....Ok I give up.. I searched till my eyes got blurry... Anybody know the Temperature range for the oil in the bag??
...Same question for the engine???

i beleive that the oil temp is going to vary by the outside temp, ( quite a bit too) and that there is no average temp. but im not a rocket scientist......just his helper

You'll get a lotta different opinions on that but ideally, you should be around 215-225 degrees. That's the point where the water vapor will boil off. It's whatcha want to happen. For that reason, I'm not a big fan of oil coolers.

You'll get a lotta different opinions on that but ideally, you should be around 215-225 degrees. That's the point where the water vapor will boil off. It's whatcha want to happen. For that reason, I'm not a big fan of oil coolers.

.....Yea ok...that jibes with what Ive heerd on the high side....Hows about the low side, if there is a low side? I got one of those Oil bag thermometers and Im thinking I might be running on the cool side.... Just trying for parameters mainly. Still doing some testing after my rebuild.

I have an 2003 1200 and mine dont ever get over 210? And I live in Florida
:tour

My '97 seldom got over 200, ran mostly around 190, and that was from the time it was an 883 through the Thunderstorm 1200 upgrade. Even at that, I had to really flog it in the summertime to get to 210. But then it wasn't squirting oil on the piston bottoms either.

...yea... here in AZ Ive had it up as high as 225.
Today outside temp was in the 80's... took the bike for a shake down run around the nieghborhood, it only warmed up to about 140... Im thinking thats low.

drove to work this morning outside air temp was 50....never made it over 150 degree oil temp. 30 minute ride..... if it was 90 outside i would be around 200 degrees, we are dealing with an air cooled engine and the outside air temperature has all the say in what your oil temperature is, dont worry about the temp to much, just change it often and you wont have any problems

Just read about oil in American Iron. They said as long as "Subtained operating temperatures don't go above 250 degrees F. everything is cool."
Mine never goes above 210 in the summer. Rode for 4 nours today, air temp was around 60 and the oil got to 175.
If you use Synthetic oil the temps can be a little higher.

....Well my main concern has been the debate over *Oil Cooler or Not Oil Cooler*
...Very convincing arguments on both side of the aisle. Talked to the HD stealer and ask them flat out...
*Whats Harleys stance on them (especially in AZ)*...
The reply was
*Well we SELL them*....
I said yea I know, but whats the motor companys STANCE. I was told that BASICALLY it boils down to personal preference. As long as ya dont run 'em in the winter and ya can maintain oil pressure (due to the extra volume of the cooler etc)... I never thought to ask 'em what would be considered to cold.
Parked at work my oil bag temp reached in excess of 100 degrees...by the time I fought thru rush hour traffic and got home I was pushing 240.... 20 mile ride.

So I was thinking to err on the side of caution....I bought one last year based on hearsay, I bought the JAGG set-up. And threw it in the parts bin to wait till I was ready for install. Of course, this whole year the bikes been down and I had plenty of time to do the research.

Now Im second guessing my decision.... Never worried about it in Western WA.
Im gonna keep it and use the by-pass for the winter riding. Now Im just trying to watch the temperture parameters for further reference. Took it out for the full bore shake down run... about 15 miles. 82 degrees out temp never went higher than 150 degrees. Still tweaking the timing and carb adjustments, but thats another tale....
Thanks for all the input... Chiba

I have an oil cooler with a thermostat, Harley's own. Oil never gets above 175 on a hot day, good thing is it will get to 150 deg fast, even on a cold day.

I have an oil cooler with a thermostat, Harley's own. Oil never gets above 175 on a hot day, good thing is it will get to 150 deg fast, even on a cold day.

X2

Definitivly get the thermostat.
I've made 25k so far with the same set up.
Engine seems to be happy.
Riding in rush hour at a 100+ degree air temp is no issue anymore. :brocoli

You'll get a lotta different opinions on that but ideally, you should be around 215-225 degrees. That's the point where the water vapor will boil off. It's whatcha want to happen. For that reason, I'm not a big fan of oil coolers.


I've heard this before and on the one hand it makes sense.

But on the other hand, water evaporates at room temperature too.

So is that a necessity?

I know that my Guzzi develops some rhinocerous smegma under the valve covers in the dead of winter (water contaminated oil that has NOT been warming enough to get rid of moisture), but it goes away when temperatures start to warm up again.

SOOOOOO at what temps should be worry about our oil or our motor?

Kev

PS, granted, we didn't add the oil temp dipstick until fall, but we haven't seen temps on it over 190 yet.

And, as I've said before, that's the average temp in the tank, NOT the temp of the oil when it is still in the motor.

