According to the article in the latest AIM any one who changes there 1978 or later exhaust system is liable to and up to $10,000 fine what are everyones thought on this subject???:(

According to the article in the latest AIM any one who changes there 1978 or later exhaust system is liable to and up to $10,000 fine what are everyones thought on this subject???:(

Our thoughts are: That sucks. That really sucks :smoke

Oh yeah, I can just see some jerk, small town, justice of the peace, having a ball with that.:shhhh

Just shooting off my mouth here, but I think it mainly applies to (or is mainly enforced) on shops that do the mod.

And like klown says, it sucks.

Bill me...

The AIM Article was very good. As the ones the had before about the subject. The key is will the EPA or the state that we live in enforce the law. Will they have inspections. I have 3 bikes that are subject to fines. One I bought from the dealer new that had been modified. So who is at fault on that one. There is a lot of gray area. Are there loop holes? I am glad I just bought 74 Shovel. Ken

Those type of fines have been around for years.
I have yet to see or hear of anyone that has been fined.
The laws in this country are a joke.

yeah i got hit with one of those once....

...The laws in this country are a joke.
Not "joke".

Plague

Dang, if I'm to be screwed.....might as well pull the baffles out and let it be a good screwing......:D

Well that sucks EH! Here in the great white north we don't have that problem,
At least not yet EH!!

Not worried about it and I still have my Original exhaust just in case.


5061

EPA really only regulates manufacturers. http://www.epa.gov/otaq/regs/roadbike/420f03046.pdf

That's some good info. Makes me glad to have an 05.

EPA really only regulates manufacturers. http://www.epa.gov/otaq/regs/roadbike/420f03046.pdf

The link is a FAQ of 2006 and future regulations. The last paragraph starting on page 2 states "However, as established under the Clean Air Act in 1977, motorcycle owners cannot legally make modifications that would cause the emissions to exceed the applicable standards, and they cannot remove or disable emission control devices installed by the manufacturer."

It's been illegal since 1977.

I work with EPA regulations all day long due to new "freon laws" in the HVAC field....there are not ENOUGH "EPA" cops to enforce a FU:censor law....so FU:censor EM all and bill me :smoke

Sounds pretty much the same as the "beanie" helmet law. They are illegal but no one enforces the law. I have been given a warning for the non DOT helmet and my understanding is that if I receive a second, (may have to happen in the same town / jurisdiction), then I will receive a ticket.

In any case, the exhaust is clearly marked. The key to enforcement is testing. Prior to smog checks we pretty much did what ever we wanted to out cars. Nowadays I get nervous just running the test, (I always pass).

PAAAALLEEAASSEE!! this is crazy. I work with heavy equipment, and I can tell you. I put out more with a bulldozer in 10 minutes than 10 years of my sporty.

I guess when I got that screamin deal on the last 05 at the stealer I got a better deal than I thought, I would be pi--ed if I had a 06 right now.

They gotta catch me!!!!! :laugh :laugh :laugh :laugh :laugh












:sofa

PAAAALLEEAASSEE!! this is crazy. I work with heavy equipment, and I can tell you. I put out more with a bulldozer in 10 minutes than 10 years of my sporty.

If the EPA was serious about polution, they would go after the highway diesel trucks. Maybe they think the black sooty smoke is good for us.

The link is a FAQ of 2006 and future regulations. The last paragraph starting on page 2 states "However, as established under the Clean Air Act in 1977, motorcycle owners cannot legally make modifications that would cause the emissions to exceed the applicable standards, and they cannot remove or disable emission control devices installed by the manufacturer."

It's been illegal since 1977.

In the '80's the EPA did bust some muffler shops for removing the catalyic converters from cars. The fine for cars is $25,000 per offense.

