Got '97 Hugger 883/1200 conv.(Wiseco) with 23k mi. Been a 1200 for the last 19k. I've been drooling over the Zippers catalogue for the last 2 yrs. Love dem Dyno charts in there.

Found a local indie that specializes in head work. His name is Charlie Lamantia of STREET SMART PERFORMANCE,. 15 Monmoth Ct., E. Northport ,N.Y., 631-261-2440.
He had a booth at a bike show at a local college last year. He explained extensively his approach to Sportster heads and cams. What sold me on him was that everything he espoused was nearly identical to what I read in the "SPORTSTER PERFORMANCE HANDBOOK' by Buzz Buzzelli. Great book by the way. Anyway....
Dropped the bike off today. Here's what it's getting;

Baisley 1200 valves Black Nitrite Coated(Intake and Exhaust)
Zippers Step-Lock Valve Guides
Headquarters Springs w/Titanium retainers & keepers
Ported, Polished and Flowed from 95 cfm to 130 cfm.
Head Milling for 10:1 Compression
S&S Chrome-Moly Adjustable Pushrods
Zippers Collapsable Pushrod Tubes w/Special Billet Bases and Seals
Andrews N-4 Cams
James Gaskets top and bottom

Should take about 2 weeks. Charlie say's this work will put about 75 hp to the rear wheel. It's currently been dyno'd at 60. As I said...
" I AM PSYCHED!!"

With all that work, I hope you get more than 75 at the wheel. I think he is underestimating a bit.

Barry is right. You will get much more than 75 hp.
70 hp You can get easily with wiseco and with stock head slightly modified!
Good luck!

Lukas
1997 883 - almost converted to 1200!!!
see my bike at http://moto.e-technologie.net/harleyopis.html

My god that should be an 85 HP set up. A set of stock Thunderstorms, cams and a good tune up can do 85.

Save your money. Do it yourself. Call Headquarters and have them do your 883 heads. For easily less than $1000 you can have 85 HP.

Adjustable pushrods? Billet bases? Man.... that's some pricey parts that you don't need.

The adjustable rods and tubes will allow me to do future cam swaps without pulling the heads.Charley says I'll get 85 hp at the crank and roughly 75 hp at the rear wheel.
If he is underestimating the numbers it's probably just good business. What customer wouldn't be happy when things turn out better? Wasn't one of the forum guys chasing 100 hp with a Nallins set up? He only goy 96 on the dyno and it was makin' him nuts.

I am with you maddog. I know these older sportsters are not that easy to get to 85. I would not be surprised if you exceed the 75 H.P. mark but the you should get 85 will just dissappoint. It might be time to send a ticket to crim and let him tune it to 85 or he pays for the ticket. What do you think Crim? Let us know if the 75 is the number. I think he will be really close.

I am with you maddog. I know these older sportsters are not that easy to get to 85. I would not be surprised if you exceed the 75 H.P. mark but the you should get 85 will just dissappoint. It might be time to send a ticket to crim and let him tune it to 85 or he pays for the ticket. What do you think Crim? Let us know if the 75 is the number. I think he will be really close.

I'm not all that hung up on numbers. Charley showed me his Flow Bench, tools, and original vs. reworked heads, valves, etc.
I just know that there will gobs of good stuff available when I whack the throttle. The fun factor should be substantial.
Buzzelli's book says this will be a tractable and reliable upgrade with one caveat. I have to control my self and not beat the balls off of it constantly.

God help me! That'll be the toughest part of all.

I know that mine is similar with a few more upgrades(higher comp.) and I am in the 80-85 h.p. range. You will be able to pull the front wheel off of the ground with the twist of the throttle at 3000 r.p.m. You should be able to get it up with just flicking the throttle at 3000 in second too assuming the rear tire does not break loose first. You will be plenty happy. It will be a lot of fun to ride now and passing is just a down shift away.

We couldn't pry any more specifics than this out of him. But we did get these details on his 1991 XL 883 five-speed. As note above, it carries many factory stock components: complete lower end including case; crankshaft, gearbox and camshafts. No cam degreeing had been performed, and we verified stock lift at valve (.405-inches) measured with a dial indicator. Coils, pickup, and ignition module are all stock.