....Well my main concern has been the debate over *Oil Cooler or Not Oil Cooler*
...Very convincing arguments on both side of the aisle. Talked to the HD stealer and ask them flat out...
*Whats Harleys stance on them (especially in AZ)*...
The reply was
*Well we SELL them*....
I said yea I know, but whats the motor companys STANCE. I was told that BASICALLY it boils down to personal preference. As long as ya dont run 'em in the winter and ya can maintain oil pressure (due to the extra volume of the cooler etc)... I never thought to ask 'em what would be considered to cold.
Parked at work my oil bag temp reached in excess of 100 degrees...by the time I fought thru rush hour traffic and got home I was pushing 240.... 20 mile ride.

So I was thinking to err on the side of caution....I bought one last year based on hearsay, I bought the JAGG set-up. And threw it in the parts bin to wait till I was ready for install. Of course, this whole year the bikes been down and I had plenty of time to do the research.

Now Im second guessing my decision.... Never worried about it in Western WA.
Im gonna keep it and use the by-pass for the winter riding. Now Im just trying to watch the temperture parameters for further reference. Took it out for the full bore shake down run... about 15 miles. 82 degrees out temp never went higher than 150 degrees. Still tweaking the timing and carb adjustments, but thats another tale....
Thanks for all the input... Chiba

I would just run synthetic for that extra protection when temps do get really high, but I wouldn't bother with the oil cooler.

K

....Nope... Dont like synthetics on older vehicules. Im just funny that way....besides I already bought the cooler, may as well try it for myself.

....Nope... Dont like synthetics on older vehicules. Im just funny that way....besides I already bought the cooler, may as well try it for myself.


That's cool...

I've only had problems with synthetics ONCE... it was in the early 90s or so when I went to it in a 78 R80/7 that already had 80k miles on the odo. I developed a rear main seal leak that sprayed all over my rear tire (and my ridding buddies, until they put me at the back) for a long ride home from a rallye shortly thereafter.

I swapped out the seal, then went back to the synths for it, no problem.

But yeah, if you got the cooler and you live in AZ I can't see any HARM in running it. I was just saying, if it were me, I'd just go with synths...

K

I've heard this before and on the one hand it makes sense.

But on the other hand, water evaporates at room temperature too.

So is that a necessity?

I know that my Guzzi develops some rhinocerous smegma under the valve covers in the dead of winter (water contaminated oil that has NOT been warming enough to get rid of moisture), but it goes away when temperatures start to warm up again.

SOOOOOO at what temps should be worry about our oil or our motor?

Kev

PS, granted, we didn't add the oil temp dipstick until fall, but we haven't seen temps on it over 190 yet.

And, as I've said before, that's the average temp in the tank, NOT the temp of the oil when it is still in the motor.

Water evaporates at room temp., but when its in an enclosed space, its another issue....also, the RATE of evaporation is important...

Also, regarding the average temps in the tank....given the rate of flow, I would imagine there is little difference between the temp in the bag and the temp in the engine, with the exception of momentary heating during its internal cycle...

I wouldn't recommend an oil cooler for any bike that doesn't reach SUSTAINED temps of 250+....

Water evaporates at room temp., but when its in an enclosed space, its another issue....also, the RATE of evaporation is important...

Also, regarding the average temps in the tank....given the rate of flow, I would imagine there is little difference between the temp in the bag and the temp in the engine, with the exception of momentary heating during its internal cycle...

I wouldn't recommend an oil cooler for any bike that doesn't reach SUSTAINED temps of 250+....


I dunno, once again, you're making me skeptical.

But let's think about it.

As soon as shut the motor down, the temp in the tank drops slightly, so that would potentially support your position that oil from the engine affects it.

Of course, that also might mean that the tank as affectively radiating heat and oil from the engine is quite possibly being cooled slightly upon entering the tank.

I know that I've read cylinder head temps are dramatically higher than the oil temps, and wouldn't all the oil eventually make it's way through the heads or be squirted on the pistons... so does oil see spikes of much higher temps INSIDE the motor, therefore sufficiently warming to purge of moisture, before returning to other cooler parts of the bike?

In my Guzzi example earlier, that rhinocerous smegma doesn't seem to make it's way to the crankcase... so even when dramatically overcooling the rocker covers, the oil that drains back through the motor see's high enough temperatures to purge it of moisture.

Just some more thoughts...

K

wouldn't the water vapor be burned off when the explosion occurs??

draw in air/fuel, compression, spark---explosion, exhaust.
when the spark ignites the fuel, big boom aka.. heat aka.. good bye water vapor???

wouldn't the water vapor be burned off when the explosion occurs??

draw in air/fuel, compression, spark---explosion, exhaust.
when the spark ignites the fuel, big boom aka.. heat aka.. good bye water vapor???

I wouldn't think so, necessarily...

That is a controlled combustion, and the oil in the engine is not necessarily near enough to that combustion...