It is correct that the EPA doesn't have enough inspectors to enforce the removal/modification law. What will evolve is the Federal Government will threaten to withhold highway funds in high polution area until the state comes up with a comprehensive pollution reduction plan that the EPA buys into. Annual smog inspections which in addition to the sniffer test on a dyno also includes a visual inspection of the equipment. If you don't pass either one, you don't get a smog inspection sticker and then the local police bust you. for driving without an inspection sticker. Barney Fife loves it.

I don't like air pollution, but when they start going after motorcycles.............

PAAAALLEEAASSEE!! this is crazy. I work with heavy equipment, and I can tell you. I put out more with a bulldozer in 10 minutes than 10 years of my sporty.I bet my lawnmower puts out more polution than my Sporty too.

Gazza

Truck drivers are forced to shut down when parked now. No idle laws in effect in most major cities. Problem there is sometimes you can shut um off and you cant turn um back on! Most guys would rather burn a gallon an hour to stay comfy and save on starters and $1000 service calls.

Good ol days are gone for them. No they are just gunna add generators to thier rigs that probably put out more garbage than the trucks!

I think its a $5000 dollar fine to idle for longer than 15 minutes. Mabey $500...I can remember.

Adios

The link is a FAQ of 2006 and future regulations. The last paragraph starting on page 2 states "However, as established under the Clean Air Act in 1977, motorcycle owners cannot legally make modifications that would cause the emissions to exceed the applicable standards, and they cannot remove or disable emission control devices installed by the manufacturer."

It's been illegal since 1977.

But pipes and mufflers aren't emission control devices, so messing with them isn't a problem (at least emissions-wise, EPA does have sound regulations, but they apply to manufacturers as well). That's why most "cat-back" (from the catalyst to the tailpipe) car aftermarket exhaust is 49-state legal today.

The 77 rule is that if your bike comes with a catalyst, you can't remove/disable that. Not every bike will have a catalyst, even after 06. Manufacturers will try to meet emissions requirements with EFI and other engineering because it's cheaper, plus the EPA measures the levels across a product line. Harley may well prefer to add catalysts to the more expensive bikes (at least before 2010) to keep the whole MoCo's number down without raising cost on the lower-end.

The Clean Air Act is referenced to Air pollution and has nothing to do with Noise pollution.
The current noise regulations, as defined by the Noise Control Act of 1972 (codifed in 49 United States Code 4901 - 4918) was basicly rendered null in 1981 when the Feds withdrew funding for the agency.

http://home.netvista.net/~hpb/epaonac3.htmlolution.

You will still be able to make your bike as loud as you want as long as you not degrade the air pollution control systems integraity. Aftermarket manufactures are all ready working on systems to pump up the volume on the Catalytic equiped bikes.... The Feds have is not established funding for Noise Control enforcement... No funds, No law...

Because the Environmental Protection Agency remains legally responsible
for enforcing regulations issued under the Noise Control Act of 1972 even
though funding for these activities were terminated, and because the Noise
Control Act of 1972 prohibits State and local governments from regulating
noise sources in many situations, noise abatement programs across the
country lie dormant.

My 4 wheel ride is a Caddie Eldorado, with dual high flow catalytic convertors 3" in 4" out, straight pipe no mufflers.... It's real loud and meets the clean air regs.....

They can :censor :censor me, because I don't give a :censor what they do, they ain't gettin no mother-:censor 10k from this :censor :censor :censor .

They can suck my :censor and :censor lick my :censor all :censor day long...

Those :censor suckin :censor -wipes at the EPA couldn't find a :censor with a :censor :censor , anyway....

Wooooo!

I feel better now! How about you?! :smoke

The Clean Air Act is referenced to Air pollution and has nothing to do with Noise pollution.
The current noise regulations, as defined by the Noise Control Act of 1972 (codifed in 49 United States Code 4901 - 4918) was basicly rendered null in 1981 when the Feds withdrew funding for the agency.