The cylinders were bored to 1200cc with unmodified Wiseco pistons. It now has 10.5:1 actual compression ratio. The cylinder heads are stock H-D with ports and combustion chambers significantly reshaped and modified. The valve train has stock size 1200 valves, a reshaped exhaust valve, lightened retainers, pushrods, and lighter springs The carburetor is a 1988 Sportster 40mm Keihin CV without an accelerator pump, so chosen for tuning isolation, and modified in the mouth and air tract for improved air flow. Modifications were also made in the fuel delivery ports. We ran Number 185 main jet and changed two slide needles in testing.

The air cleaner has a K&N element, Screamin' Eagle housing with some further unshrouding of the element performed. As for ignition timing it's tuned for the torque peak at less than 35 degrees. The exhaust is Harley Davidson/Kerker individual tapered megaphones with crossover pipe. Bob's oil choice was Kendall GT-1 20w50; gas was Exxon 93 octane. So here's what Mr. Dyno found: Our testing started right after my test ride and was more impressive than even I'd thought. We did two runs for every change and report the best of these. Air temperature was 65 degrees at sea level.

Tests I &2: As delivered (N7 needle) 78.3 hp at 5800RPM, 80.2 foot-pounds torque at 4200RPM.

Tests 3 & 4: We change the needle in the carb to N8 This is a needle available on some 1340cc model carbs. Bob reports that for better drivability he prefers the N7 yet the N8 makes the most power. Results: 80.3 hp at 5800RPM. 82.3 foot-pounds torque at 4200RPM.

Tests 5 & 6: This time we used an open carb, with no filter or cover. Results: 84. hp at 5700RPM, 85.4 foot pounds torque at 4200RPM. What does this mean?

This is a bike that has the capability of mid-11seconds at the drag strip. It has gone 11.7s ETs at 113 mph ridden by the owner. With those numbers and its very useful low powerband, it's a bike well suited for the masses. In fact it's an IDEAL concept that could be fairly easily duplicated on a mass production level, and fills the need for those who are resistant to purchase it because of low performance levels.


Not bad for a bike with only some head work, carb and exhaust work.

True indeed, the other key here is the tuner sounds like he knows every trick in the book. Who cares how much power it makes without the air cleaner. I never ride without mine. The other interesting part is how many little things are taken into consideration. That is why I made the comment about crim coming and helping with the final tuning sudleties. Most of us go by feel and can't afford 10 dyno runs to optimize everything and that is probably why the man working on his bike guessed it at 75. Stock 1200's from mid nineties had about 48(883's were in the high 30's)at the rear wheel out the door. 75 is a huge increase. 75 h.p. is pretty easy but 85 is not. A bunch of tricks are required to get that last ten you guys are expecting. What might work one day will not work another when you are tuning to the maximum. That is why drag racers toune to the conditions of the day.

OK but 80.3HP and 82.3 TQ with factory 883 cams and AC is very impressive. Don't you agree?

OK but 80.3HP and 82.3 TQ with factory 883 cams and AC is very impressive. Don't you agree?

I certainly do.

I'd jump at the chance to run a bike on a dyno. It's been a few years.

I don't think there were any differences between the 1200 cams and the 883. I agree that the numbers are definitely great. I also know that few people would know to try that needle for the sporty. I also know that the guy is a tuning whiz most likely. Cams came up earlier on the 1250 upgrade post and the owner is really dissappointed with 75 h.p. Cams might be hurting him. A bunch of different things could be causeing this but the bottom line is unless you know how to tune your bike correctly you will only get a portion of the H.P. desired. I imagine that the head guy knows what the end result will be. He may get more but it is easier to get more and be happy then to try and get what you said with a bunch of hassle.

I'd be a bit concerned that the guy is lowballing the numbers. A 1200 conversion should be 70 HP. Add Thunderstorm heads and you've got to get 75. Something is making me suspicious.

Just because I'm paranoid, doesn't mean they aren't out to get me.

Ralphie, Crim, Barry...You guys are making my head spin...This guy got 70..that guy got 82..the other guy got 75...Crank hp or rear wheel? Thunderstorms..75 or 85 ?
Who's lowballing numbers? My guy? Suspicious of what? And if you are referring to my guy, and he gave me a lowball power figure, and I said "Wow, let's do it! Then what's there to be suspicious about?