Then again...I think we may ALL be splitting hairs to some degree here... :)

wouldn't the water vapor be burned off when the explosion occurs??

draw in air/fuel, compression, spark---explosion, exhaust.
when the spark ignites the fuel, big boom aka.. heat aka.. good bye water vapor???


but there shouldn't be any oil in the combustion chamber at that point, or it too would be burned.

I mean, maybe a TINY bit gets by the oil control rings, which helps to account for minimal oil consumption between oil changes, but the majority of the oil (and any moisture that might be present) should be shielded from the direct combustion.

Then again...I think we may ALL be splitting hairs to some degree here... :)

Agreed.

though we are doing it for a reason... to find out the acceptable limits of oil operating temps for the health of our motors, yes???

Agreed.

though we are doing it for a reason... to find out the acceptable limits of oil operating temps for the health of our motors, yes???

Yes, I just think that "acceptable limits" cannot necessarily be quantified specifically with the tools at our disposal...

Suffice it to say that too cool is generally considered unacceptable (and sans oil cooler, one would think this isn't an issue in most, if not all cases)

Also, clearly too hot is no good either....and generally, this (I believe) is considered to be at or near the breakdown temp of the lubricant....

....I always thought the water vapor was a oil contamination issue (thus a lubrication issue) not a combustion issue.... Or am I just repeating what someone else already covered.

Yes, I just think that "acceptable limits" cannot necessarily be quantified specifically with the tools at our disposal...

Suffice it to say that too cool is generally considered unacceptable (and sans oil cooler, one would think this isn't an issue in most, if not all cases)

Also, clearly too hot is no good either....and generally, this (I believe) is considered to be at or near the breakdown temp of the lubricant....


Ahhh pure logic.

Like the torque spec for every fastener.

Tight is right, too tight is broken.

I agree that an oil cooler is much ado about nothing for most people. If oil temps aren't going to be at or near break-down limit most of the time, forgetaboudit...

of course, if 250 is a breakdown limit, I'm thinking WABs probably gotten it pretty close (which was where my snyth suggestion came from)....

I started asking questions from the other end of the spectrum, since I regularly ride for a few months in 20-30 degree weather, at what point might I be potentially not letting the motor and oil warm sufficiently to reduce contamination (both from the formation of acids and combustion-byproduct nasties as well as moisture... perhaps moisture's a non-issue at cold temps and the nasties are not). I dunno, but I'd like to.

Kev

....Yea Kev... Thats another thing that kinda got me thinking about low temps. Back in WA I regularly rode during the winter and many was the time that the bike was barely able to warm up... Heads slightly warm to the touch.

Couple of things. Most bikes even in extreme conditions (winter/summer)either way should operate in the 170 to 210 F range on a regular long highway speed sustained ride. If you are really whipping it on a 100+ degree day or are sitting in stop and go traffic on same day, you may see your oil temps start to climb. It is not recommended that air cooled engines be subjected to parade duty on a regular basis. Not just because the oil temps start to climb, but because the heads get way the heck too hot. If you are forced to ride in traffic like this and notice your oil temps (in the bag) are constantly in the 240 plus range, then you might look for an oil cooler to help. Also, dump the dino oil and go with fully synthetic. Also might want to look at higher viscosity oils. On the other hand if you are riding a lot in the winter, switch to a thinner oil; again synthetic flow better cold. And keep your trips on the longer side. If you are running to the store for a loaf of bread, just tell the wife that you have to make sure you get the bike fully warmed up or it may damage it...."see you in an hour" :)

I think this thread started with someone with an S&S hot setup asking what is normal since he just put this engine together???? If so, it will be hotter than normal until it is fully broken in. New piston rings create a ton of heat.

Proper engine tuning also play a role in engine temps. If it isn't getting the right a/f ratio it can be more prone to over heating.

As a little leason the next time it is below 40 out, fire up the bike and watch the oil in your bag flow. You'll notice how slow it flows when the oil is cold and then how the flow speeds up as it warms up. Don't whip on a cold engine. Just ride it easy until oil temps are in the 100 degree plus range. It does take warmer temps to remove the moisture from the oil in the winter. Longer rides help. But try to keep the temps up as warm as possible for as long as possible. And change the oil a little more regularly.

Sustained temps over 240 in the bag and I'd be looking for a reason.

Proper engine tuning also play a role in engine temps. If it isn't getting the right a/f ratio it can be more prone to over heating.


This is the best answer to solve all your overheating problems. Proper
tuning is the key to longevity of the EVO motor. Dyno or syn this can be debated
all day, they are equally the same in most situations. Yes syn offers higher heat
protection, but it is all irrelevent if the bike isn't properly tuned.