If we're going down this path, you should be aware that, while the government is unlikely to enforce the Noise Control Act against you, the law does create a "private right of action" against anyone who violates it. Violation includes the use of a controlled product (like a motorcycle) after modification to alter noise controls. So if you have a neighbor who's annoyed by your drag pipes, he can sue you in Fed court and stands to collect his attorneys fees from you.

So make sure anyone who complains about your bike isn't an out-of-work lawyer before you tell them to :censor off.

They can :censor :censor me, because I don't give a :censor what they do, they ain't gettin no mother-:censor 10k from this :censor :censor :censor .

They can suck my :censor and :censor lick my :censor all :censor day long...

Those :censor suckin :censor -wipes at the EPA couldn't find a :censor with a :censor :censor , anyway....

Wooooo!

I feel better now! How about you?! :smoke
:roflblack :roflblack :roflblack :roflblack :roflblack :roflblack
Glad you fell f:censor g better now

The EPA needs to go bark up the SUV tree, those damn things are getting bigger and less effiecent every year. Not only that, but I cant recall how many times a somebody in a Hummer has tried to take over my lane while I'm still in it. Im sure there are some people that need a big ass friggn hummer, but not in the damn city and not at the grocery stores. I mean come on, now instead of mini-vans we got people driving 2 tons of steal to haul around their kids and groceries. IMO of course....

:censor 'em the EPA can kiss my :censor !!

It is correct that the EPA doesn't have enough inspectors to enforce the removal/modification law. What will evolve is the Federal Government will threaten to withhold highway funds in high polution area until the state comes up with a comprehensive pollution reduction plan that the EPA buys into.

Ain't that some sad :censor ! Despite the fact that bikes probably rank somewhere between a Toyota Prius and a skateboard in terms of pollution, they choose to go after us. But, as was previously mentioned, they don't have enough thugs to come after us directly, so they bully those who can bully us. Not only is this a blatant money-grab, it is the laziest :censor ing attempt at it I've seen in years!

Here's the big problem: this is just one of a growing number of laws that will (more than likely) be enforced primarily, if not exclusively, on bikes. Cager-land never hears about these laws, because they don't affect the population at large, so they endorse the changes. They leave us to hang, and then they wonder why we get so pi:censor ed off at them. Always was two worlds, always will be.

On a side note (and at the risk of setting of a :censor :censor landslide), this thread seems to be reminiscent of that episode of South Park, where they counted how many times they said :censor (I think the show was somewhere over 200 - exceptional for a 20 minute show!). I'm sure we're coming to (if not already well over) a forum record for the number of times the ":censor" smiley has been used in a topic.

Ain't that some sad :censor ! Despite the fact that bikes probably rank somewhere between a Toyota Prius and a skateboard in terms of pollution, they choose to go after us.

If you believe the EPA, bikes pollute more (mainly hydrocarbons/VOCs) per mile than cars and light trucks (including SUVs) several times over. Two-stroke lawnmowers are much worse than motorcycles, and other four-stroke off-road engines are about the same per cu. inch as motorcycles.

I know almost all of us like to modify our bikes to suit our own wants. Alot of what we do here in the U.S. is technically illegal according to EPA laws ... we all know it, but up until now, not much has been enforced. We can generally all get away with doing at least some form of stage 1 / paying the tax to our bikes, and still keep them licensed to ride on the street.

It sounds like the EPA is presently working on tightening things up to the point that about all we'll be able to change on our bikes is cosmetic. I get the impression that if things go through as they stand, we're all pretty much going to be subject to inspections that, if our bikes don't pass, will keep us from keeping them registered to ride on the street. This means if we've done ANYTHING to make our bikes run any differently than the way we bought them, we're in trouble. This will adversely affect, not only us, but thousands of shops and manufactures that participate in the motorcyle industry.

The Motorcycle Riders Foundation (MRF) is currently in discussion with the EPA and the SBA in an attempt to keep this from going down as planned. They are circulating a questionare that will gather real data on manufacturers of after-market parts, shops, and riders, so that they can show the EPA that they will be hurting the industry if they force us to leave our bikes as we bought them.