O'k here goes. Crim was commenting on a point made about your headguy guessing on the low side. That is why he would be suspicious. Barry believes that good headwork should yield 80+ h.p. according to the data he provided. And I(ralphie) think his estimate is probably pretty close because of dyno results I had on my bike in the past after haveing similar work done. I think 75 is good however it could be a little higher like 80. So let us know how the bike dynos. I think you will be really happy with the result because it is a huge increase in power over stock. We will all be waiting for the results.

Thanks Ralphie..I'm gonna have the bike professionally dynotuned. I think you are probably closest to the mark...but follow my logic..I go to him..I ask whats your package for a guy that wants to keep his dished 9.5:1 Wiseco's? This, that, and the other thing he says..How much HP you got at the rear wheel? I say 60.. He says I'll get you 75....I say GREAT..FANTASTIC!..Go for it!
And this is suspicious because I might end up with even more? I'm not sure I follow.

Here's my line of thinking. My 1200 Sport made 78-79 with nothing but cams and a Mikuni carb and hacked up mufflers. Your guy is tossing all kinds of expensive parts and tells you to expect only 75.

Now keep in mind that I'm always focused on the biggest bang for the buck.

Headquarters could get you 75 HP with nothing more than porting your 883 heads and maybe a new set of pistons. You could probably pay someone to install it and still be around $1000. How much are the parts & labor for your guys conversion going to cost?

It's your money. Spend it as you see fit. I'm not trying to be a smart ass about it. But when I spend mine, I shop around until I'm extremely satisfied that I'm getting the most for my dollar.

OK were talkin numbers.... but has anyone thought to ask what sort of dyno this guy is usin for his numbers?????

Just a thought..

OK were talkin numbers.... but has anyone thought to ask what sort of dyno this guy is usin for his numbers?????

Just a thought..

DynoJet Chassis Dyno W/ an AFR analyzer

Here's my line of thinking. My 1200 Sport made 78-79 with nothing but cams and a Mikuni carb and hacked up mufflers. Your guy is tossing all kinds of expensive parts and tells you to expect only 75.

Now keep in mind that I'm always focused on the biggest bang for the buck.

Headquarters could get you 75 HP with nothing more than porting your 883 heads and maybe a new set of pistons. You could probably pay someone to install it and still be around $1000. How much are the parts & labor for your guys conversion going to cost?

It's your money. Spend it as you see fit. I'm not trying to be a smart ass about it. But when I spend mine, I shop around until I'm extremely satisfied that I'm getting the most for my dollar.

But Crim..You started with 10;1 comp., dual plugged heads, Hotter factory cam, and out of the factory w/70hp. You got a a 13 % increase.
His estimate is a minimum of 25 % increase for my bike. And yes, I am paying for some expensive parts, but from what I see some of the other guys lay out cash for, I'm not getting a bargain nor am I getting ripped off.
I happen to really like my Wiseco 9.5 Pistons, and this particular valve job and cams are designed to compliment them.
You go to the Sportster performance Handbook and you'll see many different ways to achieve the same end. Kit's by Carl's Speed Shop, Zippers, Headquarters, and Edelbrock. All different..Same end..Someone even got the J.E.T. job, or the Nallins package.
I personally like the idea of one person massaging my heads and installing parts that compliment them in a package that he has had success with many times before.
It also doesn't hurt that his hero is Dan Fitzmaurice of ZIPPERS.
P.S. I started this thread with "I'm Psyched!", not "Help me save money!"
Not that your input isn't accepted or appreciated. I thank you for that.

Why's everyone aurguing. Maddog is getting a performance upgrade, we should all be happy for him.

I think the low number that was given might be due to the dished pistons. Bump up the compression to 10:1 or 10.5:1 and you will see some better numbers. Downside is that you will have to run premium.

Of course not stevo. We like the ones that have the big numbers.

Who's arguing? It is just a difference of opinion as to his overall Hp numbers when complete.
We can all tell him to shop here or there but it all comes down to him. It's his money and if he likes the guy he is dealing with then he should be happy with his decision.
If he gets only 75 HP and he feels his bike is way better than before. WooHoo
If he gets 80 or 83 it's a bonus for him.

