y252/lostplanet/REARFLASH2_zpsbeb113cf.jpg (http://s7.photobucket.com/user/lostplanet/media/REARFLASH2_zpsbeb113cf.jpg.html)

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y252/lostplanet/REARFLASH3_zps2413dbda.jpg (http://s7.photobucket.com/user/lostplanet/media/REARFLASH3_zps2413dbda.jpg.html)

wedge
2nd May 2013, 19:35
Tell me more about those pictures.

The top 8 photo's look like they were done with the choke on, and the bottom 6 photo's look much better.

To break it down further, of the bottom 6, are the top 3 the front and the bottom 3 the rear jug?

Loony
2nd May 2013, 20:12
Wedge mate, I have mucked these pics up, I will edit them tonight.

In the mean time I have just found my new DCPR7E plugs have arrived.

Cheers

Loony
2nd May 2013, 22:01
Updated Post# 93

These used plugs(in the pics) have been through a lot of oil burning before I replaced the Valve stem oil seals, so although I cleaned them up they were nothing like a new plug so maybe the oil/blistering is getting burnt off the more miles I do.

Anyway I have new exhaust seals in now and the bike was still popping right at the end of decel like 3000 rpm to 1000 and stop.

New plugs are in, haven't started it or anything yet. Should have a good run tommorow so I will see what happens.

wedge
2nd May 2013, 22:55
What a difference in color depending on lighting. That's strange. The lower pictures look relatively good, and the top pictures look like the plugs are super rich or burning oil.

If they look the same to you, then you are looking to get them closer to the bottom pictures, but slightly richer than they appear in those shots.

rocketmangb
3rd May 2013, 01:39
I must concur with the Wedge !