I would suggest that anyone interested in this issue have a look at these links, which are copies of articles on MRF's website that have been running in American Iron in the last couple of issues. The first one I listed has a copy of the questionare:

http://www.mrf.org/pdf/EPA-AI-2.pdf
http://www.mrf.org/pdf/EPA-AI-1.pdf

Personally, I feel this is an issue in which the only thing needed for evil EPA to win is for good folks to do nothing.

I don't know, what do you all think of what is said articles?

I've heard a couple different stories on if my bike has a cat or not. I have a 2006 XL1200C bought in KY not CA. Does it have a cat in the front muffler? I just replaced my exhaust and both the front and back look identical.

This epa crap is BS! I would really like to see a study about the actual pollutants of a bike vs other vehicles. But a shop can pay a non-compliance tax and not have to conform? It's all about the friggin money, not the environment.

EPA really only regulates manufacturers. http://www.epa.gov/otaq/regs/roadbike/420f03046.pdf

From this I'm over my "usefull limit" in years and miles.:shhhh

http://xlforum.net/photopost/data/500/medium/Mike_s_Sporty2.JPG

Damn TX this a fine looking scoot!:smoke

Its all crap. How many exhaust dealers would fold on account they didn't meet the specs for noise.

:censor the:censor epa they can kiss my:censor !!!!!!!

Well, I agree, the EPA is full of it, they can also kiss my rosie red watusi, however...

If they go through with what the article is saying, we will all have to get our bikes inspected once a year (here in Texas, many of us have to do this with our cars now) to determine that we haven't done something "prohibited" to them, such as:

- Change out our air cleaner to something other than what came on the bike.
- Re-jet our carb.
- Put a wider rear tire on.
- Change our final drive ratio.
- Convert our 883 to 1200.
- Anything that might make the engine put out more emissions at any given speed than it did from the factory. Period.

Yep, it all s u x. I for one don't relish taking all the stuff off my bike I spent good money on and sticking the stock stuff back on just so I can get my new registration every year. But according to what I've been reading, that's exactly whats going to happen if we - That's me and you - don't take a stand about this right now!

I'm going to fill out the questionare and send it in. I think if enough us do this, we might stand half a chance of being able to keep our bikes the way we want them, or at least some semblance thereof.

That's important to you. I know, I read alot of your posts. I drool over the photos of your bikes you put up here. I look at your dyno charts.

And anyway, it beats just standing around letting our elected servants protect us from ourselves.

I never can understand how a country that tries hard to protect the rights of people in other countries can end up being !!!!!!!! over like this.

I know they haven't really seemed to enforce most of the current EPA laws but I think they are serious this time. They will probably offer tax incentives to the individual states for compliance.

Sorry guys.

Kong

Like Jon said, it's ridiculous that the current administration still rewards people for buying big fat gas guzzling SUVs, but will pick on a tiny percent of the population who rides on 2 wheels. Perhaps they see all of the execs riding Harleys now, and $$$ signs are lighting up in their eyes regarding fines.

Write your local rep, and let them know how you feel. Find your local rep here:
http://www.congress.org/congressorg/directory/congdir.tt?command=congdir

Write your local rep, and let them know how you feel. Find your local rep here:
http://www.congress.org/congressorg/directory/congdir.tt?command=congdir
Yep, and fill out this form and send it in:

http://www.mrf.org/pdf/EPA-AI-2.pdf

It's anonymous, and the MRF is acting as a lobbying organization on our behalf. There's power in numbers, folks.

(woohoo, I've been a member since Nov. 2004 and just hit 50 posts.)

Everybody's getting excited about this now, but this legislation was literally passed in the 70s, with the requirements for cars and bikes phased in on a very specific schedule.

Rumor has it (FWIW) that it'll start being enforced on 2006 & later bikes... which is probably why H-D has switched their lines to FI. But who knows? I imagine they'll start with the dealers, as they did originally with cars, and go from there.