Maddog, if you are happy with the man and he makes you feel comfortable, ENJOY.

Who's arguing? It is just a difference of opinion as to his overall Hp numbers when complete.
We can all tell him to shop here or there but it all comes down to him. It's his money and if he likes the guy he is dealing with then he should be happy with his decision.
If he gets only 75 HP and he feels his bike is way better than before. WooHoo
If he gets 80 or 83 it's a bonus for him.

Maddog, if you are happy with the man and he makes you feel comfortable, ENJOY.

Barry...You got it!

at the end of the numbers on a dyno sheet don't mean squat...

The only REAL numbers are time cards.........

I am going to the track this year and find out how I do. They have open drag nites at the Memphis speedway on Thursdays and my new neighbor likes to drag so I am going to run her down the track and see what shes worth. I hope I have enough horse power to go really fast. LOL Hahahahahahahah

I envy you Ralphy.. There used to be a track on L.I., at West Hampton, But they folded and now it's Senior Condos (yeesh).
My guy Charlie say's my Sporty should do 12's. But Stevo's right, Dyno's are notoriously inconsistent do to the tremendous amount of variables...I'll be happy what ever my numbers are if I can just wipe the smile off the face of this one prick I know...
You know what I mean (?).

When is your sled due back? With all this discussion I am really interested to hear what actually comes off the back wheel :wonderlan

Yep me to

Grayfeather

When is your sled due back? With all this discussion I am really interested to hear what actually comes off the back wheel :wonderlan


About a week from today on the 29th. Then it's just a matter of getting a break in the weather, so I can get it over to the Dyno tuner's. They are calling for a blizzard from late today into tomorrow. 10 to 15". I must say I picked a good time to put the bike in a shop.

from what the weather looks like from here you might be lucky to get the bike back next week. looks like you guys might be snowd in for a few days. Good luck on both accounts, ( bike and weather )

Progress at last! I got the bike back a week ago last Sat. Pulls strong..I can tell the TQ peak is up higher. from 3k to 3.5k. PROBLEM..She sputters around 6k. Machine shop says severe under jetting. The Dyno Shop (Powerhouse Motor Cycles, W. Babylon NY) couldn't take me last week, so I'm bringing it in this morning at 10 am.
Other things I've noted..Idle's higher (characteristic of N-4 cams) and the exhaust note is of a slightly higher pitch plus there is a snapping sound at lower rpms.
Just before she craps out at 6k you can tell the front end wants to lift.

Still PSYCHED!!!

DAMN...Frickin' weather..Started to rain..Cross my fingers for next week. This sucks.
One of these days I'm gettin' a trailer.

Finally got the bike to the Dyno this week. Major disappointment.
Only got 64 HP and 73 TQ.
The tuner named 2 big problems.
FIRST, the accel pump dumps so much fuel that the AFR drops from 13:1 down to off the chart (less than 10:1) from 1500 rpm to 2500 rpm. The engine recovers and climbs till it hits the second problem.
SECOND, severe reversion from my T-Header at 5400 rpm starts pushing the charge back out of the cylinder. Apparently the T-Header, as is, is not a good match for this cam and head combination.
I had a long talk with Charlie, who did the heads, and Frank, the Dyno-Tuner. The concensus on the T-Header was that AR Power Cones would make the reversion managable. They agreed that I could do better than the Stock CV. Charlie says S&S Super E. Frank says Mikuni HSR42. I'm goin with the Mikuni. I think it will have more velocity and improve my TQ.
I'm putting in the Power Cones my self tomorrow. Wednesday Frank is gonna install the Mikuni and dial it in on the Dyno.
He says that between the Cones and high adjustability of the carb we should get a reasonably straight result on the AFR.

somethin doesn't add up there.......

You said in one post you have N2 cams and in your sig it says N4


What has been done to the carb??????