.... I started this... And what I was looking for was a MINIMUM temp. What would a mininum temp be... I didnt *rebuild* the bike.... I pulled cam/timing covers, rocker covers... mainly to chase down a High Oil pressure problem, but thats another story.
Now with it back together and running my Oil Temp in the bag doesnt go higher than 150...bypassed oil cooler.
THRU the Oil cooler it only reachs about 130.
These seem low... thus the question.
Im NOT having a OVERHEATING problem.
Keeping in mind that all things have remained the same... with the exception of the addition of the oil cooler and the fact that my timing marks were remove during the powder coat process so Im back to looking for the sweet spot.
That begs another question, can ya *under tune* something so that it ends up running to cool??
Thanks all, for the input... Chiba

I think you guys are overdebating this. Don't the solid mounts consistently run at 165-185 degrees? Some of those people have over 100K miles on those bikes running at those temperatures. I even heard that some of them wouldn't get past 175 no matter how hard you rode them. Don't some liquid cooled engines run at those temperatures?

I've had an oil cooler without a thermostat on my bagger since it was almost new. I've ran dino oil in it for the first 100k, then switched to Mobil1 until my rebuild at 146k. My oil temp is usually around 170-180 degrees. In cold weather, it gets down to 140 even though I cover my cooler. In hot weather, it very rarely gets above 200 degrees. I think the longevety of my engine speaks for itself, and I'm sure I would have gone to 200k had I not tried to change my cylinder studs, but that's another story.

I'm certain the oil gets much hotter as it flows thru the engine. My girlfriends 2004 Low Rider runs around 230 degrees. Why so much hotter? Look at the oil bag location. On my 1988 bagger, it's nowhere near the engine. On the Low Rider, it's bolted to the engine. I think this helps support my theory that the oil gets hotter in the engine. Her oil gets hot going thru the engine, but does not get much chance to cool off since it does not get pumped far away from the engine as on my EVO. My EVO oil temps are measured in a bag far away from the motor. Same situation exists on a Sporty. The oil bag is nowhere near the engine, and the temps are going to be much cooler than the oil flowing inside the engine. Also dont forget the oil bag has a good volume of oil keeping itself cool. The small amount of oil coming in contact inside your motor with hot metal surfaces is instantly going to get very hot.

I think you guys are overdebating this. Don't the solid mounts consistently run at 165-185 degrees? Some of those people have over 100K miles on those bikes running at those temperatures. I even heard that some of them wouldn't get past 175 no matter how hard you rode them. Don't some liquid cooled engines run at those temperatures?


It's been too long since I had a solid mount, so I don't remember, but I think those temps sound familiar.

You're right that there are plenty of 4-stroke, water-cooled motors with thermostats in the 180 range, so if moisture in the oil isn't a problem for them, why would it be for us?

K

oh yeah, and I agree we're overdebating it... but what the heck ;)


and blueglide... that all seems to make sense...

I replaced the original equip. dipstick with the Harley temperature gauge dipstick and find that as the oil level drops, the temperature reading drops also due to less stick in the oil. At a quart low, it's barely in the oil. Make sure you have enough oil in the tank before you get excited about temp. readings.

Yes, cars do have 180 thermostats. But that is water temp, not oil temps. Car oil temps do reach over 220 degrees and hotter. And many newer trucks come with a factory oil cooler.

Anyway, the question was how cold it too cold. Well the engine is what it is. I am surprised that a bike in Mesa, AZ is not getting hot enough. When you checked into your high oil pressure, did you by chance restrict it too much? Have you looked into your oil bag to make sure the oil is flowing freely? 140F after a long ride in 80F weather is not right. Are the heads getting hot to the touch? Are you sure the dipstick is right? (might check it in boiling water).

Logical, but I bet someone will overlook it ... good point Phil.

Thanks shu... good info.

....High oil pressure was cause by a broke check ball. Actually blew the filter seal....had a post here on that about a year ago.
....Yep heads are hot to the touch, hot enough to not touch after the first time.
...Same dipstick as I always had and verified functional. And oil does expand from the cold level reading.
...Oil (normal slight mist) comes out the breather tubes (heads), both ends (in/out) of the cooler lines and moves in the bag itself.
....All APPEARS to be normal functioning.... with the exception of low temp reading.... curious to see how it does this summer though.

Wabiker,

Doctor's orders: Take it out on a long cruise at highway speeds 70 plus mph and see if the temps start to climb up to the 170 to 190 range. :)

Wabiker,

Doctor's orders: Take it out on a long cruise at highway speeds 70 plus mph and see if the temps start to climb up to the 170 to 190 range. :)

....Yep.... I leading up to that...just as soon as Im comfortable with the timing and carb adjustments!!! Well... and the registration and emission insp issue too....:D

I have a Lockhart cooler and a thermostatic valve that bypasses the cooler if the oil temp is below 180F on my Ironhead. I've had the oil hot enough to make the paint on the oilbag soft....

I have no cooler on the Evo, and my oil has never been above 215F.

I've had the oil hot enough to make the paint on the oilbag soft.....

Not good my friend.:wonderlan