Yep, and fill out this form and send it in:

http://www.mrf.org/pdf/EPA-AI-2.pdf

It's anonymous, and the MRF is acting as a lobbying organization on our behalf. There's power in numbers, folks.

(woohoo, I've been a member since Nov. 2004 and just hit 50 posts.)

That form was printed in the most recent AIM. I made 20 photocopies
and gave them to 4 diff shops and 10 individuals.
The more the merrier.

2wheeltodd

Thanks a Bunch!!!!!!:D

Bill me...

:roflblack:roflblack:roflblack:roflblack:roflblack :roflblack

... and the check's in the mail.

:roflblack:roflblack:roflblack:roflblack:roflblack :roflblack:roflblack

Well that sucks EH! Here in the great white north we don't have that problem,
At least not yet EH!!
Just give our retards in gov't, whose 'job' it is to "make-up" new laws, time, because that's what were paying them our tax money for and they will adopt the same type of nonsense here in short order.

They can :censor :censor me, because I don't give a :censor what they do, they ain't gettin no mother-:censor 10k from this :censor :censor :censor .

They can suck my :censor and :censor lick my :censor all :censor day long...

Those :censor suckin :censor -wipes at the EPA couldn't find a :censor with a :censor :censor , anyway....

Wooooo!

I feel better now! How about you?! :smoke
now tell us how you really feel...:laugh

At some point the gubmint assumed the role of Supreme Protector. They are accountable to no one. A bunch of do-gooder liberal a-holes trying to justify their existence and soak up more money from the public trough. And that's all this "environmental" stuff is about: money. These fuks would have us all go to work and pay taxes to support an ever expanding army of bureaucrats,judges,police and lawyers whose job is to protect the public. They feel that they are more enlightened about the world and want to make most of your decisions for you. After all, we are too stupid to act intelligently. And in a sense they are RIGHT. After all, we put those jerks in power by action or inaction. It's OUR gubmint. Well,it used to be.

So imagine how much they HATE what riding a motorcycle represents! Total individual responsibility, freedom and FUN. Speed. Noise. Exhillaration. FTW,etc. Now with the cycle thing getting pretty big,no wonder they're after us with every restriction possible. I have no answer. Enjoy it now, these are the good old days. A motorcycle 20 years from now might be some totally tamperproof appliance. The big manufacturers are all for it.

Just like CB radios in the mid 70's and ultra lights, let them try. Up the rebels.

Live to Ride and Ride to Live

Reb

According to the article in the latest AIM any one who changes there 1978 or later exhaust system is liable to and up to $10,000 fine what are everyones thought on this subject???:(

First: The EPA is not a law enforcement agency. It is however a regulatory agency and generally uses the States Attorney General or the U.S. Attorney to do their dirty deeds.

Second: The fines to which you refer typically apply to service centers, manufacturers and dealers, not the average public.

Third: Each State has its own laws in regard to exhaust modifications. An example of this would be the Commonwealth of Kentucky where I live now. The law here will allow you to modify your exhaust providing it does not make any noise that would be louder than originally intended. One problem, nobody here cares so the law isn't enforced. In Southern California, which is where I came from, I know of 2 dealers that were slammed with non compliance. I also know of 2 cities where loud or modified exhausts are clearly being looked at for compliance. They would be Hollywood and Huntington Beach. Laguna Beach along PCH was getting pretty bad as well.

What really Pi:censor es me off about this whole nonsense is how MoCo is bending over like a $10.00 crack hoe to comply with all this,instead of taking a stand for us and itself, like the symbol of American freedom it is, should.

Loud Pipes Save Lives Let Them Try And Sue Me Fta

txsporty sez:
> They gotta catch me
at the bar down at the end of the road...
:-(
-W

The world today is full of too many bosses, too many rules, and too little time for riding!

Huh? Mine came this way Officer... (and it did):p