The reversion waves should be HELPING at that rpm not hindering

I still have the old dyno readouts from when Wiseco R&D dept. did the 1200 conversion on my 87 hugger in 1992. Base dyno run with stock everything was 50.1 lb. tq.@ 4600, 50.4 hp. @ 5900. Then with the only change being Wiseco 1200 conversion dished pistons, 73.5 lb.tq.@ 3900, 64.1 hp@ 5200. Then they put on a cv carb and supertrap pipes and got, 76.4 lb.tq.@ 4500, 68.1 hp.@ 5800.
The first two runs were stock pipes and stock 87 butterfly carb. It was hurting a bit at higher revs because of that. Finally the cv and supertrap, (wish they did one then the other then both) that opened up the higher revs a bit. This was a very bare bones conversion getting some nice power numbers. The dyno was the type where you take the rear wheel off and run the chain to a sprocket on the dyno. Whats that called? A water brake dyno? I'm not sure. :rolleyes:
Just thought I would post these numbers so you all would know what to expect from a cheeeeep conversion.
Ted :tour ps, these are real numbers that are very easy to attain, I dont really understand the wide range of high to low numbers that have been posted. :bump Just banging heads?

somethin doesn't add up there.......

You said in one post you have N2 cams and in your sig it says N4


What has been done to the carb??????

The reversion waves should be HELPING at that rpm not hindering

If I mentioned an N-2 it was a brain fart. The bike has N-4's.
The carb started out with a 45 slo and 180 main. 6 yrs ago when I did the conversion, I couldn't get the carb dialed in so I had a shop check it over. They jetted and put in a 'Thunder Nozzle' Accelerator Pump.
At one point I ran a Yost Kit for a while, so all the appropriate holes were drilled.
I had a Dyno tune 2 yrs ago, and they put ina new vaccuum piston and spring.
Frank (the Dyno-Tuner) did 5 jet changes and found that dropping the 180 to a 150 brought the motor life.
So, It has the 45 slo-3 turns out on mixture screw, 150 main with the needle all the way down due to a rich condition at higher rpm's. The Thunder Nozzle is not adjustable and is dumping way to much fuel. Charlie at the Head's shop noticed the same thing and mentioned it to me as well.
Frank told me that it's not that unusual to have to drop the main jetting with head and cam work because the engine becomes much more efficient and requires less fuel.
Frank is using a Dynojet 250 with AFR and a load somthing or other.

ahhhaa that explains the carb probs...

i've some across similar problems on carbs that have been played with a bit.....sometimes it's a case of throw 'em in the bin...

I'll go back and edit ya n2 to an n4 then

Frank told me that it's not that unusual to have to drop the main jetting with head and cam work because the engine becomes much more efficient and requires less fuel. :yikes I'll be really interested in seeing Stevo's response to this. If this is true, I need to do some rethinking about the way things work. Sounds whacked to me. I'd buy it if it was 180 to 170 or something, but 150?

It's correct in some instances..

If the port work is done correctly so that there is good swirl and good fuel homogenisation then you sometimes need less fuel as more of it is actually being burned correctly..

You often need to REDUCE ignition advance as well.....

A more efficient combustion chamber will burn quicker and therefore needs less advance.....


This is the reason I rarely if ever increase main jet sizes..... often I can drop them a size but I prefer to leave 'em a touch rich for street use

The reason he had to go to somethin ike a 150 was because of lots of other work that was done to the carb .... and most of it was working against itself..

The reason he had to go to somethin ike a 150 was because of lots of other work that was done to the carb .... and most of it was working against itself..

I think you're spot on Stevo...This carb is 8 yrs old and has had; Many jet changes, holes drilled, vaccuum pistons, lighter springs, heavier springs, A heavy spring with with 1 and a 1/2 coils cut off, red jet needle, blue jet needle, brass jet needle, '88 1200 jet needle, small accel pump, large accel pump (too large actually), Yost Power Tube in, Yost Power Tube out, etc. etc etc. It boggles the mind.
That's why I decided to go with the Mikuni. It is a superior carb, and doesn't need all the modifications that the CV did.

P.S. I didn't do all these mod's in various fits of creativity. They were done by different tuners, or by me as part of an installation like, Dynojet, Yost, Andrews Cams, ETC. They all have their own particular modification recommendations.

It's correct in some instances..

If the port work is done correctly so that there is good swirl and good fuel homogenisation then you sometimes need less fuel as more of it is actually being burned correctly..

You often need to REDUCE ignition advance as well.....

A more efficient combustion chamber will burn quicker and therefore needs less advance.....


This is the reason I rarely if ever increase main jet sizes..... often I can drop them a size but I prefer to leave 'em a touch rich for street useMakes sense now, and I believe it coming from you. All hail Stevo the Sportymaster ;)

:yikes I'll be really interested in seeing Stevo's response to this. If this is true, I need to do some rethinking about the way things work. Sounds whacked to me. I'd buy it if it was 180 to 170 or something, but 150?


pq...Look at it this way.. Granted Stevo knows his shit.. but you're standing there with an experienced Dynotuner and he hands you a computer printout SHOWING the Air/Fuel Ratio. I should think he's lying or incompetent? Should
I suspect he makes a bigger profit on a 150 Jet over a 180 ?
The drop in jet size surprised me too, but the explaination he gave made perfect sense. I put the bike through some paces today, with the best "dial in" he could manage till I put the power cones in tomorrow, and he puts the Mikuni this Wed.
The bike pulled strong to 6500 rpm, but I felt a slight fluttering or stutter near the peak. It was very faint but definitely there.
Before the Dynotune, the bike flattened out at 5500 rpm and stayed there sputtering.
When the day comes that you need a Dyno, how are you gonna get it over to Australia for Stevo to dial in ? Finding a good local guy can be a bitch.
My shop specialize's in HD engines and heads. He has to do right by his customers or word of mouth puts him out of business. He recommends this particular Dynotuner. If this Tuner is a dick, how does that serve his customers? You find a quality shop, and you follow their recommendations.

I ran a 42/160 with dif needle on 2nd slot forever because it was the right jet and needle combo for me. I had a bazillion mods and that was what I needed to keep the black poof out of the exhaust. I eventually went to a jetted down s&s and have not done anything to it in 5 years. It runs great.

Maddog and everyone else

AT the end of the day you need to find a GOOD local tuner...

No-one can tune it from away from the bike correctly....

One of the reason I usually ask so many questions if I'm gonna give an answer is to try and build a an accurate of a picture as possible....and still I can only give guide lines as I'm not there...

A lot of times on here I can give a reasonably close guide but if you were to drop the bike over to me I could get more in a 2 minute ride than I'm gonna get out of hours of conversation on here...

Occasionally things will flag up as being way off...... but often there is other things at play than I can see.

This cv is a prime example of too much will stuff it...

With what's been done to this carb it is so far from standard that ya just throw the book out of the window...... you do NOT however throw out how it works...

There is a strong relationship between the needle and the main jet...... if you change the needle then you often should change the main....

the emulsion tube changes the fuel delivery at certain points

Another couple of things that also have an effect are fuel bowl level and

air bleed jet sizes if the high speed air bleed jets have been drilled it will affect the fuel delivery up top.....




In this instance a Mikuni is a bloody good idea..... but let this be a good lesson to everyone else ....... if ya go too far, sometimes ya can't come back

the CV needs stuff all to get it to work right.... it is a good carby, just needs to be jetted to suit your application..........all these bloody "kits" are designed to relieve you of $$$$ and are NOT nescessary.....

I'm running a stock CV on mine with stock main, stock spring, stock slide drilled ONLY 2 number sizes ..NOT anywhere near 0.125", stock needle up about 0.030" and few very minor little tweaks...
and it runs my bike to 11 second 1/4 miles in FULL street trim as a daily rider/tourer

Now if my 11 second sporty ONLY needs that .... what makes anyone think that their 12 - 14 second slug is gonna need a lighter slide or spring or a "kit"????????

This thread serves as yet another example of why I have no desire to fix what is not broken by using Dynojet, Yost, Thunderslide, or Thunderjet. The carb works pretty darn good by itself if the correct jets are used for the engine mods. Thanks for hammering that home Stevo!

in the jan 2005 hot bike on page 22 it says the cv is good to about 90- 100 hp range

Wednesday Frank is gonna install the Mikuni and dial it in on the Dyno.

And the results are?

I'd be a bit concerned that the guy is lowballing the numbers. A 1200 conversion should be 70 HP. Add Thunderstorm heads and you've got to get 75. Something is making me suspicious.

Just because I'm paranoid, doesn't mean they aren't out to get me.

Take a gander at this:


http://www.xlforum.net/forums/showthread.php?p=62190#post62190